NCAA Supreme Court case

[thyme4change]

I have long struggled with the slavery adjacent system of the NCAA for major sports. I am glad to see this ruling and can't wait to see how this will change college sports. And nine to nobody is a good sign that the NCAA has been wrong for a long time.

Supreme Court Backs Payments to Student-Athletes nyti.ms/3zGlrfz

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court unanimously ruled on Monday that the N.C.A.A. cannot bar relatively modest payments to student-athletes in the name of amateurism. The decision, based on antitrust law, came as the business model of college sports is under increasing pressure.

Last year, a federal appeals court ruled that the N.C.A.A. was not free to limit benefits tied to education for Division I football and basketball players. The decision allowed payments for things like musical instruments, scientific equipment, postgraduate scholarships, tutoring, study abroad, academic awards and internships. It did not permit the outright payment of salaries.

The court rejected the N.C.A.A.’s argument that compensating athletes would alienate sports fans who prize students’ amateur status. “Uncapping certain education-related benefits would preserve consumer demand for college athletics just as well as the challenged rules do,” Chief Judge Sidney R. Thomas wrote for a unanimous three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, in San Francisco.

[justme]

Not that I was a big college football fan before, but I really had no desire to give them money once all this was being talked about. A kid got kicked off my alma mater's team because the NCAA decided the income he got from his youtube channel (that was mostly about day in the life of a football player) counted as income. Meanwhile I think he was just using it to cover stuff the scholarship didn't. 

[Tennesseer]

Good decision.  About time.

[TheOtherMe]

It's not just football players this applies to.  I think it applies to all sports.

[jelloshots4all]

I have mixed feelings about this.

In college I worked for a Div 1 men's basketball office, so I saw the "extras" they received.  It's not just tuition and room and board.  Well at least at my University.

[TheOtherMe]

No  it isn't just tuition, room and board but their lives are controlled 365 days a year by the coaching staff.  

Classes have to not be at practice time which has meant some athletes either choosing to attend school elsewhere, stop playing altogether or change majors.

[chiver78]

Jun 21, 2021 10:49:30 GMT -5 justme said:

Not that I was a big college football fan before, but I really had no desire to give them money once all this was being talked about. A kid got kicked off my alma mater's team because the NCAA decided the income he got from his youtube channel (that was mostly about day in the life of a football player) counted as income. Meanwhile I think he was just using it to cover stuff the scholarship didn't. 

I wonder if they will go back and reconsider decisions like this one you mention, and the one in this The Player's Tribune piece from this past April. from the link, 

I thought the article was about some recent infraction by one of the basketball teams or another large program. But after I clicked on the link I found myself suddenly reading about me and my teammates — about how we’d received funds that aided our athletic accomplishments.



I was just … shocked.



According to the investigation, my teammate and I had unknowingly received $252 each in extra scholarship money intended for a landline phone jack.



Think about that for a second. A phone jack.

this decision is long overdue. 

[TheOtherMe]

I also think athletic department is way too much when compared to what is spent on academics.  Supposedly college exists for academics, not athletics.  You don't see professors making millions of dollars. 

[thyme4change]

Jun 21, 2021 12:44:06 GMT -5 jelloshots4all said:

I have mixed feelings about this.

In college I worked for a Div 1 men's basketball office, so I saw the "extras" they received.  It's not just tuition and room and board.  Well at least at my University.

What percentage of your players actually graduated, or really got any kind of education?

[thyme4change]

Jun 21, 2021 17:07:35 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

I also think athletic department is way too much when compared to what is spent on academics.  Supposedly college exists for academics, not athletics.  You don't see professors making millions of dollars. 

Professors probably aren't generating the kind of money that big time programs do.

[TheOtherMe]

Academics are not producing the $ but that is the purpose of academics.

[jelloshots4all]

Jun 21, 2021 17:32:24 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jun 21, 2021 12:44:06 GMT -5 jelloshots4all said:

I have mixed feelings about this.

In college I worked for a Div 1 men's basketball office, so I saw the "extras" they received.  It's not just tuition and room and board.  Well at least at my University.

What percentage of your players actually graduated, or really got any kind of education?

I would say 90-95% graduated.  And got good jobs (I'm still friends with many of them and see them annually at a charity golf outing (14 yrs now)).

A couple played in the NBA, several professional overseas leagues, a couple are sports commentators, and they all had an "in" with alumni in getting jobs (even summer work).

There is a lot of behind the scenes most people don't know about.

[TheOtherMe]

That is what happens to a lot of players when they graduate.  Those connections are used in particularly for football, men's and women's basketball.  

[justme]

Honestly while I do think there's some behind the scenes stuff - I'm still quite positive that most athletes from poor families are way worse off than those that aren't.

I think any college athlete that gets injured should be eligible for workers comp - if that kid gets injured making the college millions they owe them. And more than just paying for the rest of their education - which they lose their scholarship if they can't play. If a student can't play due to an injury in practice, training, or a game the school should 100% at minimum be required to continue paying their scholarship.

I also think schools should be required to take out a $0 out of pocket health insurance policy for every student athlete. Or at least be 100% on the hook for all sport injuries and rehabilitation. And honestly if the kid becomes disabled to some extent they owe them some money.

The kids should also be given some spending money. I earned a fellowship that paid my tuition and gave me some money. I just think it's ridiculous to require the students to have a full load (so at minimum 48 hours a week towards studying) plus all the time they devote to the sport and not give them money to do things besides eat at the mess hall.

[jelloshots4all]

Jun 21, 2021 22:51:12 GMT -5 justme said:

Honestly while I do think there's some behind the scenes stuff - I'm still quite positive that most athletes from poor families are way worse off than those that aren't.

I think any college athlete that gets injured should be eligible for workers comp - if that kid gets injured making the college millions they owe them. And more than just paying for the rest of their education - which they lose their scholarship if they can't play. If a student can't play due to an injury in practice, training, or a game the school should 100% at minimum be required to continue paying their scholarship.

I also think schools should be required to take out a $0 out of pocket health insurance policy for every student athlete. Or at least be 100% on the hook for all sport injuries and rehabilitation. And honestly if the kid becomes disabled to some extent they owe them some money.

The kids should also be given some spending money. I earned a fellowship that paid my tuition and gave me some money. I just think it's ridiculous to require the students to have a full load (so at minimum 48 hours a week towards studying) plus all the time they devote to the sport and not give them money to do things besides eat at the mess hall.

I agree about the health insurance, but the teams do have athletic trainers and access to the student health center (like all students).

The athlete's can work during the summer (again at alumni companies that pay them above average then most other college kids), so they do earn spending money.

And at my University, the school contracted with an on campus restaurant, so every night they had dinner there where they could order ribs, chicken, pasta, home style meals (turkey, potatoes, gravy, meatloaf, etc). Plus bread, salads and home made milk shakes or malts.  Definitely weren't just eating in the mess hall.

The school also supplied them with shoes and clothes (athletic wear- pants, shorts, t-shirts, sweats, etc).  They had "study hall" if they needed it with individual tutors.

[jelloshots4all]

quote "I'm still quite positive that most athletes from poor families are way worse off than those that aren't." quote

But most of those athletes from poor families never would have had the opportunity for a good college education without sports.  So their scholarships were a form of "compensation" as well- probably well over $20k/year

[TheOtherMe]

The players at the University I support work at the various camps the different sports have.  Most do not have other jobs.  They go home for a brief visit.  They are now back on campus this year taking classes and working out in the best training facilities the donor's money could buy.


Athletes eat in a dedicated space all together so they get to know each other since many don't have time to meet other students long enough to become friends.  They do get fed some awesome food.  After eating out of carry out bags for the last school year, I'm sure they will appreciate the better food.  They also have meetings, some individual, about food and what is good for their body.

The school has taken mental health seriously after our Heisman Trophy winner committed suicide due to CTE.  It started as a pilot program and it must have been successful because they now have 6 therapists on staff.

Sports apparel companies have contracts with schools.  They do not want for shoes, workout clothes, jackets, etc.  

The one that amazed me when I first learned of it was the goody bags they get at conference tournaments.  25 years ago it was a boom box.  Now it's an iPad.  

They all have Apple computers so I think those are coming from the Athletic Department.  All university students are not provided with a computer.  Athletes don't get to keep the computers when they leave.

Study Table even happens on the road.  With today's technology, exams are taken on the road.  

Student athletes have to live in the dorm as freshmen.  Even that isn't the normal student experience.  Their roommates are other athletes (usually from their own sport).  Football used to have it's own freshmen dorm.  Don't know if they still due.  Basketball and volleyball used to have their own wing of a dorm.  They really don't mingle with the student body.  

As far as health care, I agree they should be covered for life for any injury suffered while practicing, working out or in games.  A lot of athletes are still having surgery on injuries years later and they get to pay for it.  

We did have one athlete who developed a heart issue as a freshman.  The university took her to the best cardiologists in the area and she had heart surgery.  After recovery, she only played a few minutes a game towards the end of the season.  She repaid us by transferring where she could get more playing time.  She wasn't getting playing time because of her heart issue.  She said when she transferred she was not fully recovered.  Without the heart issue, she would have worked her way in to the starting lineup as a freshman.  She definitely would have been a starter as a sophomore, but she repaid the school for the surgery by transferring.

We had a men's basketball player suffer a stroke while home for Christmas his freshmen year.  Once his doctors at home released him to return to campus, he was closely monitored.  He had a speech therapist to help him learn to talk again.  He had a physical therapist.  He did not play for two years and then went back very cautiously.  He got an extra year for his medical problems.  He is very grateful and is a senior this season.  

He often tweets that without the help the school gave him after his stroke, he wouldn't still be playing basketball.

In the media guide, he says he someday wants to coach there.

Yes, they get a lot of stuff but it's not cash and the schools make millions.  They do not get a % of those millions.  They need to be paid.  I don't know how much, but they need to be paid.

[jelloshots4all]

If the athlete's are more concerned about money than an education, have them go straight to the pro's.

I am a huge sports fan, but again mixed feelings on college athlete's being paid. 

Where do you draw the line?  Limit how much they can be paid?  A % of revenue from sports is given to athlete's?  Larger schools with a huge/wealthy booster base earn more?  Based on their individual stats?  Team record?  Divvied up by playing time?

It's good in theory (I guess), but someone needs to show me a plan before I'm on board.

[jelloshots4all]

If you've never watched the documentary/movie Hoop Dreams I recommend it

[billisonboard]

EDIT: I was working on this with many distractions and didn't see jelloshots4all's post.

I see a need to have answers to a number of questions set before this "Pandora's Box" is thrown wide open. Some examples I can think of: Should pay be sport specific? Should all members of the team be paid the same? If not the same, by position/playing time/individual contract? Are bonuses for things like being named player of the week/all league/Heisman winner allowed? Should pay increase by class? Is there a different status for non-scholarship athletes? Is the pay rate set by individual schools, leagues, universal by division, or universal for all divisions? I am sure there are others that those intimately involved would come up with as well.

Professional leagues have established rules on pay to help maintain competitiveness. If similar steps aren't taken at the collegiate level as direct player payments become the rule, it will make "National Champion" something to be bought instead of won.

[justme]

Jun 22, 2021 9:26:18 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

EDIT: I was working on this with many distractions and didn't see jelloshots4all's post.

I see a need to have answers to a number of questions set before this "Pandora's Box" is thrown wide open. Some examples I can think of: Should pay be sport specific? Should all members of the team be paid the same? If not the same, by position/playing time/individual contract? Are bonuses for things like being named player of the week/all league/Heisman winner allowed? Should pay increase by class? Is there a different status for non-scholarship athletes? Is the pay rate set by individual schools, leagues, universal by division, or universal for all divisions? I am sure there are others that those intimately involved would come up with as well.

Professional leagues have established rules on pay to help maintain competitiveness. If similar steps aren't taken at the collegiate level as direct player payments become the rule, it will make "National Champion" something to be bought instead of won.

I mean it's not like they're not bought now.

[souldoubt]

Jun 22, 2021 8:58:03 GMT -5 jelloshots4all said:

If the athlete's are more concerned about money than an education, have them go straight to the pro's.

I am a huge sports fan, but again mixed feelings on college athlete's being paid. 

Where do you draw the line?  Limit how much they can be paid?  A % of revenue from sports is given to athlete's?  Larger schools with a huge/wealthy booster base earn more?  Based on their individual stats?  Team record?  Divvied up by playing time?

It's good in theory (I guess), but someone needs to show me a plan before I'm on board.

The vast majority of college athletes will never go pro and of those that do many of them aren't in a position to go pro for a few years, i.e. football players who can't go pro until after their sophomore season based on the current rules, basketball/baseball/hockey/soccer players who may not get drafted until after their junior or even senior seasons and so on.  Watch the NCAA tourney and every year we see good college players who make their schools a lot of money and they aren't going to end up making money as pros.  I don't know about a payment structure but the fact that some players can't afford food or even gas when they make their schools millions tells me there's something wrong with the current structure.  I realize they're getting an education out of it but the NCAA has made hundreds of billions off of college athletes and their likenesses for years while student athletes have been penalized for things as simple as getting a free meal.  The answer lies somewhere between the current structure of the NCAA making billions off of student athletes and student athletes getting penalized for ridiculous violations.

[justme]

At the very least the NCAA needs to pass on the money for using their likeness. If they're in a game that's sold - they get some money. If their jerseys are sold they should get some money like pros do. I don't think there's any moral way you could argue that NCAA/colleges should be able to keep 100% of the profits when they're using someone's name/face to sell stuff. 

[billisonboard]

Jun 22, 2021 10:56:39 GMT -5 justme said:

At the very least the NCAA needs to pass on the money for using their likeness. If they're in a game that's sold - they get some money. If their jerseys are sold they should get some money like pros do. I don't think there's any moral way you could argue that NCAA/colleges should be able to keep 100% of the profits when they're using someone's name/face to sell stuff. 

This issue is being adressed somewhat: College Athletes Are Now Closer To Getting Paid After NCAA Board OKs Plan

In a significant shift for college sports, the NCAA's top governing body said it supports a rule change allowing student-athletes to profit from their name, image and likeness, so long as the college or university they attend does not pay them directly.

[justme]

Jun 22, 2021 11:05:44 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jun 22, 2021 10:56:39 GMT -5 justme said:

At the very least the NCAA needs to pass on the money for using their likeness. If they're in a game that's sold - they get some money. If their jerseys are sold they should get some money like pros do. I don't think there's any moral way you could argue that NCAA/colleges should be able to keep 100% of the profits when they're using someone's name/face to sell stuff. 

This issue is being adressed somewhat: College Athletes Are Now Closer To Getting Paid After NCAA Board OKs Plan

In a significant shift for college sports, the NCAA's top governing body said it supports a rule change allowing student-athletes to profit from their name, image and likeness, so long as the college or university they attend does not pay them directly.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of talk about it. But does it really take them a year to change the rules? And if the school can't pay them directly...I guess if it's a Nike jersey that the school sells with a name on it that Nike is the one providing the money to the student. 

[jelloshots4all]

Jun 22, 2021 10:53:27 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

Jun 22, 2021 8:58:03 GMT -5 jelloshots4all said:

If the athlete's are more concerned about money than an education, have them go straight to the pro's.

I am a huge sports fan, but again mixed feelings on college athlete's being paid. 

Where do you draw the line?  Limit how much they can be paid?  A % of revenue from sports is given to athlete's?  Larger schools with a huge/wealthy booster base earn more?  Based on their individual stats?  Team record?  Divvied up by playing time?

It's good in theory (I guess), but someone needs to show me a plan before I'm on board.

The vast majority of college athletes will never go pro and of those that do many of them aren't in a position to go pro for a few years, i.e. football players who can't go pro until after their sophomore season based on the current rules, basketball/baseball/hockey/soccer players who may not get drafted until after their junior or even senior seasons and so on.  Watch the NCAA tourney and every year we see good college players who make their schools a lot of money and they aren't going to end up making money as pros.  I don't know about a payment structure but the fact that some players can't afford food or even gas when they make their schools millions tells me there's something wrong with the current structure.  I realize they're getting an education out of it but the NCAA has made hundreds of billions off of college athletes and their likenesses for years while student athletes have been penalized for things as simple as getting a free meal.  The answer lies somewhere between the current structure of the NCAA making billions off of student athletes and student athletes getting penalized for ridiculous violations.

Obviously I know many college athletes never play in the pros.  

Change the rules to allow any HS athlete to go to the Pro's/minors.  Easier than coming up with an equitable compensation structure.

It will bring up racial issues (many of the top men's basketball player are black), how do we make it equitable?  The men's sports typically have more fan attendance, so do the women athletes get paid less because they bring in less revenue to the school (gender inequalities).

Again- offer a plan and I will listen (to general anyone responding).

[billisonboard]

Jun 22, 2021 11:09:22 GMT -5 justme said:

Jun 22, 2021 11:05:44 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

This issue is being adressed somewhat: College Athletes Are Now Closer To Getting Paid After NCAA Board OKs Plan

In a significant shift for college sports, the NCAA's top governing body said it supports a rule change allowing student-athletes to profit from their name, image and likeness, so long as the college or university they attend does not pay them directly.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of talk about it. But does it really take them a year to change the rules? And if the school can't pay them directly...I guess if it's a Nike jersey that the school sells with a name on it that Nike is the one providing the money to the student. 

I think the complexities make slow movement necessary.

Jerseys are tricky. The name on the back rightfully belongs to the individual but if it is a replica of the official school jersey, everything else including historical recognition of it as that school's image belongs to the school. Plus if a manufacturer has had their hand in developing the design, that is another layer. 

[billisonboard]

Jun 22, 2021 11:15:09 GMT -5 jelloshots4all said:

Jun 22, 2021 10:53:27 GMT -5 souldoubt said:

The vast majority of college athletes will never go pro and of those that do many of them aren't in a position to go pro for a few years, i.e. football players who can't go pro until after their sophomore season based on the current rules, basketball/baseball/hockey/soccer players who may not get drafted until after their junior or even senior seasons and so on.  Watch the NCAA tourney and every year we see good college players who make their schools a lot of money and they aren't going to end up making money as pros.  I don't know about a payment structure but the fact that some players can't afford food or even gas when they make their schools millions tells me there's something wrong with the current structure.  I realize they're getting an education out of it but the NCAA has made hundreds of billions off of college athletes and their likenesses for years while student athletes have been penalized for things as simple as getting a free meal.  The answer lies somewhere between the current structure of the NCAA making billions off of student athletes and student athletes getting penalized for ridiculous violations.

Obviously I know many college athletes never play in the pros.  

Change the rules to allow any HS athlete to go to the Pro's/minors.  Easier than coming up with an equitable compensation structure.

It will bring up racial issues (many of the top men's basketball player are black), how do we make it equitable?  The men's sports typically have more fan attendance, so do the women athletes get paid less because they bring in less revenue to the school (gender inequalities).

Again- offer a plan and I will listen (to general anyone responding).

I would offer a plan but right now I am working on a plan for solving a much less difficult issue. However as soon as I finalize my plan for lasting peace in the Middle East, I will work on solving this problem.

[justme]

Jun 22, 2021 11:35:00 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jun 22, 2021 11:09:22 GMT -5 justme said:

Yeah, I've seen a lot of talk about it. But does it really take them a year to change the rules? And if the school can't pay them directly...I guess if it's a Nike jersey that the school sells with a name on it that Nike is the one providing the money to the student. 

I think the complexities make slow movement necessary.

Jerseys are tricky. The name on the back rightfully belongs to the individual but if it is a replica of the official school jersey, everything else including historical recognition of it as that school's image belongs to the school. Plus if a manufacturer has had their hand in developing the design, that is another layer. 

Is it though? Pro sports somehow manage to pass money onto the athletes for jerseys sold while taking into account the recognition of the pro team and the brand of the jersey. Copy/paste how pro jersey sells are a split up and move on. I think the pro's just have a % of all sales into one big bucket and then it's split evenly by every player in the league. Now the pro licensing is central - I don't know if college is by NCAA or conference or school. Prob not be a large amount per athlete.

[wvugurl26]

I think it all varies from school to school. My Alma mater is not a super small school. They are in a Division I, Power 5 conference. The athletic department definitely makes money from merchandise, TV rights, etc.

The basketball players there do not get free shoes. They may get a few pairs but not enough to last a full season with the wear and tear on them.

Yes, they get an education but they have no time for a job. There are expenses not covered. The basketball team gets home at 2am, 3am (all season long) from a road game and are expected in an 8am class. There's no time to go to a team meal.

I've said give them all a stipend and be done with it. As to the calculations, I don't know how but figure it out. These schools and the NCAA, make hundreds of millions on these athletes.