Privacy v Public Health

[pulmonarymd]

Public health law is different than any other part of healthcare law. I can actually get you confined to your house. It can limit your employment opportunities, unless you would like a meal prepared by Typhoid Mary. Exposing others to a potentially deadly disease is not an issue of freedom. It is the equivalent of being able to do what you want as long as it is only you being put at risk.

The forced sterilization analogy is not equivalent

[Happy prose]

My job is mandating the vaccine, unless you have a medical reason and letter from doctor, or religious reason. In my head, I already know the employees that will fight this, because they fight every rule. When we all come back to work, which will be soon, I don't want to wear a mask in the office anymore. I think the non vaccinated should take their own precautions. (Like stay out of my office!) No members of the public are permitted to enter our office. The maintenance staff will also be vaccinated before we return. 

[billisonboard]

Please note I don't support holding anyone down and snipping nor injecting them. But what is the argument?
Who should be forced to undergo sterilization? People who ... (fill in the blank).
Who should be forced to undergo vaccination? People. No blank to fill in.

And that is the basic difference in the two situations. That is why I am comfortable with "if ..., then ..." when it comes to COVID vaccinations.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Feb 28, 2021 17:44:34 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Please note I don't support holding anyone down and snipping nor injecting them. But what is the argument?
Who should be forced to undergo sterilization? People who ... (fill in the blank).
Who should be forced to undergo vaccination? People. No blank to fill in.

And that is the basic difference in the two situations. That is why I am comfortable with "if ..., then ..." when it comes to COVID vaccinations.

You may not be forced to get vaccinated, but it can be a mandate of employment.  I know that the hospital system where I went through my nightmare required it of all employees, or they'd be fired.  I found this out chatting with one of my gurney runners who was taking me someplace, and was masked.  I asked him about it, he told me that he had missed the hospital's flu vaccination day as he was on vacation.  He had so many days to comply with getting vaccinated, or he was out of a job.  He had gotten back from vacation the night before, and he was planning on showing up in employee health when he got off that day to get vaccinated.

I didn't ask him what happened if you were allergic to eggs or something else.  

[billisonboard]

Feb 28, 2021 17:51:07 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Feb 28, 2021 17:44:34 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Please note I don't support holding anyone down and snipping nor injecting them. But what is the argument?
Who should be forced to undergo sterilization? People who ... (fill in the blank).
Who should be forced to undergo vaccination? People. No blank to fill in.

And that is the basic difference in the two situations. That is why I am comfortable with "if ..., then ..." when it comes to COVID vaccinations.

You may not be forced to get vaccinated, but it can be a mandate of employment.  I know that the hospital system where I went through my nightmare required it of all employees, or they'd be fired.  I found this out chatting with one of my gurney runners who was taking me someplace, and was masked.  I asked him about it, he told me that he had missed the hospital's flu vaccination day as he was on vacation.  He had so many days to comply with getting vaccinated, or he was out of a job.  He had gotten back from vacation the night before, and he was planning on showing up in employee health when he got off that day to get vaccinated.

I didn't ask him what happened if you were allergic to eggs or something else.  

"If you wish to be employed here, then you need to be vaccinated." I see the allergy issue as one of you need to find a new occupation if you can't fill the job requirements.

[Happy prose]

I 100% agree with the vax being mandated for employment. 
ETA- I'll go so far as to say if the office allows non vaccinated people in, it should be an OSHA violation.

[pulmonarymd]

Feb 28, 2021 18:02:57 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Feb 28, 2021 17:51:07 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

You may not be forced to get vaccinated, but it can be a mandate of employment.  I know that the hospital system where I went through my nightmare required it of all employees, or they'd be fired.  I found this out chatting with one of my gurney runners who was taking me someplace, and was masked.  I asked him about it, he told me that he had missed the hospital's flu vaccination day as he was on vacation.  He had so many days to comply with getting vaccinated, or he was out of a job.  He had gotten back from vacation the night before, and he was planning on showing up in employee health when he got off that day to get vaccinated.

I didn't ask him what happened if you were allergic to eggs or something else.  

"If you wish to be employed here, then you need to be vaccinated." I see the allergy issue as one of you need to find a new occupation if you can't fill the job requirements.

At my hospital, if you could not be vaccinated you wore a mask from 12/1 to 4/1. I suspect it would violate the ADA if you fired someone with a documented egg allergy

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Feb 28, 2021 17:51:07 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Feb 28, 2021 17:44:34 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Please note I don't support holding anyone down and snipping nor injecting them. But what is the argument?
Who should be forced to undergo sterilization? People who ... (fill in the blank).
Who should be forced to undergo vaccination? People. No blank to fill in.

And that is the basic difference in the two situations. That is why I am comfortable with "if ..., then ..." when it comes to COVID vaccinations.

You may not be forced to get vaccinated, but it can be a mandate of employment.  I know that the hospital system where I went through my nightmare required it of all employees, or they'd be fired.  I found this out chatting with one of my gurney runners who was taking me someplace, and was masked.  I asked him about it, he told me that he had missed the hospital's flu vaccination day as he was on vacation.  He had so many days to comply with getting vaccinated, or he was out of a job.  He had gotten back from vacation the night before, and he was planning on showing up in employee health when he got off that day to get vaccinated.

I didn't ask him what happened if you were allergic to eggs or something else.  

Nebraska Med and UNMC went back to mandatory flu shots during swine flu unless you had a documented medical reason that you could provide proof of.

In that case I believe full PPE was required when in contact with patients during flu season.

I remember reading a article about a woman who refused to do either as a nurse and got fired. Rightly so in my opinion.

If your freedom is more important than getting a vaccine or wearing PPE to protect your patients find other employment.

I don't really see companies like mine requiring the vaccine. They don't require the flu shot and treat COVID the same. They might eventually offer clinics for it but likely won't be mandatory.

But I'm betting the hospitals will and the universities that have medical, nursing and pharmacy schools attached like UNMC and Creighton.

[justme]

Feb 28, 2021 14:45:12 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I can see having to get tested, but forcing people to get vaccinated crosses a line. You guys can twist it up all you like, but those restrictions are more than you are acknowledging. It's on par with sterilizing people because you don't think they should reproduce.

Except testing isn't reliable. Yes, it's currently all we have, but the rapid testing is useless unless you're actively symptomatic. The PCR test is better but there's several days before there's enough in your system to ping the test and during that time you can still spread it. 

[thyme4change]

Feb 28, 2021 14:45:12 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I can see having to get tested, but forcing people to get vaccinated crosses a line. You guys can twist it up all you like, but those restrictions are more than you are acknowledging. It's on par with sterilizing people because you don't think they should reproduce.

No.

The comparison is grotesque.

[laterbloomer]

Mar 1, 2021 8:54:35 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Feb 28, 2021 14:45:12 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I can see having to get tested, but forcing people to get vaccinated crosses a line. You guys can twist it up all you like, but those restrictions are more than you are acknowledging. It's on par with sterilizing people because you don't think they should reproduce.

No.

The comparison is grotesque.

Only because you agree with one and not the other. We are talking about forcing people to inject foreign matter that they don't want in their body. It crosses a big line. 

[laterbloomer]

Feb 28, 2021 17:44:34 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Please note I don't support holding anyone down and snipping nor injecting them. But what is the argument?
Who should be forced to undergo sterilization? People who ... (fill in the blank).
Who should be forced to undergo vaccination? People. No blank to fill in.

And that is the basic difference in the two situations. That is why I am comfortable with "if ..., then ..." when it comes to COVID vaccinations.

I don't understand how forcing everyone to do something is better than only forcing some people to do. But even then, you won't be forcing everyone because lots of people want the vaccine. 

[minnesotapaintlady]

Mar 1, 2021 9:14:13 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Mar 1, 2021 8:54:35 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

No.

The comparison is grotesque.

Only because you agree with one and not the other. We are talking about forcing people to inject foreign matter that they don't want in their body. It crosses a big line. 

Again, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.  Even if the airlines make it mandatory for international travel they're not forcing you to get on their planes. 

[billisonboard]

Mar 1, 2021 9:16:19 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Feb 28, 2021 17:44:34 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Please note I don't support holding anyone down and snipping nor injecting them. But what is the argument?
Who should be forced to undergo sterilization? People who ... (fill in the blank).
Who should be forced to undergo vaccination? People. No blank to fill in.

And that is the basic difference in the two situations. That is why I am comfortable with "if ..., then ..." when it comes to COVID vaccinations.

I don't understand how forcing everyone to do something is better than only forcing some people to do. But even then, you won't be forcing everyone because lots of people want the vaccine. 

Who are those "some people"? What criteria is used to select them? Do any of those who are selecting the criteria fit that criteria or would it be some category of "them" who will be forced?

Perhaps looking at a different situation would be good. The US used a draft system to get troops for fighting in Vietnam. The attempt was made to have it appear that all males of a certain age were equally subject to be drafted. The reality was far different than that. It became clear that the process made it so only "some people" were forced to serve. The draft was ended and we now have a volunteer force. But imagine if we were in a position of needing more personnel than we have volunteers and needed to go back to a draft. I don't think putting in place a system of forcing "some people" would be a fair way to go. All people, taking into account legitimate exceptions, should be draftable. And, yes, some would still volunteer.

[pulmonarymd]

Mar 1, 2021 9:14:13 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Mar 1, 2021 8:54:35 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

No.

The comparison is grotesque.

Only because you agree with one and not the other. We are talking about forcing people to inject foreign matter that they don't want in their body. It crosses a big line. 

you are ignoring a major point. if you are sterilized, it has no impact on my health. An infectious disease can have a disastrous impact on me, I could die. If you are unvaccinated, you could travel and reintroduce it. Go to a restaurant, you could infect the staff. A concert, you could infect quite a few people. So, if you want to avoid vaccination, your choice of activities you wish to do become limited.

If you want to visit certain countries, you have to provide proof of vaccination. To attend public schools, you need to provide proof. College, you need to supply proof of vaccination. Why is this any different. It has an EUA now, but I expect it them to be approved this year. Once that is done, it can then be required in the same way that measles, mumps, pertusis, and polio are.

[billisonboard]

Mar 1, 2021 9:29:39 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Mar 1, 2021 9:14:13 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Only because you agree with one and not the other. We are talking about forcing people to inject foreign matter that they don't want in their body. It crosses a big line. 

Again, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.  Even if the airlines make it mandatory for international travel they're not forcing you to get on their planes. 

I think that laterbloomer is arguing that any such "if ..., then ..." situation is an illegitimate infringement on personal freedom.

[pulmonarymd]

Mar 1, 2021 10:57:04 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 1, 2021 9:29:39 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Again, nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.  Even if the airlines make it mandatory for international travel they're not forcing you to get on their planes. 

I think that laterbloomer is arguing that any such "if ..., then ..." situation is an illegitimate infringement on personal freedom.

Which is also not true, there are plenty of if, then situations. Want to drive a car, get a license and in many locations, insurance. Want to vote, register. Want to fly on a plan, supply identification. Unlimited freedom is a myth.

ETA: related to the draft. Want to get financial aid as a male in the US, register with selective service. If you do not, you cannot get aid. That is quite coercive in my opinion, and affects only one segment of the population, so quite discriminatory too

[minnesotapaintlady]

I'm also guessing there will be at least a few dissenting airlines that will not require it, so you can still fly "Covid Air" if you so choose.

[billisonboard]

Mar 1, 2021 10:53:03 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Mar 1, 2021 9:14:13 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Only because you agree with one and not the other. We are talking about forcing people to inject foreign matter that they don't want in their body. It crosses a big line. 

you are ignoring a major point. if you are sterilized, it has no impact on my health. An infectious disease can have a disastrous impact on me, I could die. If you are unvaccinated, you could travel and reintroduce it. Go to a restaurant, you could infect the staff. A concert, you could infect quite a few people. So, if you want to avoid vaccination, your choice of activities you wish to do become limited.

If you want to visit certain countries, you have to provide proof of vaccination. To attend public schools, you need to provide proof. College, you need to supply proof of vaccination. Why is this any different. It has an EUA now, but I expect it them to be approved this year. Once that is done, it can then be required in the same way that measles, mumps, pertusis, and polio are.

To be fair, she did address it here:

Feb 28, 2021 14:08:49 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

.... And I don't agree with the argument of doing it so other people will be safe. Let the other people either get vaccinated or they can lose their freedoms.

Not sure how far she extends this line of thought of the general society having no legitimate right to do things for the common good.

[pulmonarymd]

Mar 1, 2021 11:10:26 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 1, 2021 10:53:03 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

you are ignoring a major point. if you are sterilized, it has no impact on my health. An infectious disease can have a disastrous impact on me, I could die. If you are unvaccinated, you could travel and reintroduce it. Go to a restaurant, you could infect the staff. A concert, you could infect quite a few people. So, if you want to avoid vaccination, your choice of activities you wish to do become limited.

If you want to visit certain countries, you have to provide proof of vaccination. To attend public schools, you need to provide proof. College, you need to supply proof of vaccination. Why is this any different. It has an EUA now, but I expect it them to be approved this year. Once that is done, it can then be required in the same way that measles, mumps, pertusis, and polio are.

To be fair, she did address it here:

Feb 28, 2021 14:08:49 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

.... And I don't agree with the argument of doing it so other people will be safe. Let the other people either get vaccinated or they can lose their freedoms.

Not sure how far she extends this line of thought of the general society having no legitimate right to do things for the common good.

Does that extend to other vaccinations, or only this one? Maybe we should stop vaccinating people for polio, for example. Or, avoid eating where Typhoid Mary was working. She was a carrier, she did not get sick, if we do not care about others safety. There is a typhoid vaccine, although it is used rarely. Since we have one, why limit the type of work she could do?

ETA: Do we extend that argument to mask wearing? If I don't care if I get sick, why should I wear a mask to protect you?

[billisonboard]

Mar 1, 2021 11:00:25 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Mar 1, 2021 10:57:04 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I think that laterbloomer is arguing that any such "if ..., then ..." situation is an illegitimate infringement on personal freedom.

Which is also not true, there are plenty of if, then situations. Want to drive a car, get a license and in many locations, insurance. Want to vote, register. Want to fly on a plan, supply identification. Unlimited freedom is a myth.

ETA: related to the draft. Want to get financial aid as a male in the US, register with selective service. If you do not, you cannot get aid. That is quite coercive in my opinion, and affects only one segment of the population, so quite discriminatory too

Unlimited freedom is certainly not a reality but that doesn't mean people don't argue that it should be.

[laterbloomer]

Mar 1, 2021 11:00:25 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Mar 1, 2021 10:57:04 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I think that laterbloomer is arguing that any such "if ..., then ..." situation is an illegitimate infringement on personal freedom.

Which is also not true, there are plenty of if, then situations. Want to drive a car, get a license and in many locations, insurance. Want to vote, register. Want to fly on a plan, supply identification. Unlimited freedom is a myth.

ETA: related to the draft. Want to get financial aid as a male in the US, register with selective service. If you do not, you cannot get aid. That is quite coercive in my opinion, and affects only one segment of the population, so quite discriminatory too

Getting educated on something is not the same as forcing someone to inject foreign elements into their body.

Seriously guys, if this was in some sci fi movie you would all be going "how can a government do that?".  

[laterbloomer]

Mar 1, 2021 11:10:26 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Mar 1, 2021 10:53:03 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

you are ignoring a major point. if you are sterilized, it has no impact on my health. An infectious disease can have a disastrous impact on me, I could die. If you are unvaccinated, you could travel and reintroduce it. Go to a restaurant, you could infect the staff. A concert, you could infect quite a few people. So, if you want to avoid vaccination, your choice of activities you wish to do become limited.

If you want to visit certain countries, you have to provide proof of vaccination. To attend public schools, you need to provide proof. College, you need to supply proof of vaccination. Why is this any different. It has an EUA now, but I expect it them to be approved this year. Once that is done, it can then be required in the same way that measles, mumps, pertusis, and polio are.

To be fair, she did address it here:

Feb 28, 2021 14:08:49 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

.... And I don't agree with the argument of doing it so other people will be safe. Let the other people either get vaccinated or they can lose their freedoms.

Not sure how far she extends this line of thought of the general society having no legitimate right to do things for the common good.

At the line where the action taken for "the common good" means an intrusive medical procedure.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Again with the "forcing".

[laterbloomer]

Mar 1, 2021 11:14:45 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Mar 1, 2021 11:10:26 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

To be fair, she did address it here:Not sure how far she extends this line of thought of the general society having no legitimate right to do things for the common good.

Does that extend to other vaccinations, or only this one? Maybe we should stop vaccinating people for polio, for example. Or, avoid eating where Typhoid Mary was working. She was a carrier, she did not get sick, if we do not care about others safety. There is a typhoid vaccine, although it is used rarely. Since we have one, why limit the type of work she could do?

ETA: Do we extend that argument to mask wearing? If I don't care if I get sick, why should I wear a mask to protect you?

Lots of people are fine with getting vaccines, keep giving it to them. Just don't force the people that don't want it.

[billisonboard]

Mar 1, 2021 11:19:21 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Mar 1, 2021 11:00:25 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Which is also not true, there are plenty of if, then situations. Want to drive a car, get a license and in many locations, insurance. Want to vote, register. Want to fly on a plan, supply identification. Unlimited freedom is a myth.

ETA: related to the draft. Want to get financial aid as a male in the US, register with selective service. If you do not, you cannot get aid. That is quite coercive in my opinion, and affects only one segment of the population, so quite discriminatory too

Getting educated on something is not the same as forcing someone to inject foreign elements into their body.

Seriously guys, if this was in some sci fi movie you would all be going "how can a government do that?".  

Again you are equating "if ..., then ..." to "forcing". I am not.

[laterbloomer]

Mar 1, 2021 11:20:34 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Again with the "forcing".

Oh come on! Do this or basically be confined to your home is forcing people. 

I get it, you guys don't agree. I've stated my stand on it. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. 

[pulmonarymd]

Mar 1, 2021 11:21:11 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Mar 1, 2021 11:14:45 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Does that extend to other vaccinations, or only this one? Maybe we should stop vaccinating people for polio, for example. Or, avoid eating where Typhoid Mary was working. She was a carrier, she did not get sick, if we do not care about others safety. There is a typhoid vaccine, although it is used rarely. Since we have one, why limit the type of work she could do?

ETA: Do we extend that argument to mask wearing? If I don't care if I get sick, why should I wear a mask to protect you?

Lots of people are fine with getting vaccines, keep giving it to them. Just don't force the people that don't want it.

So we should not require vaccination for school? How is this any different?

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Mar 1, 2021 9:14:13 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Mar 1, 2021 8:54:35 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

No.

The comparison is grotesque.

Only because you agree with one and not the other. We are talking about forcing people to inject foreign matter that they don't want in their body. It crosses a big line. 

Only one of your examples has an impact on public health.  Forced sterilization has an impact on one person....you.  Forced vaccination impacts the rest of the public, not just you.  

[laterbloomer]

Mar 1, 2021 11:26:22 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Mar 1, 2021 11:21:11 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Lots of people are fine with getting vaccines, keep giving it to them. Just don't force the people that don't want it.

So we should not require vaccination for school? How is this any different?

It isn't and I think that has crossed a line too.