laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 1, 2021 11:32:41 GMT -5
Which is also not true, there are plenty of if, then situations. Want to drive a car, get a license and in many locations, insurance. Want to vote, register. Want to fly on a plan, supply identification. Unlimited freedom is a myth. ETA: related to the draft. Want to get financial aid as a male in the US, register with selective service. If you do not, you cannot get aid. That is quite coercive in my opinion, and affects only one segment of the population, so quite discriminatory too Unlimited freedom is certainly not a reality but that doesn't mean people don't argue that it should be. Freedom over what is and isn't injected into your body is a long way from "unlimited freedom"
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Post by minnesotapaintlady on Mar 1, 2021 11:34:02 GMT -5
Again with the "forcing". Oh come on! Do this or basically be confined to your home is forcing people. I get it, you guys don't agree. I've stated my stand on it. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Confined to your home? Seriously, you are the one blowing this way out of proportion. It's more like a "if you want early freedom for international travel get vaccinated".
It's not like having vaccines to travel to certain places isn't required already. Why aren't you screaming about not being able to fly to all areas in Africa or South America without a Yellow Fever vaccine card?
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 1, 2021 11:34:43 GMT -5
I can't find the post now, but someone said a nurse got fired for not getting vaccinated to work around patients. That makes sense to me, she is specifically working with vulnerable people, this is where they go to get treated. That is not the case for 99% of workplaces. Alright, I really am done talking about this now.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2021 11:35:11 GMT -5
Unlimited freedom is certainly not a reality but that doesn't mean people don't argue that it should be. Freedom over what is and isn't injected into your body is a long way from "unlimited freedom" No one should be forced to have that happen.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 1, 2021 11:36:53 GMT -5
Does that extend to other vaccinations, or only this one? Maybe we should stop vaccinating people for polio, for example. Or, avoid eating where Typhoid Mary was working. She was a carrier, she did not get sick, if we do not care about others safety. There is a typhoid vaccine, although it is used rarely. Since we have one, why limit the type of work she could do? ETA: Do we extend that argument to mask wearing? If I don't care if I get sick, why should I wear a mask to protect you? Lots of people are fine with getting vaccines, keep giving it to them. Just don't force the people that don't want it. The problem with this theory is that you need a high percentage of the population immune to prevent the spread of infection. If you refuse to get vaccinated (and are eligible), then that means you get to skate in on the fact that others are doing the lifting. That makes you pretty selfish person IMO. You let others take a small risk that you won’t take, but can take advantage of your decreased risk. I strongly suspect that vaccine passports are going to come back. If you want to get on public transport, go to another country, go to certain places, you might have to show proof of vaccination.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Mar 1, 2021 11:44:50 GMT -5
So we should not require vaccination for school? How is this any different? It isn't and I think that has crossed a line too. Then children who cannot be vaccinated need to stay home? Someone will have to have their freedom limited if we do not control these potentially fatal childhood diseases. With the anti-vaxxer sentiment, this is not a theoretical argument. Since you believe in personal freedom, what should have been done with Typhoid Mary. She had her freedom limited to protect others as well. I would argue to a greater degree than requiring vaccination
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Mar 1, 2021 11:49:06 GMT -5
Lots of people are fine with getting vaccines, keep giving it to them. Just don't force the people that don't want it. The problem with this theory is that you need a high percentage of the population immune to prevent the spread of infection. If you refuse to get vaccinated (and are eligible), then that means you get to skate in on the fact that others are doing the lifting. That makes you pretty selfish person IMO. You let others take a small risk that you won’t take, but can take advantage of your decreased risk. I strongly suspect that vaccine passports are going to come back. If you want to get on public transport, go to another country, go to certain places, you might have to show proof of vaccination. The free rider problem is real in this situation. And unless enough people are vaccinated, infections will not be suppressed. if that is the case, are we wearing masks forever?
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Mar 1, 2021 11:50:24 GMT -5
I can't find the post now, but someone said a nurse got fired for not getting vaccinated to work around patients. That makes sense to me, she is specifically working with vulnerable people, this is where they go to get treated. That is not the case for 99% of workplaces. Alright, I really am done talking about this now. How do schools fit into this respect. Not this disease, but normal childhood diseases
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2021 11:53:16 GMT -5
I can't find the post now, but someone said a nurse got fired for not getting vaccinated to work around patients. That makes sense to me, she is specifically working with vulnerable people, this is where they go to get treated. That is not the case for 99% of workplaces. Alright, I really am done talking about this now. A man walks up to a woman in a bar and asks, "Would you sleep with me for a million dollars? She says "Yes". "Then will you sleep with me for a dollar?" She responds, "What kind of woman do you think i am?" He says, "We have established that. Now we are just negotiating price." You are saying it is okay to force people to have a foreign substance injected into their body. It is only a question of who and why.
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 1, 2021 12:07:33 GMT -5
I'm also guessing there will be at least a few dissenting airlines that will not require it, so you can still fly "Covid Air" if you so choose. It all depends what countries do. I'm sure there's plenty that will adopt a vaccinated or quarantine position.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2021 13:08:56 GMT -5
Women Say They Had to Be Sterilized to Hold JobsNot sure exactly what to make of this situation. It is a very old story but is interesting to me in relationship to this current thread discussion. What right does a business owner have to protect themselves from a potential lawsuit? If I create an unsafe work environment by allowing unvaccinated and/or unmasked people to work and others become sick/die from COVID, should I be off the hook? What responsibility do I have to employees in a situation like flight attendants and passengers?
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Mar 1, 2021 13:24:17 GMT -5
An employer has the responsibility to follow applicable safety guidelines to keep their employees safe. If they follow appropriate safety guidelines, then it is up to the employee to decide if the risk is too high/ People work with toxic chemicals and radioactivity every day. I irradiate myself during some procedures, as well as my assistants in the room. Small risk is involved, and we take all relevant safety precautions. Pregnant nurses and physicians have someone else do the dangerous parts of the jobs to decrease these risks, but risk is never zero.
The argument is always about what is "reasonable". Requiring a surgical procedure is beyond what we, as a society has decided is reasonable. Is requiring a vaccine "reasonable. If my employer requires it of me, why can't other employers require it of them. A respiratory virus respects no one.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Mar 1, 2021 13:41:29 GMT -5
You may soon need proof of 2 Covid vaccinations if you want to travel abroad (certificate on your phone)........ Thats the way we are heading. Other Countries can do what they like and if they want to refuse entry to protect their populations, they will. Its all in discussion at the moment to get an internationally recognised certificate.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 1, 2021 13:46:53 GMT -5
No. The comparison is grotesque. Only because you agree with one and not the other. We are talking about forcing people to inject foreign matter that they don't want in their body. It crosses a big line. Wrong again.
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susana1954
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Post by susana1954 on Mar 1, 2021 17:03:01 GMT -5
Since this post started with the idea that employers are being asked to collect data for the government, I am going to return to it.
You aren't vaccinated anonymously. The vaccination card that I received from UAB had my information preprinted on it, based on the forms I had to fill out prior to receiving an appointment. That means I am in their database. The forms asked for the name of my insurance company, which will have to pay for UAB to administer it but not for the vaccine itself. That means my vaccination is in the insurance company's data base. If you are uninsured, the Alabama Dept. of Health is covering that expense, which means you are in their database.
So the government doesn't need your employer to collect this data for them. They can get the same information easier from one of these central sources. I suspect your employer wants to know who's been vaccinated. They are willing to collect it in the name of the government for their own purposes.
There is also a purpose, folks, behind being handed a vaccination card. You don't get one with other vaccines. And, again, both UAB and my insurance company know I have been vaccinated and with what. That doesn't mean, of course, that the purpose is nefarious. We just don't know what it is yet.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 1, 2021 17:24:57 GMT -5
Since this post started with the idea that employers are being asked to collect data for the government, I am going to return to it. ... Always dangerous to assume but I will take the risk and assume you meant "... thread started ...". If so, I recommend rereading the original post. I admit it confused me for a second with a capitalized "President". But it is referring to a company president and not the President of the United States.
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susana1954
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Post by susana1954 on Mar 1, 2021 17:26:57 GMT -5
Since this post started with the idea that employers are being asked to collect data for the government, I am going to return to it. ... Always dangerous to assume but I will take the risk and assume you meant "... thread started ...". If so, I recommend rereading the original post. I admit it confused me for a second with a capitalized "President". But it is referring to a company president and not the President of the United States. Thanks because I did make that mistake. I mean, Biden is also an "old school" guy.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 1, 2021 18:03:41 GMT -5
Since this post started with the idea that employers are being asked to collect data for the government, I am going to return to it. ... Always dangerous to assume but I will take the risk and assume you meant "... thread started ...". If so, I recommend rereading the original post. I admit it confused me for a second with a capitalized "President". But it is referring to a company president and not the President of the United States. I made the same mistake and was quite confused because Thyme has been pretty open with her politics...then I realized she didn’t mean Biden
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 1, 2021 22:57:48 GMT -5
Always dangerous to assume but I will take the risk and assume you meant "... thread started ...". If so, I recommend rereading the original post. I admit it confused me for a second with a capitalized "President". But it is referring to a company president and not the President of the United States. Thanks because I did make that mistake. I mean, Biden is also an "old school" guy. Yup - sorry everyone. No government involvement - just my company. They aren't even requiring it - I just think big boss man is being nosey because he wants everyone back in the office. If I liked the guy more, I probably wouldn't have thought much about it. 😕
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 1, 2021 23:00:15 GMT -5
The problem with this theory is that you need a high percentage of the population immune to prevent the spread of infection. If you refuse to get vaccinated (and are eligible), then that means you get to skate in on the fact that others are doing the lifting. That makes you pretty selfish person IMO. You let others take a small risk that you won’t take, but can take advantage of your decreased risk. I strongly suspect that vaccine passports are going to come back. If you want to get on public transport, go to another country, go to certain places, you might have to show proof of vaccination. The free rider problem is real in this situation. And unless enough people are vaccinated, infections will not be suppressed. if that is the case, are we wearing masks forever? Not only are we going to need to wear masks forever, the country will always have a low level of infection where the virus starts mutating. That increases the risk that vaccination stops working.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 2, 2021 11:08:33 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2021 11:37:17 GMT -5
From the link: But most EU countries, led by France and Germany, believe that this is premature while vaccinations are available only to a small fraction of the population, and all the currently approved vaccines require two injections for immunisation. The timing issue makes sense. I have no problem with discrimination based on choices individuals make.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 2, 2021 15:11:13 GMT -5
I'm a strong believer in autonomy over our own bodies in pretty much all forms.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2021 15:37:40 GMT -5
I'm a strong believer in autonomy over our own bodies in pretty much all forms. There being consequences to choices gives significance to autonomy.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 2, 2021 18:02:52 GMT -5
I'm a strong believer in autonomy over our own bodies in pretty much all forms. There being consequences to choices gives significance to autonomy. There is a big difference between natural consequences and those imposed by people trying to control you. I am really surprised that the coercion and threats being used on those that do not want to be vaccinated doesn't bother more people. Maybe when it becomes something you don't want done to your body...
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 2, 2021 18:07:09 GMT -5
I got an email from someone at the office who will be collecting the information and distributing gift cards for just my location. It said "Most of us will be eligible in the 1B group." I am not entirely sure, but I think she just called the whole office old, fat and sick. Lol.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Mar 2, 2021 18:08:07 GMT -5
Because this is more complicated than “my body, my choice.” Your choice can have significant negative consequences to me. This is about collectively, as a society, doing something to protect each other. The argument about putting a foreign product in your body, with little risk, affects the social contract.
You seem to be willing to say to children who have medical reasons that they cannot be vaccinated, “sucks to be you” because by not requiring vaccination to attend schools, their parents have to decide if they are willing to risk their child’s life to go to school. So much for an inclusive society
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2021 18:23:12 GMT -5
There being consequences to choices gives significance to autonomy. There is a big difference between natural consequences and those imposed by people trying to control you. I am really surprised that the coercion and threats being used on those that do not want to be vaccinated doesn't bother more people. Maybe when it becomes something you don't want done to your body... People are putting me and others at risk physically, socially, and emotionally by not getting vaccinated. Society working to minimize the damage they do is reasonable. If they feel threatened or coerced by restrictions placed on them, that is on them.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 2, 2021 19:40:54 GMT -5
There is a big difference between natural consequences and those imposed by people trying to control you. I am really surprised that the coercion and threats being used on those that do not want to be vaccinated doesn't bother more people. Maybe when it becomes something you don't want done to your body... People are putting me and others at risk physically, socially, and emotionally by not getting vaccinated. Society working to minimize the damage they do is reasonable. If they feel threatened or coerced by restrictions placed on them, that is on them. And people feeling afraid of getting Covid is on them. 🤨 Covid is putting people at risk and MAYBE those that aren't vaccinated might get it. It's like that Tom Cruise movie with the pre crime predictions and people got punished for crimes they hadn't even thought of yet.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 2, 2021 19:50:38 GMT -5
People are putting me and others at risk physically, socially, and emotionally by not getting vaccinated. Society working to minimize the damage they do is reasonable. If they feel threatened or coerced by restrictions placed on them, that is on them. And people feeling afraid of getting Covid is on them. 🤨 Covid is putting people at risk and MAYBE those that aren't vaccinated might get it. It's like that Tom Cruise movie with the pre crime predictions and people got punished for crimes they hadn't even thought of yet. Overly dramatic but actually those not getting vaccinated will have committed the "crime" of not being vaccinated and are subject to the social "punishment" for that choice.
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