Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 9, 2022 23:48:31 GMT -5
it must suck to see the US gone so far off the rails for you, bills. if the AVERAGE American knew a TENTH of what you do, we would not be in the place we are.that could start a whole new discussion about why this is NOT the case. but it is probably not a discussion for this thread. I have little doubt that the average American only knows a tenth of what several of us do. Given that, I cannot reconcile bill's faith in the electorate. It seems completely misplaced. Its not the electorate that concerns me most. Its the gerrymandering of districts we know about and worse, the ones we will know about later because of the vote. The placing of un-American folks in positions of power regarding voting and counting.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 23:48:42 GMT -5
it must suck to see the US gone so far off the rails for you, bills. if the AVERAGE American knew a TENTH of what you do, we would not be in the place we are.that could start a whole new discussion about why this is NOT the case. but it is probably not a discussion for this thread. I have little doubt that the average American only knows a tenth of what several of us do. Given that, I cannot reconcile bill's faith in the electorate. It seems completely misplaced. The alternative is dictatorship by an elite. Is that what you desire?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 23:50:06 GMT -5
Damn! Bedtime. Good night all.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 23:50:40 GMT -5
it would also send a clear message to those with similar aspirations. your punishment is not simply to lose. it is to pay for your criminal conduct as the rest of us do. And you think that such people have a psychological mindset that will allow them to process things and change their aspirations? I don't. this goes to the nature and purpose of law, bills. i don't think laws ARE OR SHOULD BE deterrents. a pathological individual will not be deterred. he will look for flaws in the system. and we can only do TWO things as a society to prevent that. the first is to close those loopholes and flaws. that is part of what i am advocating for on this thread. the second thing we can do is to get to the root causes of pathology. what we can't do, or should not do, is blithely ignore that we are not all angels. at a MINIMUM, the law is there to intervene on the part of victims against those that would victimize them. in the case of Trump, that is 330 million individuals, which makes it a rather pressing case.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 23:54:43 GMT -5
I have little doubt that the average American only knows a tenth of what several of us do. Given that, I cannot reconcile bill's faith in the electorate. It seems completely misplaced. The alternative is dictatorship by an elite. Is that what you desire? it is certainly what the founders and liberals as late as Walter Lippman desired, though dictatorship is too strong a word to describe it. there are two conceptions of democracy in the US. the first is that conception which was just articulated: that of a Platonic Republic. the second is a direct democracy. that is what the electorate thinks. i would posit that the elected have NEVER thought of democracy in that way. i think there is considerable evidence to back that up. in other words, i think this is a government of, by and for the elite. how does that differ from fascism? in a number of ways, as you know. Platonic rule is generally considered to be egalitarian, for one. there are no such guardrails with dictatorial rule.
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Post by tallguy on Oct 10, 2022 0:01:19 GMT -5
I have little doubt that the average American only knows a tenth of what several of us do. Given that, I cannot reconcile bill's faith in the electorate. It seems completely misplaced. The alternative is dictatorship by an elite. Is that what you desire? No, but blind faith is not the answer. Particularly so when you allow the system to be corrupted further in the meantime. Stop the corruption first, then figure out how to fix the system. Allowing those who seek to destroy the system to escape accountability will do more to destroy it from within than the damage they could do from outside.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 10, 2022 0:15:49 GMT -5
this discussion is not increasing my confidence in the US.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 10, 2022 0:43:20 GMT -5
The Big Lie continues and trump's supporters continue believing him that the 2020 election was rigged. Let's say Trump actually runs for president in 2024 and is the Republican nominee. If that happens and he loses again, you don't think trump and his supporters will claim the election was rigged again? You and I both know trump and his supporters will make that claim. Repeat a lie often enough and some are fooled into believing its true. The post-2020 election griping has taught us that. trump and the election deniers are destroying the confidence in American elections. Look what is happening in red states with all their new election laws. New solutions looking for non-existant problems. Big Lie 2024 - banned version: The 2020 election was stolen from Trump and with all the steps that are being taken to prevent it from happening again, the only thing that can be done to keep him from winning bigly in 2024 is to prevent him from running at all. huh? no. the only steps i am seeing are those which will ensure that it WILL happen again, and ensure it's success if it does. what am i missing?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 10, 2022 3:38:54 GMT -5
Not really a concern. Just an observation. I have taken longer. Is that really an issue?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 10, 2022 3:43:50 GMT -5
Well, Biden won the election so that part worked well. The Big Lie didn't lead to any change in results so that was good. The insurrection petered out quickly. Prosecution of offenders is proceeding nicely. Nothing big has happened over the two years. So i see no real issues. The Big Lie continues and trump's supporters continue believing him that the 2020 election was rigged. Let's say Trump actually runs for president in 2024 and is the Republican nominee. If that happens and he loses again, you don't think trump and his supporters will claim the election was rigged again? You and I both know trump and his supporters will make that claim. Repeat a lie often enough and some are fooled into believing its true. The post-2020 election griping has taught us that. trump and the election deniers are destroying the confidence in American elections. Look what is happening in red states with all their new election laws. New solutions looking for non-existant problems. To be fair, I think for some this is cover to pass those restrictive voting laws. They know the election is secure and given the results they need cover to make it less so or slant it to their advantage. The GOP is the definition of elites clinging to power. I am not as worried as some that folks make being a politician a career after serving as a lawyer, a teacher, or whatever. The learning curve is high for figuring out how to do things for those who elected you AND how to get reelected next time. The latter is only a concern once for someone elected President as there are only two terms and most retire from politics after. Can't think of any President in my lifetime who chose to return to being a governor or other elected position.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 10, 2022 4:15:01 GMT -5
A bloodbath is certainly one way to deal with this situation. How many of his "army" do you propose executing? 74 million voted for him. Everyone who entered the building on January 6 would have been a good start, and apparently even Lindsey Graham agrees with that. Anyone who furthered the attempts to overthrow our democracy would be a good follow-up. If the final number ends up being 200, 2000, or two million I'm fine with it. Either way, I find it far preferable to staking the fate of our nation on the equivalent of a coin flip, as you appear willing to do.... I think execution is too much except for those guilty of sedition. Many of those who came really were deluded and thought they were patriots because Trump told them they were. Most of the followers except organized groups like the Proud Boys are followers not leaders. They wanted to display and use their righteous anger but probably had no real actionable plans except follow Trump to the Capitol as requested. Unfortunately, those who injured or killed Capitol officers are generally responsible for those crimes but not more. I don't think we should be crazy country like China or Russia and lock up or execute more than need be. That said, I'd like to see US public opinion to pivot to President's need to be accountable for trying to remain in power illegally. Trump has done way more than Nixon yet is running his crazy everywhere out in public. That, makes the US a laughingstock of other countries unless of course you've been saddled with Putin and are aware how long he has lied to you and the country you call home.
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 10, 2022 7:54:25 GMT -5
Big Lie 2024 - banned version: The 2020 election was stolen from Trump and with all the steps that are being taken to prevent it from happening again, the only thing that can be done to keep him from winning bigly in 2024 is to prevent him from running at all. huh? no. the only steps i am seeing are those which will ensure that it WILL happen again, and ensure it's success if it does. what am i missing? This is what Trump's Big Lie will look like for the 2024 presidential election if he is successfully banned from running.
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 10, 2022 8:02:16 GMT -5
The alternative is dictatorship by an elite. Is that what you desire? it is certainly what the founders and liberals as late as Walter Lippman desired, though dictatorship is too strong a word to describe it. there are two conceptions of democracy in the US. the first is that conception which was just articulated: that of a Platonic Republic. the second is a direct democracy. that is what the electorate thinks. i would posit that the elected have NEVER thought of democracy in that way. i think there is considerable evidence to back that up. in other words, i think this is a government of, by and for the elite. how does that differ from fascism? in a number of ways, as you know. Platonic rule is generally considered to be egalitarian, for one. there are no such guardrails with dictatorial rule. FWIW, Direct democracy or pure democracy is a form of democracy in which the electorate decides on policy initiatives without elected representatives as proxies. This differs from the majority of currently established democracies, which are representative democracies. link
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 10, 2022 8:34:46 GMT -5
The alternative is dictatorship by an elite. Is that what you desire? it is certainly what the founders and liberals as late as Walter Lippman desired, though dictatorship is too strong a word to describe it. there are two conceptions of democracy in the US. the first is that conception which was just articulated: that of a Platonic Republic. the second is a direct democracy. that is what the electorate thinks. i would posit that the elected have NEVER thought of democracy in that way. i think there is considerable evidence to back that up. in other words, i think this is a government of, by and for the elite. how does that differ from fascism? in a number of ways, as you know. Platonic rule is generally considered to be egalitarian, for one. there are no such guardrails with dictatorial rule. Platonic Republic - Magnesia or Callipolis?
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 10, 2022 9:02:23 GMT -5
huh? no. the only steps i am seeing are those which will ensure that it WILL happen again, and ensure it's success if it does. what am i missing? This is what Trump's Big Lie will look like for the 2024 presidential election if he is successfully banned from running. eventually, we will have to simply fight for the truth. right now, we are fighting for the very life of our government. we are at the base of Maslow's Pyramid. self actualization is for another time.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 10, 2022 9:02:52 GMT -5
it is certainly what the founders and liberals as late as Walter Lippman desired, though dictatorship is too strong a word to describe it. there are two conceptions of democracy in the US. the first is that conception which was just articulated: that of a Platonic Republic. the second is a direct democracy. that is what the electorate thinks. i would posit that the elected have NEVER thought of democracy in that way. i think there is considerable evidence to back that up. in other words, i think this is a government of, by and for the elite. how does that differ from fascism? in a number of ways, as you know. Platonic rule is generally considered to be egalitarian, for one. there are no such guardrails with dictatorial rule. Platonic Republic - Magnesia or Callipolis? you tell me, Poly.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 10, 2022 9:06:39 GMT -5
it is certainly what the founders and liberals as late as Walter Lippman desired, though dictatorship is too strong a word to describe it. there are two conceptions of democracy in the US. the first is that conception which was just articulated: that of a Platonic Republic. the second is a direct democracy. that is what the electorate thinks. i would posit that the elected have NEVER thought of democracy in that way. i think there is considerable evidence to back that up. in other words, i think this is a government of, by and for the elite. how does that differ from fascism? in a number of ways, as you know. Platonic rule is generally considered to be egalitarian, for one. there are no such guardrails with dictatorial rule. FWIW, Direct democracy or pure democracy is a form of democracy in which the electorate decides on policy initiatives without elected representatives as proxies. This differs from the majority of currently established democracies, which are representative democracies. link that is more along the lines of what Bakunin and Luxembourg advocated. what i am suggesting is that most people think that they are running things. that they are the ultimate arbiters of what happens in the US. you seem to think that, as well. i think that is our governmental fantasy, as a nation. representatives are not really responsive to the needs of the public, as we generally understand the term, and they never have been. edit: i am not even sure it is desirable, for the record. but that is not at all what the founders intended or Lippmann advocated. rather, they advocated that an enlightened (and in the case of John Jay, invested) elite run things. that is the vision of the constitutional republic that i am suggesting is our reality.
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 10, 2022 9:10:03 GMT -5
Platonic Republic - Magnesia or Callipolis? you tell me, Poly. No idea what you meant be a Platonic Republic.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 10, 2022 9:12:06 GMT -5
No idea what you meant be a Platonic Republic. enlightened rule over the "teeming masses" (the latter being a 20th century term). GOOGLE: Plato believed that the best government would be ruled by philosopher-kings, the most educated and smartest people in society. These kings would NOT be hereditary, but would be chosen by the people based on their individual talent.
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 10, 2022 11:21:44 GMT -5
No idea what you meant be a Platonic Republic. enlightened rule over the "teeming masses" (the latter being a 20th century term). GOOGLE: Plato believed that the best government would be ruled by philosopher-kings, the most educated and smartest people in society. These kings would NOT be hereditary, but would be chosen by the people based on their individual talent. Sweet. At work but will respond in detail later.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Oct 10, 2022 11:43:31 GMT -5
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 10, 2022 20:11:21 GMT -5
No idea what you meant be a Platonic Republic. enlightened rule over the "teeming masses" (the latter being a 20th century term). GOOGLE: Plato believed that the best government would be ruled by philosopher-kings, the most educated and smartest people in society. These kings would NOT be hereditary, but would be chosen by the people based on their individual talent. Sounds great, doesn't it. Here is more: The Republic entails elements of socialism as when Socrates expresses the desire to achieve happiness for the whole city not for any particular group of it (420b) and when he argues against inequalities in wealth (421d). There are also elements of fascism or totalitarianism. Among others, there is extreme censorship of poetry, lying to maintain good behavior and political stability, restriction of power to a small elite group, eugenic techniques, centralized control of the citizen’s lives, a strong military group that enforces the laws, and suppression of freedom of expression and choice. And The best guardian men are to have sex with the best guardian women to produce offspring of a similar nature (458d-459d). Socrates describes the system of eugenics in more detail. In order to guarantee that the best guardian men have sex with the best guardian women, the city will have marriage festivals supported by a rigged lottery system (459e-460a). The best guardian men will also be allowed to have sex with as many women as they desire in order to increase the likelihood of giving birth to children with similar natures (460a-b). iep.utm.edu/republic/#H1 iep.utm.edu/pla-laws/
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 10, 2022 21:01:44 GMT -5
enlightened rule over the "teeming masses" (the latter being a 20th century term). GOOGLE: Plato believed that the best government would be ruled by philosopher-kings, the most educated and smartest people in society. These kings would NOT be hereditary, but would be chosen by the people based on their individual talent. Sounds great, doesn't it. Here is more: The Republic entails elements of socialism as when Socrates expresses the desire to achieve happiness for the whole city not for any particular group of it (420b) and when he argues against inequalities in wealth (421d). There are also elements of fascism or totalitarianism. Among others, there is extreme censorship of poetry, lying to maintain good behavior and political stability, restriction of power to a small elite group, eugenic techniques, centralized control of the citizen’s lives, a strong military group that enforces the laws, and suppression of freedom of expression and choice. And The best guardian men are to have sex with the best guardian women to produce offspring of a similar nature (458d-459d). Socrates describes the system of eugenics in more detail. In order to guarantee that the best guardian men have sex with the best guardian women, the city will have marriage festivals supported by a rigged lottery system (459e-460a). The best guardian men will also be allowed to have sex with as many women as they desire in order to increase the likelihood of giving birth to children with similar natures (460a-b). iep.utm.edu/republic/#H1 iep.utm.edu/pla-laws/sounds like the US ca. 1920: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenicscase closed. it is great to reach consensus.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 10, 2022 21:21:35 GMT -5
bills- you asked me earlier what "i advocate". that is a question that is both difficult and immaterial to the discussion, which is ostensibly about the attempt to overthrow our government and replace it with something else. i am assuming that what replaces the palatable government of 1974 will be something far smaller, less civil, and less aspirational. so, yeah, not down with that. i will find another place.
but others won't. they want to MAGA. like it was in the 20's, i guess. best wishes.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Oct 10, 2022 21:32:06 GMT -5
bills- you asked me earlier what "i advocate". that is a question that is both difficult and immaterial to the discussion, which is ostensibly about the attempt to overthrow our government and replace it with something else. i am assuming that what replaces the palatable government of 1974 will be something far smaller, less civil, and less aspirational. so, yeah, not down with that. i will find another place. but others won't. they want to MAGA. like it was in the 20's, i guess. best wishes. Can’t say I was all that fond of 1974 what with Nixxon in full bloom.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2022 11:30:01 GMT -5
bills- you asked me earlier what "i advocate". that is a question that is both difficult and immaterial to the discussion, which is ostensibly about the attempt to overthrow our government and replace it with something else. i am assuming that what replaces the palatable government of 1974 will be something far smaller, less civil, and less aspirational. so, yeah, not down with that. i will find another place. but others won't. they want to MAGA. like it was in the 20's, i guess. best wishes. Can’t say I was all that fond of 1974 what with Nixxon in full bloom. i choose 1974 for a variety of reasons. it was the peak of the civil rights era, the maximum inflation adjusted minimum wage, the most egalitarian GINI ratio we have ever had, balanced or nearly balanced federal budgets, a pro-worker/union federal government. in some respects, things have improved since then. in many, they have not.
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 12, 2022 7:37:50 GMT -5
“We find the defendant not guilty, compared with you-know-who.”
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 13, 2022 14:41:35 GMT -5
January 6 Committee today:
Video interviews of Stone, Flynn, Eastman and others:
"Fifth"
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 13, 2022 15:00:03 GMT -5
J6 Committee to subpoena donald trump to testify under oath.
This will be interesting. trump can tell his side of the chain of events leading up to and during the attack on Congress.
ETA: I am under no illusion trump will comply with the subpoena. He will fight and delay hoping the Republicans take over the House next month and Republican House leaders dissolve the J6 Committee.
But a bold act at the last of the public hearings.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 13, 2022 16:33:50 GMT -5
can't wait to watch this tonight.
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