djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 22:17:12 GMT -5
i have already stated what i think is the flaw in this argument. i don't think you have acknowledged it. the only FUNCTIONING branch of government left is the judiciary, bills. Sorry, thought I had. If not here you go. You are wrong. The successful election of 2020 and governance of the executive branch since January 20th shows functionality beyond the Judiciary. wrong about what? i have presented no arguments about 2020 in this post, or for many previous posts. that is because i have heard your objection, and what appears to be the foundation of your argument- the unassailable fact that Biden won in 2020. so, you are missing my point about the flaw in your argument. if Trump and his army of crazypants had simply accepted the outcome, i would have no argument to make. but they have not. in fact, Trump is arguably more powerful today than before, and our voting system has been undermined for decades, and continues to be undermined at an increasing rate. and his army is far more organized. THAT is my argument. that our situation has never been worse for voting for at least 50, and probably 100 years. so, please stop running 2020 up the flagpole, bills. i heard you.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 22:18:25 GMT -5
Wonderful is the effect of impudent and persevering lying. The British ministry have so long hired their gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, and what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusets? And can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it’s motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion.[1] The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independant 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusets: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen yard in order. Tommy Jefferson I agree fully. The tyrant is Trump, seeking to rule for his own purposes. Along with those who enabled and aided in his attempts to destroy our democracy, he must be held accountable. Spill their blood...now. All of them. Perhaps then can we truly have liberty again.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 22:20:08 GMT -5
It is broken. One side no longer believes in the process. You are watching a patient get sicker and are waiting for the right time to intervene. Unfortunately, continuing to watch risks missing your opportunity to save the patients life. There is a point of no return here. You do not think we have reached it. Unfo, if you are wrong, we are fucked. And you still want yo give trump a pass in the crimes he has already committed because you fear the consequences. How can you say the system isn’t broken if you believe that this is precisely it. and they NEVER WILL BELIEVE IT. that is the problem. their discontent? i can suffer it. everyone can. the fact that it will be bourne by generations? nobody can suffer that. this is a relentless ocean of discontent that will only settle when it reduces the nation to sand. Restoration, not circumvention, is what needs to happen.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 22:21:19 GMT -5
this is precisely it. and they NEVER WILL BELIEVE IT. that is the problem. their discontent? i can suffer it. everyone can. the fact that it will be bourne by generations? nobody can suffer that. this is a relentless ocean of discontent that will only settle when it reduces the nation to sand. Restoration, not circumvention, is what needs to happen. that will never happen. do you want me to articulate why i believe that? i think i have already stated it, but maybe not on this board. maybe not even on this FORUM.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 22:27:45 GMT -5
Sorry, thought I had. If not here you go. You are wrong. The successful election of 2020 and governance of the executive branch since January 20th shows functionality beyond the Judiciary. wrong about what? ... We, through our elected representatives, should have acted to ban him. Since they didn't, we need to do it directly. We should not rely on the nonelected Judiciary. i have already stated what i think is the flaw in this argument. i don't think you have acknowledged it. the only FUNCTIONING branch of government left is the judiciary, bills. The bolded is what you are wrong about. The successful election of 2020 and governance of the executive branch since January 20th shows functionality beyond the Judiciary.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 22:31:35 GMT -5
i have already stated what i think is the flaw in this argument. i don't think you have acknowledged it. the only FUNCTIONING branch of government left is the judiciary, bills. The bolded is what you are wrong about. The successful election of 2020 and governance of the executive branch since January 20th shows functionality beyond the Judiciary. Still putting a hell of a lot of faith in that coin flip, aren't you?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 22:32:46 GMT -5
i have already stated what i think is the flaw in this argument. i don't think you have acknowledged it. the only FUNCTIONING branch of government left is the judiciary, bills. The bolded is what you are wrong about. The successful election of 2020 and governance of the executive branch since January 20th shows functionality beyond the Judiciary. the reason i said that is because of who i am talking to (you). you have stated more times than i can count that it is the electorate that is the ultimate repository of legitimacy for the legislature and the executive branch- that those are ORGANS of the people. if i got you wrong, let me know. i would rather address JUST THIS POINT before we continue.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 22:34:12 GMT -5
Restoration, not circumvention, is what needs to happen. that will never happen. do you want me to articulate why i believe that? i think i have already stated it, but maybe not on this board. maybe not even on this FORUM. I always welcome discussion. If you want to add your opinion on this to the conversation, go for it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 22:37:50 GMT -5
that will never happen. do you want me to articulate why i believe that? i think i have already stated it, but maybe not on this board. maybe not even on this FORUM. I always welcome discussion. If you want to add your opinion on this to the conversation, go for it. i think there is an ancient wound in the US that remains unhealed. it dates back to before the Civil War. there is a weird sort of Calvinism here that reminds me a bit of South Africa. it is not really fixable in the sense we are talking about, here. but since i bothered to mention that example, i think SA is actually a model of where we quite possibly are heading, in several respects. i could articulate further, if you would like. there is a mountain of evidence for this.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 22:41:39 GMT -5
The bolded is what you are wrong about. The successful election of 2020 and governance of the executive branch since January 20th shows functionality beyond the Judiciary. Still putting a hell of a lot of faith in that coin flip, aren't you? I do put faith in the electorate. FWIW, I think the best second choice is governance by we political science majors. Fuck all non-experts.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 22:44:12 GMT -5
Still putting a hell of a lot of faith in that coin flip, aren't you? I do put faith in the electorate. FWIW, I think the best second choice is governance by we political science majors. Fuck all non-experts. the electorate never chose Trump, bills. and they won't choose him next time, either. THAT is the flaw in your argument. edit: i am repeating myself. i said the same thing in #2610. my apologies.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 22:45:57 GMT -5
I always welcome discussion. If you want to add your opinion on this to the conversation, go for it. i think there is an ancient wound in the US that remains unhealed. it dates back to before the Civil War. there is a weird sort of Calvinism here that reminds me a bit of South Africa. it is not really fixable in the sense we are talking about, here. but since i bothered to mention that example, i think SA is actually a model of where we quite possibly are heading, in several respects. i could articulate further, if you would like. there is a mountain of evidence for this. Again, I always welcome discussion. If you want to add more on this to the conversation, go for it.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 22:48:06 GMT -5
I do put faith in the electorate. FWIW, I think the best second choice is governance by we political science majors. Fuck all non-experts. the electorate never chose Trump, bills. and they won't choose him next time, either. THAT is the flaw in your argument. The system is.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 22:53:13 GMT -5
i think there is an ancient wound in the US that remains unhealed. it dates back to before the Civil War. there is a weird sort of Calvinism here that reminds me a bit of South Africa. it is not really fixable in the sense we are talking about, here. but since i bothered to mention that example, i think SA is actually a model of where we quite possibly are heading, in several respects. i could articulate further, if you would like. there is a mountain of evidence for this. Again, I always welcome discussion. If you want to add more on this to the conversation, go for it. the election of Trump was never about economic hardship, as most people at the time assumed. when you dig deeper, it was about "social displacement". i think i have brought this up before. this is a much deeper problem. i felt at the time of this study (2017) that this would be a difficult problem to fix, and i still feel that way. the only way i can think of to address it is to do what the Germans did in the post WW2 period: a systematic, relentless humbling exercise, wallowing in the flaws of a nation gone wrong. THAT is what we need. do you see that happening? i don't. if there is one consistent strain in American politic, it is that we never question our grandeur and self worth. we are SO FAR from being able to SINCERELY assess our shortcomings that i can't imagine it EVER happening. EVER. i would take THAT as an item of faith.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 22:53:54 GMT -5
Still putting a hell of a lot of faith in that coin flip, aren't you? I do put faith in the electorate. FWIW, I think the best second choice is governance by we political science majors. Fuck all non-experts. I don't, but even if I did, the electorate did not choose that wannabe dictator who would be perfectly happy to destroy America as long as he profited from it. The system is already corrupt, and the electorate does not have the power to fix that, certainly at least not in the short term if at all. And a large percentage of the electorate you so badly wish to believe in has amply demonstrated that there is NO reason to have faith in them anyway.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 22:56:53 GMT -5
the electorate never chose Trump, bills. and they won't choose him next time, either. THAT is the flaw in your argument. The system is. flawed? yes. it is. and rather than attempting to fix those defects, the GOP is expanding them. and that makes perfect sense, if you view governing as your God Given Right.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 22:57:45 GMT -5
The bolded is what you are wrong about. The successful election of 2020 and governance of the executive branch since January 20th shows functionality beyond the Judiciary. the reason i said that is because of who i am talking to (you). you have stated more times than i can count that it is the electorate that is the ultimate repository of legitimacy for the legislature and the executive branch- that those are ORGANS of the people. if i got you wrong, let me know. i would rather address JUST THIS POINT before we continue. I am good with that.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 23:04:18 GMT -5
So if the system is fatally flawed, what difference does it make to simply ban Trump?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 23:09:03 GMT -5
the reason i said that is because of who i am talking to (you). you have stated more times than i can count that it is the electorate that is the ultimate repository of legitimacy for the legislature and the executive branch- that those are ORGANS of the people. if i got you wrong, let me know. i would rather address JUST THIS POINT before we continue. I am good with that. ok. the electorate is being systematically undermined, bills. the goal is to make elections LESS democratic so that the electorate is shrunk to the kind of folks you see in your part of Washington on the daily. voting rights for reliably Republican voters will be expanded, and for reliably Democratic voters will be undermined. the net result will be UNFAIR elections. we have already had this for ..... well, forever, really. when have we EVER had truly fair elections? if we had a federal paid holiday for elections, and adequate numbers of places to cast votes, or a national mail-in ballot with tons of time to do so, i think that would be pretty fair. we are heading in the OPPOSITE direction, as you, a PolySci major, certainly know. so, the 2024 election will certainly be LESS fair than 2020. that is really a given. the question then becomes whether we can overcome those deficiencies or not. but to say that the process is not encumbered and handicapped is....well, i would expect more from an expert than to make such a claim.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 23:09:59 GMT -5
So if the system is fatally flawed, what difference does it make to simply ban Trump? i am sure you intended this to be rhetorical, but i have a response. i think Trump is uniquely unqualified to be president. do you need me to articulate why?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 23:13:11 GMT -5
He is the immediate threat, but I for one am not interested in simply banning Trump from running again or holding office. That does nothing to hold him accountable for all of his various criminal and/or treasonous acts. He should be imprisoned for life or executed. Either of those would sufficiently ensure that he could not again be in a position to destroy America, by the way.
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Post by pulmonarymd on Oct 9, 2022 23:15:00 GMT -5
You really have to ask that question? All systems of governance as flawed. But, if the people in governance at least believe in the system, and work within it and at least have a goal yo improve it, it works. The Republican Party has said government is the problem, and have now been reached the point that they no longer have any interest in doing anything. Trump exploited and exacerbated the problem, and by not punishing his criminality, and allowing for the possibility of him becoming president agsin, we will seal our fate and leading yo the break up of this country.
I guess a 250 year run is good enough. But a world where the US no longer exists in its current form will likely be a more dangerous place, and China will be the dominant power. Most of us commenting will be dead before the full effect of that comes to fruition.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 23:16:53 GMT -5
He is the immediate threat, but I for one am not interested in simply banning Trump from running again or holding office. That does nothing to hold him accountable for all of his various criminal and/or treasonous acts. He should be imprisoned for life or executed. Either of those would sufficiently ensure that he could not again be in a position to destroy America, by the way. it would also send a clear message to those with similar aspirations. your punishment is not simply to lose. it is to pay for your criminal conduct as the rest of us do.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 23:19:23 GMT -5
You really have to ask that question? All systems of governance as flawed. But, if the people in governance at least believe in the system, and work within it and at least have a goal yo improve it, it works. The Republican Party has said government is the problem, and have now been reached the point that they no longer have any interest in doing anything. Trump exploited and exacerbated the problem, and by not punishing his criminality, and allowing for the possibility of him becoming president agsin, we will seal our fate and leading yo the break up of this country. I guess a 250 year run is good enough. But a world where the US no longer exists in its current form will likely be a more dangerous place, and China will be the dominant power. Most of us commenting will be dead before the full effect of that comes to fruition. this the seed of everything we see: the root of discontent. it has drawn people into the movement who are natural allies to the left, even. and it is a really sickening disease in the political discourse. and it has been repeated longer than most Americans have been alive. it really is a seriously bad message in a democracy, if that is what we want. apparently it isn't what we want though. well, at least a sizable minority.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 23:21:14 GMT -5
I guess a 250 year run is good enough. But a world where the US no longer exists in its current form will likely be a more dangerous place, and China will be the dominant power. Most of us commenting will be dead before the full effect of that comes to fruition. i have gone to this point more and more. every Empire thinks they will last forever. every Empire is wrong. no Empire lasts forever. to your point about China. they are patient. they have waited 1000 years for this.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 23:22:51 GMT -5
So if the system is fatally flawed, what difference does it make to simply ban Trump? i am sure you intended this to be rhetorical, but i have a response. i think Trump is uniquely unqualified to be president. do you need me to articulate why? I have plenty of my own thoughts on what makes him uniquely unqualified.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 23:27:17 GMT -5
it must suck to see the US gone so far off the rails for you, bills. if the AVERAGE American knew a TENTH of what you do, we would not be in the place we are.
that could start a whole new discussion about why this is NOT the case. but it is probably not a discussion for this thread.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 23:38:36 GMT -5
it must suck to see the US gone so far off the rails for you, bills. if the AVERAGE American knew a TENTH of what you do, we would not be in the place we are. that could start a whole new discussion about why this is NOT the case. but it is probably not a discussion for this thread. It does suck. It sucks from multiple directions.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 23:43:52 GMT -5
He is the immediate threat, but I for one am not interested in simply banning Trump from running again or holding office. That does nothing to hold him accountable for all of his various criminal and/or treasonous acts. He should be imprisoned for life or executed. Either of those would sufficiently ensure that he could not again be in a position to destroy America, by the way. it would also send a clear message to those with similar aspirations. your punishment is not simply to lose. it is to pay for your criminal conduct as the rest of us do. And you think that such people have a psychological mindset that will allow them to process things and change their aspirations? I don't.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 23:44:30 GMT -5
it must suck to see the US gone so far off the rails for you, bills. if the AVERAGE American knew a TENTH of what you do, we would not be in the place we are.that could start a whole new discussion about why this is NOT the case. but it is probably not a discussion for this thread. I have little doubt that the average American only knows a tenth of what several of us do. Given that, I cannot reconcile bill's faith in the electorate. It seems completely misplaced.
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