billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 14:04:50 GMT -5
It is a call to arms but I don't think it will move beyond the call unless he is convicted and jailed. We are ostensibly a nation of laws above all. If we fail to indict, convict, and imprison (or preferably execute) this man and his "army" we have already failed as a nation of both ideals and laws. History has many times shown that appeasers of tyrants do not do well. Please don't be one. A bloodbath is certainly one way to deal with this situation. How many of his "army" do you propose executing? 74 million voted for him.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 14:09:08 GMT -5
2020 showed the bolt wax not faulty. If you do not believe the risk is greater now than it was before, you are naive. Too many Republicans are genuflecting at Trump's knees. We need representatives of character and honor. The Republican party has proven it has neither. I would agree with you if at least some of the house voted for the election reform act, and we didn't have almost 300 election deniers running. Many of them will win, and we will have a far larger number in government now than we do. Many of those in now are just cowardly, not believers. I am not ready to concede the midterms yet.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 9, 2022 14:09:57 GMT -5
the process is fine with men (and women) of character. it is absolutely in jeopardy with tyrants and thieves. And we need to know which the majority of our nation's voters support. Part of the GOP plan over the last few years has been to quietly get election deniers elected into positions overseeing the polling places. In 2024, if Trump runs again, how many local polls will ‘find’ enough votes to usurp the majority of the voters in that district?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 14:11:53 GMT -5
We are ostensibly a nation of laws above all. If we fail to indict, convict, and imprison (or preferably execute) this man and his "army" we have already failed as a nation of both ideals and laws. History has many times shown that appeasers of tyrants do not do well. Please don't be one. A bloodbath is certainly one way to deal with this situation. How many of his "army" do you propose executing? 74 million voted for him. Everyone who entered the building on January 6 would have been a good start, and apparently even Lindsey Graham agrees with that. Anyone who furthered the attempts to overthrow our democracy would be a good follow-up. If the final number ends up being 200, 2000, or two million I'm fine with it. Either way, I find it far preferable to staking the fate of our nation on the equivalent of a coin flip, as you appear willing to do....
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 14:13:23 GMT -5
Being afraid of the consequences of indicting Trump is not the way out of this. If he had a hand in it, he needs to face justice for his actions. Consequences be damned at this point. Apparently 1/3 of this country does not believe in the nature of our government or its rules. They will find another reason to rise up if they wish to, or another, more effective demagogue appears. We need to prosecute Trump to forestall the latter, and be prepared for the consequences. Acting as if we are afraid of their reaction will do nothing but embolden them. I don't think that prosecuting Trump will forestall another demagogue from appearing. The voters rejecting Trump is a better path to take. you're assuming that our voting process will not be so corrupted as to render this verdict impossible. 2024 will be nothing like 2020. at least half the states will see some rollback in voting rights, silencing some portion of the majority. don't think this is just some "new thing". part of the project for the GOP was to bring this to the fore. they are convinced they can't win the popular presidential vote. and for good reason. they have only won it once in 3 decades, or something. so, Florida 2000 was a trial balloon. they repeated the experiment in 2004 in Ohio. and they have been pushing this idea forward even further, to absurd extremes, ever since. this will not end until the CRA is rolled back to a Nordquistian degree, and the path to the Supreme Presidency can be assured.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 14:28:20 GMT -5
And we need to know which the majority of our nation's voters support. Part of the GOP plan over the last few years has been to quietly get election deniers elected into positions overseeing the polling places. In 2024, if Trump runs again, how many local polls will ‘find’ enough votes to usurp the majority of the voters in that district? I am hearing a lot about election deniers attempting to get elected. Doesn't seem to be a quiet effort. The voters need to stop them from being elected. I think that if usurpation happens, it will take place for any GOP candidate and not just if Trump is the nominee.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 14:31:47 GMT -5
I don't think that prosecuting Trump will forestall another demagogue from appearing. The voters rejecting Trump is a better path to take. you're assuming that our voting process will not be so corrupted as to render this verdict impossible. 2024 will be nothing like 2020. at least half the states will see some rollback in voting rights, silencing some portion of the majority. If the process is that corrupted, we have already lost the country.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 14:35:55 GMT -5
you're assuming that our voting process will not be so corrupted as to render this verdict impossible. 2024 will be nothing like 2020. at least half the states will see some rollback in voting rights, silencing some portion of the majority. If the process is that corrupted, we have already lost the country. i didn't say it is, bills. i know you can read. my sentence was "future tense". a) the voting system has been under attack for decades. b) that effort has been "stepped up" since 2020. c) it will be stepped up EVEN FURTHER between now and 2024. given those facts, are you optimistic about 2024? i am not.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 14:37:25 GMT -5
Part of the GOP plan over the last few years has been to quietly get election deniers elected into positions overseeing the polling places. In 2024, if Trump runs again, how many local polls will ‘find’ enough votes to usurp the majority of the voters in that district? I am hearing a lot about election deniers attempting to get elected. Doesn't seem to be a quiet effort. The voters need to stop them from being elected. I think that if usurpation happens, it will take place for any GOP candidate and not just if Trump is the nominee. there will be a lot more to talk about in a month. i agree with that. perhaps it will change the tenor of the discussion. when Speaker McCarthy starts the first impeachment hearing, perhaps?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 14:44:57 GMT -5
you're assuming that our voting process will not be so corrupted as to render this verdict impossible. 2024 will be nothing like 2020. at least half the states will see some rollback in voting rights, silencing some portion of the majority. If the process is that corrupted, we have already lost the country. It isn't yet. And if those attempting to corrupt the process are, shall we say, dealt with appropriately, it won't be.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 14:47:01 GMT -5
If the process is that corrupted, we have already lost the country. i didn't say it is, bills. i know you can read. my sentence was "future tense". a) the voting system has been under attack for decades. b) that effort has been "stepped up" since 2020. c) it will be stepped up EVEN FURTHER between now and 2024. given those facts, are you optimistic about 2024? i am not. And I didn't say it is, I said "if". I am not optimistic about the country's future.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 14:50:35 GMT -5
If the process is that corrupted, we have already lost the country. It isn't yet. And if those attempting to corrupt the process are, shall we say, dealt with appropriately, it won't be. I agree. But we disagree on what is the appropriate way to deal with it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 14:51:29 GMT -5
i didn't say it is, bills. i know you can read. my sentence was "future tense". a) the voting system has been under attack for decades. b) that effort has been "stepped up" since 2020. c) it will be stepped up EVEN FURTHER between now and 2024. given those facts, are you optimistic about 2024? i am not. And I didn't say it is, I said "if". I am not optimistic about the country's future. ok. thanks, bills. sorry i was so testy earlier. i am super worried about what is going on RIGHT NOW. it should not be this close with one month before the elections. i am pretty confident that Democrats will win the Senate, which will shore up the judiciary. i am not nearly as confident about the House, which was, until now, used to hold Trump to account, and to largely uphold democratic institutions. i think you can read between the lines.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 14:54:00 GMT -5
it would nice if Americans could see this election for what it is:
a defense of democratic forces against anti-democratic ones.
unfortunately, that debate doesn't even seem to register to about half the voting public. this is how nations fall. they get distracted by some bogeyman, and run to someone they think can help. and that wolf eats them.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on Oct 9, 2022 15:04:01 GMT -5
A bloodbath is certainly one way to deal with this situation. How many of his "army" do you propose executing? 74 million voted for him. Everyone who entered the building on January 6 would have been a good start, and apparently even Lindsey Graham agrees with that. Anyone who furthered the attempts to overthrow our democracy would be a good follow-up. If the final number ends up being 200, 2000, or two million I'm fine with it. Either way, I find it far preferable to staking the fate of our nation on the equivalent of a coin flip, as you appear willing to do.... I agree. Trump has already committed a crime with the classified documents. We just do not know the extent of the crime, and it appears he still has retained some documents. He needs to be prosecuted. If his followers riot, shoot them just like all the conservatives wanted rioters to be shot during BLM and Antifa riots. If they are willing to die for Trump, far be it for me to stop them. Trying to overthrow an election, and continuing to call the results in question are dangerous to the country. If we believe no one is above the law, we must do it. His followers can complain. They cannot riot. Or, they can all move to Mississippi and Alabama and secede. We won't miss them, and the average IQ of the country will improve.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 15:16:11 GMT -5
Everyone who entered the building on January 6 would have been a good start, and apparently even Lindsey Graham agrees with that. Anyone who furthered the attempts to overthrow our democracy would be a good follow-up. If the final number ends up being 200, 2000, or two million I'm fine with it. Either way, I find it far preferable to staking the fate of our nation on the equivalent of a coin flip, as you appear willing to do.... I agree. Trump has already committed a crime with the classified documents. We just do not know the extent of the crime, and it appears he still has retained some documents. He needs to be prosecuted. If his followers riot, shoot them just like all the conservatives wanted rioters to be shot during BLM and Antifa riots. If they are willing to die for Trump, far be it for me to stop them. Trying to overthrow an election, and continuing to call the results in question are dangerous to the country. If we believe no one is above the law, we must do it. His followers can complain. They cannot riot. Or, they can all move to Mississippi and Alabama and secede. We won't miss them, and the average IQ of the country will improve. That brings up a good point. What we should do is create a reservation where they can all live as they wish. Somewhere like West Texas-New Mexico where they won't bother anyone else. Hell, we did it to/for the Indians who were FAR less of a danger than ReTrumplicans are. And best yet, since they would have their own government on the reservation they wouldn't be voting in and screwing up ours. Can I get a second for the motion?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 15:21:29 GMT -5
I agree. Trump has already committed a crime with the classified documents. We just do not know the extent of the crime, and it appears he still has retained some documents. He needs to be prosecuted. If his followers riot, shoot them just like all the conservatives wanted rioters to be shot during BLM and Antifa riots. If they are willing to die for Trump, far be it for me to stop them. Trying to overthrow an election, and continuing to call the results in question are dangerous to the country. If we believe no one is above the law, we must do it. His followers can complain. They cannot riot. Or, they can all move to Mississippi and Alabama and secede. We won't miss them, and the average IQ of the country will improve. That brings up a good point. What we should do is create a reservation where they can all live as they wish. Somewhere like West Texas-New Mexico where they won't bother anyone else. Hell, we did it to/for the Indians who were FAR less of a danger than ReTrumplicans are. And best yet, since they would have their own government on the reservation they wouldn't be voting in and screwing up ours. Can I get a second for the motion? Texas is the best candidate. they never thought of themselves as a member of the union, they consistently LEAD the anti-democratic debate, and they have their own power grid. let them ROT.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 15:38:46 GMT -5
That brings up a good point. What we should do is create a reservation where they can all live as they wish. Somewhere like West Texas-New Mexico where they won't bother anyone else. Hell, we did it to/for the Indians who were FAR less of a danger than ReTrumplicans are. And best yet, since they would have their own government on the reservation they wouldn't be voting in and screwing up ours. Can I get a second for the motion? Texas is the best candidate. they never thought of themselves as a member of the union, they consistently LEAD the anti-democratic debate, and they have their own power grid. let them ROT. I was going to be generous and throw in a little extra land in south- and east-New Mexico, but no, we need to keep Carlsbad. That's a cool place. West Texas should absolutely fit for the purpose though. Question: Would we have more or less of a border crisis trying to keep ReTrumplicans from crossing back into the U.S. from their "reservation" than we have keeping others from coming in through Mexico? ReTrumplicans are more dangerous, certainly....
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Oct 9, 2022 15:44:09 GMT -5
Anywhere south of the Mason~Dixon line is fine with me. Let them secede and us blue staters can stop wasting our money supporting them.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 15:46:59 GMT -5
Anywhere south of the Mason~Dixon line is fine with me. Let them secede and us blue staters can stop wasting our money supporting them. No, we have set the policy already. Can't be anywhere with any good land. The Indians didn't get any, did they?
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Oct 9, 2022 15:49:25 GMT -5
Anywhere south of the Mason~Dixon line is fine with me. Let them secede and us blue staters can stop wasting our money supporting them. No, we have set the policy already. Can't be anywhere with any good land. The Indians didn't get any, did they? Oil and casinos?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 9, 2022 15:57:23 GMT -5
Being afraid of the consequences of indicting Trump is not the way out of this. If he had a hand in it, he needs to face justice for his actions. Consequences be damned at this point. Apparently 1/3 of this country does not believe in the nature of our government or its rules. They will find another reason to rise up if they wish to, or another, more effective demagogue appears. We need to prosecute Trump to forestall the latter, and be prepared for the consequences. Acting as if we are afraid of their reaction will do nothing but embolden them. I don't think that prosecuting Trump will forestall another demagogue from appearing. The voters rejecting Trump is a better path to take. How did that work out in the 2020 election? The Big Lie and an attack on the Capitol by trump supporters. All from the mouth of the 2020 presidential election loser. And it is continuing almost two years after the election.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 16:06:11 GMT -5
No, we have set the policy already. Can't be anywhere with any good land. The Indians didn't get any, did they? Oil and casinos? Just because we give them the land doesn't mean we automatically include the mineral rights. I have an interest in some oil wells but I don't own the land. And I'm sure that there would be enough casinos on non-ReTrumplican land that they would not get a massive inflow of cash from the rest of us there either. Besides, if it turns out there is anything valuable on reservation land we just confiscate that land and give them something worse. We did it to the Sioux in the Black Hills....
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 16:30:12 GMT -5
I don't think that prosecuting Trump will forestall another demagogue from appearing. The voters rejecting Trump is a better path to take. How did that work out in the 2020 election? The Big Lie and an attack on the Capitol by trump supporters. All from the mouth of the 2020 presidential election loser. And it is continuing almost two years after the election. Well, Biden won the election so that part worked well. The Big Lie didn't lead to any change in results so that was good. The insurrection petered out quickly. Prosecution of offenders is proceeding nicely. Nothing big has happened over the two years. So i see no real issues.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 16:43:43 GMT -5
How did that work out in the 2020 election? The Big Lie and an attack on the Capitol by trump supporters. All from the mouth of the 2020 presidential election loser. And it is continuing almost two years after the election. Well, Biden won the election so that part worked well. The Big Lie didn't lead to any change in results so that was good. The insurrection petered out quickly. Prosecution of offenders is proceeding nicely. Nothing big has happened over the two years. So i see no real issues. And I'm sure there are a number of hurricane victims who weren't worried at all...until the storm shifted and the water actually entered their homes. Or, more to the point for you, I'm sure that nobody who ever died in a skydiving accident was worried, until they pulled the cord and nothing happened. Just because we have not hit the tipping point yet does not mean that the danger is not there. Intelligent people do not simply respond to the worst-case disaster after it happens. They plan and do everything reasonably possible to prevent it from happening in the first place.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 17:23:51 GMT -5
Texas is the best candidate. they never thought of themselves as a member of the union, they consistently LEAD the anti-democratic debate, and they have their own power grid. let them ROT. I was going to be generous and throw in a little extra land in south- and east-New Mexico, but no, we need to keep Carlsbad. That's a cool place. West Texas should absolutely fit for the purpose though. Question: Would we have more or less of a border crisis trying to keep ReTrumplicans from crossing back into the U.S. from their "reservation" than we have keeping others from coming in through Mexico? ReTrumplicans are more dangerous, certainly.... if i am not mistaken, Texas has more land border with Mexico than any other two states combined, and more OPEN (wall-less) border than the other three combined. so, yeah, this would go a long way to fixing the problem. the Blue states can manage the issue better than the Red states, imo.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2022 17:26:10 GMT -5
Well, Biden won the election so that part worked well. The Big Lie didn't lead to any change in results so that was good. The insurrection petered out quickly. Prosecution of offenders is proceeding nicely. Nothing big has happened over the two years. So i see no real issues. And I'm sure there are a number of hurricane victims who weren't worried at all...until the storm shifted and the water actually entered their homes. Or, more to the point for you, I'm sure that nobody who ever died in a skydiving accident was worried, until they pulled the cord and nothing happened. Just because we have not hit the tipping point yet does not mean that the danger is not there. Intelligent people do not simply respond to the worst-case disaster after it happens. They plan and do everything possible to prevent it from happening in the first place. And stupid people undertake knee-jerk emotional actions that make situations worse. Intelligent people don't do "everything possible". They do risk/benefit analysis.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2022 17:26:55 GMT -5
precisely why i want him unable to run for office.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 17:30:34 GMT -5
I was going to be generous and throw in a little extra land in south- and east-New Mexico, but no, we need to keep Carlsbad. That's a cool place. West Texas should absolutely fit for the purpose though. Question: Would we have more or less of a border crisis trying to keep ReTrumplicans from crossing back into the U.S. from their "reservation" than we have keeping others from coming in through Mexico? ReTrumplicans are more dangerous, certainly.... if i am not mistaken, Texas has more land border with Mexico than any other two states combined, and more OPEN (wall-less) border than the other three combined. so, yeah, this would go a long way to fixing the problem. the Blue states can manage the issue better than the Red states, imo. Well, when the whole issue of building the wall was a debate, I always fell back on the words of Will Hurd, who was a Republican House member from Texas. His district alone contained (as I recall) over 800 miles of the 2000-mile border. I am not specifically aware of your stats, but would not be at all surprised.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2022 17:35:58 GMT -5
And I'm sure there are a number of hurricane victims who weren't worried at all...until the storm shifted and the water actually entered their homes. Or, more to the point for you, I'm sure that nobody who ever died in a skydiving accident was worried, until they pulled the cord and nothing happened. Just because we have not hit the tipping point yet does not mean that the danger is not there. Intelligent people do not simply respond to the worst-case disaster after it happens. They plan and do everything possible to prevent it from happening in the first place. And stupid people undertake knee-jerk emotional actions that make situations worse. Intelligent people don't do "everything possible". They do risk/benefit analysis. You know what is really sad here? I went back and edited the post (inserting the word "reasonably") because re-reading it I was about 98% sure that you would nit-pick that part of it and not take it for granted that was what was meant. That fact that you actually did exactly that is disappointing.
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