pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 7, 2020 13:10:44 GMT -5
I was thinking the other night about 9/11 and the Patriot Act. I remember Dark posting something about how if people really knew what was in it it would make their hair curl. I remember how much people justified to me that we had to have the Patriot Act in place because we need to be protected against terrorists and that the threat of terrorism was worth giving up some of our privacy. But now we can't get people to wear a mask and refuse to let their cell phones be used for contact tracing like in SK. It is their God given right not to wear a mask and the government needs to respect their privacy. This pandemic will kill more Americas that terrorism ever has. I would like to sit here and claim that it is because we learned our lesson from the Patriot Act but did we REALLY? Or do we as human beings have difficulty properly assessing threats? In particular Americans with our values that put the "rugged individual" above society's welfare? People don't trust gov't or the news because they don't have a reason to do so. The image of the newscaster floating along in a boat while people walk in 2" water behind her is all you need to know about these people. 1) Newsrooms are trying to get a story 2) Doctors are erring on the side of caution because you can't be blamed for doing that 3) Politicians can always justify their position using whatever data backs their decision. The US public knows this and it's no wonder that there are protests. There is no question that transmissions rates will be lower if everyone stays inside, but what are you going to do that for 18 months? No, we err on the side of caution to save lives, this situation has a lot of unknowns. To recklessly act as if things can go back normal when there is no data to support it. If we decide to ignore that advice, we should be upfront about the cost on lives, instead of burying reports as trump is doing. There is clearly a trade off in economic damage, so the question is how many people are we willing to sacrifice.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on May 7, 2020 14:05:16 GMT -5
Idk, I have two minds on this.
First of all, we owe it to Medical Workers to make sure that the working conditions they have are as safe as we can possibly make them. We should do what we can to make sure hospitals are not overwhelmed.
But everyone needs to be bailed out? We are going to run out of bailout money in short order. Yesterday it was farmers who can't send their livestock to slaughter houses b/c too many workers tested positive for COVID -19. Today they are saying the Wisconsin Unemployment fund will run out of $$ by October, and it just seems to go on and on.
I have to agree that we need to proceed in a cautious manner and open as many businesses in a safe(er?) manner or as safe as we can make it. And we as citizens and consumers have to do what we can to limit our risk of getting Covid-19, like staying out of stores, washing our hands and disinfecting surfaces maintaining social distance and wearing masks.
I don't know where people think they have the right to do whatever they want and disobey and attack Police Officers or Shoot People because they are told to do something they don't want to do.
The Right's Right to Life Platform needs some serious work and clarification. Exactly what life is of value to them and under what conditions?
ETA: I do think a large part of the Problem is a Vacuum of Leadership. Trump Encouraged People to defend their Second Amendment rights, but how was this related to the Second Amendment? Then we ended up with people shooting other people because they did not want to wear a mask?
I think Meat Packing Plants should be shut down or have modified rules of operation.if they have large numbers of employees testing positive. But why aren't our leaders telling us to Eat Smaller Portions of Meat, or committ to something like Meatless Mondays and Fasting Fridays or Meat Free Fridays. Many of us manage to go through Lent without eating Meat on Fridays, we could extend that in light of the current state of emergency with very little sacrifice.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 7, 2020 14:25:30 GMT -5
Idk, I have two minds on this. First of all, we owe it to Medical Workers to make sure that the working conditions they have are as safe as we can possibly make them. We should do what we can to make sure hospitals are not overwhelmed. But everyone needs to be bailed out? We are going to run out of bailout money in short order. Yesterday it was farmers who can't send their livestock to slaughter houses b/c too many workers tested positive for COVID -19. Today they are saying the Wisconsin Unemployment fund will run out of $$ by October, and it just seems to go on and on. I have to agree that we need to proceed in a cautious manner and open as many businesses in a safe(er?) manner or as safe as we can make it. And we as citizens and consumers have to do what we can to limit our risk of getting Covid-19, like staying out of stores, washing our hands and disinfecting surfaces maintaining social distance and wearing masks. I don't know where people think they have the right to do whatever they want and disobey and attack Police Officers or Shoot People because they are told to do something they don't want to do. The Right's Right to Life Platform needs some serious work and clarification. Exactly what life is of value to them and under what conditions? ETA: I do think a large part of the Problem is a Vacuum of Leadership. Trump Encouraged People to defend their Second Amendment rights, but how was this related to the Second Amendment? Then we ended up with people shooting other people because they did not want to wear a mask? I think Meat Packing Plants should be shut down or have modified rules of operation.if they have large numbers of employees testing positive. But why aren't our leaders telling us to Eat Smaller Portions of Meat, or committ to something like Meatless Mondays and Fasting Fridays or Meat Free Fridays. Many of us manage to go through Lent without eating Meat on Fridays, we could extend that in light of the current state of emergency with very little sacrifice. You mean leaders like Trump? Well-done steaks and haberders are ALL he eats. I'm sure he hasn't had a bowel movement since 1982.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 7, 2020 14:46:48 GMT -5
I was thinking the other night about 9/11 and the Patriot Act. I remember Dark posting something about how if people really knew what was in it it would make their hair curl. I remember how much people justified to me that we had to have the Patriot Act in place because we need to be protected against terrorists and that the threat of terrorism was worth giving up some of our privacy. But now we can't get people to wear a mask and refuse to let their cell phones be used for contact tracing like in SK. It is their God given right not to wear a mask and the government needs to respect their privacy. This pandemic will kill more Americas that terrorism ever has. I would like to sit here and claim that it is because we learned our lesson from the Patriot Act but did we REALLY? Or do we as human beings have difficulty properly assessing threats? In particular Americans with our values that put the "rugged individual" above society's welfare? People don't trust gov't or the news because they don't have a reason to do so. The image of the newscaster floating along in a boat while people walk in 2" water behind her is all you need to know about these people. 1) Newsrooms are trying to get a story 2) Doctors are erring on the side of caution because you can't be blamed for doing that 3) Politicians can always justify their position using whatever data backs their decision. The US public knows this and it's no wonder that there are protests. There is no question that transmissions rates will be lower if everyone stays inside, but what are you going to do that for 18 months? Maybe some people don't trust the news or govt because of experiences like yours, but it more seems like biting off your nose to spite your face. Every profession is made up of people. That means some are going to be lazy, take shortcuts, and throw drama. That doesn't discount all the people who do good or tell most of the truth. I'm really wondering where you are to see reporters floating in flat bottom boats in 2 inches of water. Luckily I don't see weirdness like that. What I notice and remember are things I am glad they are showing on TV. The towers burning. A police car washed over a lot to another street because a large wave breached a sea wall. Fire fighters rowing to second floor windows to rescue people because the flooding has gone past the first floor. Some of this is quite regional, but it may not stay that way if the states with less dense population go on benders and travel to crowded places. (The virus, seawalls obviously are. )
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 7, 2020 15:29:07 GMT -5
Because anyone who looks at suicide via depression/mental health vs suicide via someone who is likely to die anyways and is choosing to end their life on their own terms is a level 1 thinker. Just like if I get into a horrific car accident with my guts flowing out of me and I decide to slit my throat rather than bleed out. I died BECAUSE I was in a horrible car accident. People do die from what they die from, but the meaning derived from it is far more complex than just the simple and most direct thing that led to their death. You are such a deep thinker. The cause of death is the cause of death, you do not adjust the numbers down because you think you should. There are unexplained deaths, and if the fit the case definition, you can adjust upwards, and if on further review they don’t, then remove them. We then analyze the deaths for risk factors to make someone more likely to get sick and die. Most infectious diseases affect the old, young, and sick. We do not adjust the number downward based on your arbitrary criteria. That’s how medicine does it. No matter how many paragraphs and posts you make to argue differently Yes, the "cause of death" is the "cause of death", and it's absolutely meaningless. That is how medicine does it...that's the point, medicine does it in a way that's meaningless. You're arguing "but this is how we do it". I agree, that's how you do it. You do it in a way that's stupid and meaningless, but quick to do without much thought. I'm not arguing that isn't how medicine does it...I'm arguing anyone who thinks it is meaningful is dumb as dirt. People who think it is meaningful are the same people who would see a society where everyone with a terminal disease is allowed to end their own life in the late stages of dying and then looks at the numbers and says "oh my god, nobody died of terminal cancer last year, we've eliminated deadly cancers because nobody died!" Your argument of "well that's how medicine does it, so that's the reasoning" is the reason people who don't understand something always argue their point. I don't even care that medicine does this in a stupid way, because intelligent doctors understand that it's meaningless but is a base task to do. I only care when people try to assign meaning to something that is meaningless because it supports a dishonest point they're trying to trick people into believing.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2020 15:32:58 GMT -5
Oh, Lawd...
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 7, 2020 15:40:25 GMT -5
You are such a deep thinker. The cause of death is the cause of death, you do not adjust the numbers down because you think you should. There are unexplained deaths, and if the fit the case definition, you can adjust upwards, and if on further review they don’t, then remove them. We then analyze the deaths for risk factors to make someone more likely to get sick and die. Most infectious diseases affect the old, young, and sick. We do not adjust the number downward based on your arbitrary criteria. That’s how medicine does it. No matter how many paragraphs and posts you make to argue differently Yes, the "cause of death" is the "cause of death", and it's absolutely meaningless. That is how medicine does it...that's the point, medicine does it in a way that's meaningless. You're arguing "but this is how we do it". I agree, that's how you do it. You do it in a way that's stupid and meaningless, but quick to do without much thought. I'm not arguing that isn't how medicine does it...I'm arguing anyone who thinks it is meaningful is dumb as dirt. People who think it is meaningful are the same people who would see a society where everyone with a terminal disease is allowed to end their own life in the late stages of dying and then looks at the numbers and says "oh my god, nobody died of terminal cancer last year, we've eliminated deadly cancers because nobody died!" Your argument of "well that's how medicine does it, so that's the reasoning" is the reason people who don't understand something always argue their point. I don't even care that medicine does this in a stupid way, because intelligent doctors understand that it's meaningless but is a base task to do. I only care when people try to assign meaning to something that is meaningless because it supports a dishonest point they're trying to trick people into believing. You are so much smarter than everyone else. Congratulations you know how we should do it. A patient with metastatic cancer who died from heart disease died from heart disease, and you think that is unimportant? You have to be kidding me. All infections kill off the weak, pneumonia, influenza, and the like. It is important to know. Who and how they get it is the underlying question, but does not change that fact. To prevent it, you look at the underlying causes, try to prevent those, and learn how to treat the acute problem. But saying, I know the died of the infection, but that didn’t really kill them is not answering the entire story. I know you will come back and insult my intelligence again. But it is a good thing you are not a physician
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on May 7, 2020 16:59:32 GMT -5
People don't trust gov't or the news because they don't have a reason to do so. The image of the newscaster floating along in a boat while people walk in 2" water behind her is all you need to know about these people. 1) Newsrooms are trying to get a story 2) Doctors are erring on the side of caution because you can't be blamed for doing that 3) Politicians can always justify their position using whatever data backs their decision. The US public knows this and it's no wonder that there are protests. There is no question that transmissions rates will be lower if everyone stays inside, but what are you going to do that for 18 months? No, we err on the side of caution to save lives, this situation has a lot of unknowns. To recklessly act as if things can go back normal when there is no data to support it. If we decide to ignore that advice, we should be upfront about the cost on lives, instead of burying reports as trump is doing. There is clearly a trade off in economic damage, so the question is how many people are we willing to sacrifice. Who said go back to normal? If you're going to allow Home Depot to have people coming into their stores, I don't know how you can argue that they shouldn't be able to do the same at Joe's Furniture as long as they are taking the same precautions.
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pulmonarymd
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Post by pulmonarymd on May 7, 2020 17:09:33 GMT -5
No, we err on the side of caution to save lives, this situation has a lot of unknowns. To recklessly act as if things can go back normal when there is no data to support it. If we decide to ignore that advice, we should be upfront about the cost on lives, instead of burying reports as trump is doing. There is clearly a trade off in economic damage, so the question is how many people are we willing to sacrifice. Who said go back to normal? If you're going to allow Home Depot to have people coming into their stores, I don't know how you can argue that they shouldn't be able to do the same at Joe's Furniture as long as they are taking the same precautions. I agree with you about opening up. I was disagreeing for why doctors were saying the things we are saying. It is almost 100% certain that infections will go back up with loosening of restrictions, and some people will die. There is a trade off, just like people who are looking at the economic fallout of the lockdown. It is the opening up without a logical approach I disagree with, just like the argument you made has a reasonable logic attached. The furniture store is something that should reopen in the first wave with the same restrictions. Makes sense
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2020 18:28:49 GMT -5
You are so much smarter than everyone else. Congratulations you know how we should do it. A patient with metastatic cancer who died from heart disease died from heart disease, and you think that is unimportant? You have to be kidding me. All infections kill off the weak, pneumonia, influenza, and the like. It is important to know. Who and how they get it is the underlying question, but does not change that fact. To prevent it, you look at the underlying causes, try to prevent those, and learn how to treat the acute problem. But saying, I know the died of the infection, but that didn’t really kill them is not answering the entire story. I know you will come back and insult my intelligence again. But it is a good thing you are not a physician And yet, has no idea there are multiple causes of death on many death certificates. My late husband's listed 4, for example. As my mom used to say - everyone dies of the same thing - cardiac arrest. It's the cause of said cardiac arrest that matters. As to Point B - some people get off on that because clearly they lack something in their own lives. As for being doctors, people are who they are, not always who they claim to be online. Everyone should remember that.
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