In light of the projected walloping increase in virus cases

[Deleted]

that even trump acknowledges, why on earth is there a great push to "open up the economy"? How will it help the economy to have thousands of people getting sick and dying daily? If money is the motivator, then the more illness, the more death, the more expensive, right?

Are people getting so casual about the numbers that they can't see beyond right now? We've gotten so used to instant gratification that we seem to go along with what we want rather than what's needed for the greater good.

Am I so dense that I can't see the benefit of relaxing the rules and am missing the big picture?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I believe the push is most states cannot afford to pay out the amounts of UE they are facing.  If your industry is open then they have grounds to deny you UE because after all you COULD work but are "choosing" not to because you have decided that your health/life/the health of your loved ones is more important than being a productive member of society.

I'm also sure money is greasing palms.  Don't tell me someone didn't pull strings to get my industry deemed "essential" which if you really think about we aren't there is a thing called antibiotics that could be used as a stop gap for a few months.  They aren't going to be buying our product right now with having to sacrifice so many heads of cattle and pigs.   BUT since we are "part of the food production system" we have to be here.   The definition of "essential" was already loose to begin with and I think more and more businesses are pushing to take advantage of that.

I get it if they don't make money I don't have a job but myself I would appreciate them being honest about it.  I am a worthy sacrifice in the name if you making a buck.  In turn I take that buck to pay the bills.  Please don't send me letters thanking me and telling me how much you appreciate me we all know it's BS.

I also don't blame people like nail technicians, tattoo artists, stylists and other independent contractors being frustrated right now.   They were supposed to receive help but have yet to get anything the modifications for UE haven't gone through here and many got screwed out of the small business loan in both rounds.    I can understand that when faced with losing everything they are weighing the risks.   IMO I am not entirely against that being their choice it is then up to consumers if they want to follow.

[oped]

They don’t believe the numbers. They have been conditioned to shout hoax and fake news.

[giramomma]

Besides the economic of having to pay for UE, I also think that it's more palatable for old people to die  (particularly in nursing homes) than it is to deal with civil unrest and whatever deaths may come from that.

I used to think all the talk of civil unrest was poppycock.  Now, I'm not so sure.

[oped]

Oh and poor black people. Don't forget that. Its a horrible truth... but poor people of color dying isn't a problem with many of these people. 

These fucking cowards may get civil unrest in ways they never realized. 

[hoops902]

I think the key is "when is there likely to be a vaccine"?  If a vaccine is a year away...you can't just shut down the economy for a year.  So whether you open it today or open it in a month, or two months, or 6 months...those people who are going to die from the virus are going to die from the virus.  

The goal is not to overwhelm hospitals...so if you're in an area where they are not overwhelmed, you can afford to have a bit more exposure now.  

People still seem to misunderstand the stated goals of the government (which I get, because personal goals might be very different).  It is not to keep people from getting the virus, it is to slow the spread to the point that healthcare can handle it...and as long as that measure is met to keep the economy going.

[hoops902]

May 5, 2020 7:26:10 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I believe the push is most states cannot afford to pay out the amounts of UE they are facing.  If your industry is open then they have grounds to deny you UE because after all you COULD work but are "choosing" not to because you have decided that your health/life/the health of your loved ones is more important than being a productive member of society.

I'm also sure money is greasing palms.  Don't tell me someone didn't pull strings to get my industry deemed "essential" which if you really think about we aren't there is a thing called antibiotics that could be used as a stop gap for a few months.  They aren't going to be buying our product right now with having to sacrifice so many heads of cattle and pigs.   BUT since we are "part of the food production system" we have to be here.   The definition of "essential" was already loose to begin with and I think more and more businesses are pushing to take advantage of that.

I get it if they don't make money I don't have a job but myself I would appreciate them being honest about it.  I am a worthy sacrifice in the name if you making a buck.  In turn I take that buck to pay the bills.  Please don't send me letters thanking me and telling me how much you appreciate me we all know it's BS.

I also don't blame people like nail technicians, tattoo artists, stylists and other independent contractors being frustrated right now.   They were supposed to receive help but have yet to get anything the modifications for UE haven't gone through here and many got screwed out of the small business loan in both rounds.    I can understand that when faced with losing everything they are weighing the risks.   IMO I am not entirely against that being their choice it is then up to consumers if they want to follow.

That would be terrible politics though.  They don't say this to anyone even without the virus...why would they say it now?  Imagine if the military pitch was "we're willing to sacrifice you to save some money at the gas station".  Thanking people and telling them you appreciate them is how you handle people who are disposable...you make them feel important which in turn motivates others to volunteer to do it as well.  You have to give them something...pump up the ego a bit...there has to be some motivation to do it.

[oped]

We need massive testing and contract tracing. And lots more PPE.  Another month was fucking wasted in April when the federal government should have been coordinating efforts, instead of stealing from states and playing politics. 

[dannylion]

May 5, 2020 7:30:20 GMT -5 oped said:

They don’t believe the numbers. They have been conditioned to shout hoax and fake news.

I also think that on those rare occasions when reality seeps through the fog of delusion, they believe that the people who get sick and die will be someone else, not them or anyone they know or care about.  I also believe some of those loons actually believe that the folks getting sick and dying somehow "deserve" it, sort of like the attitude of similar-minded "good people" during the AIDS crisis.  

[giramomma]

May 5, 2020 8:46:35 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

People still seem to misunderstand the stated goals of the government (which I get, because personal goals might be very different).  It is not to keep people from getting the virus, it is to slow the spread to the point that healthcare can handle it...and as long as that measure is met to keep the economy going.

Let's face it. There's not going to be measures, at least in the way that we need. Eventually, we are going to move to a choice between completely open or completely shut.

I think we'll be asked to choose. Thankfully, we can continue to protect ourselves and our kids through fall when completely opening up becomes the only choice.

[pulmonarymd]

Again, the plan should be to find the "sweet spot" where infections are tamped down to an acceptable level, and we can have some semblance of being "open". But, based on the reaction to wearing masks, and the lack of distancing being exhibited in places, I do not believe people have gotten that message, and that is the fault of the current administration. In the best scenario as outlined above, the economy shrinks 15-20%. In either fully open or fully closed, it shrinks 40-50%. To get to the best case scenario, we all need to sacrifice some, but we would come out at the other end in better shape. Again, this message needs to be communicated clearly but our leaders. They get a failing grade at the national level. We should be loosening restrictions gradually now, so we can know what life will be like in the fall, and not have to initiate a viscious lookdown again.

[hoops902]

May 5, 2020 9:04:35 GMT -5 giramomma said:

May 5, 2020 8:46:35 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

People still seem to misunderstand the stated goals of the government (which I get, because personal goals might be very different).  It is not to keep people from getting the virus, it is to slow the spread to the point that healthcare can handle it...and as long as that measure is met to keep the economy going.

Let's face it. There's not going to be measures, at least in the way that we need. Eventually, we are going to move to a choice between completely open or completely shut.

I think we'll be asked to choose. Thankfully, we can continue to protect ourselves and our kids through fall when completely opening up becomes the only choice.

There is no choice between completely open and completely shut.  Even what people are calling "completely shut" isn't anything remotely resembling "completely".  It's like saying "My house is completely off limits...except the living room, dining room, kitchen, bedrooms, and bathrooms because those...but the coat closet...totally off limits...so I'm completely off limits".  

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

May 5, 2020 8:48:50 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

May 5, 2020 7:26:10 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I believe the push is most states cannot afford to pay out the amounts of UE they are facing.  If your industry is open then they have grounds to deny you UE because after all you COULD work but are "choosing" not to because you have decided that your health/life/the health of your loved ones is more important than being a productive member of society.

I'm also sure money is greasing palms.  Don't tell me someone didn't pull strings to get my industry deemed "essential" which if you really think about we aren't there is a thing called antibiotics that could be used as a stop gap for a few months.  They aren't going to be buying our product right now with having to sacrifice so many heads of cattle and pigs.   BUT since we are "part of the food production system" we have to be here.   The definition of "essential" was already loose to begin with and I think more and more businesses are pushing to take advantage of that.

I get it if they don't make money I don't have a job but myself I would appreciate them being honest about it.  I am a worthy sacrifice in the name if you making a buck.  In turn I take that buck to pay the bills.  Please don't send me letters thanking me and telling me how much you appreciate me we all know it's BS.

I also don't blame people like nail technicians, tattoo artists, stylists and other independent contractors being frustrated right now.   They were supposed to receive help but have yet to get anything the modifications for UE haven't gone through here and many got screwed out of the small business loan in both rounds.    I can understand that when faced with losing everything they are weighing the risks.   IMO I am not entirely against that being their choice it is then up to consumers if they want to follow.

That would be terrible politics though.  They don't say this to anyone even without the virus...why would they say it now?  Imagine if the military pitch was "we're willing to sacrifice you to save some money at the gas station".  Thanking people and telling them you appreciate them is how you handle people who are disposable...you make them feel important which in turn motivates others to volunteer to do it as well.  You have to give them something...pump up the ego a bit...there has to be some motivation to do it.

Yeah I know.  I just get tired of it personally because I'm a cynical asshole.  Especially right now as they lay it on extra thick in hopes of keeping people at their desks.

[saveinla]

There is a thread on twitter - threadreaderapp.com/thread/1257517816950820864.html


Today I got the idea to put together a thread of every public official, elected or appointed, who is advocating for or trying to normalize mass die-offs as a right and just sacrifice to make for the sake of The Economy (tm). I'll start with Chris Christie

[Deleted]

It's very hard to figure out what's going on based solely on numbers.  Testing has increased.  In my state, the lab I use for routine bloodwork didn't have COVID-19 tests till last week.  Now they do although you require a doctor's order for it.  If this is going on elsewhere, of course the number of cases will increase.  Similarly, since tests are being focused on at-risk populations such as nursing homes and meat-packing plants, when you come through one of those sites and test everyone you're going to have a spike in reported cases.  Tragic and we need to work harder to prevent those cases, but that's not an indication of the risk to a shopper in Costco who's wearing a mask, practicing social distancing and washing hands frequently.

From what I read in social media, including here, few people are going to run out into the streets and party when restrictions are lifted.  I know I'm not.  I'm the one who has to live with the consequences of any risk I take- not some politician or political donor from Big Business.  

We'll never know if we got the balance right between shutting too much down to prevent transmission and opening up too quickly to get businesses up and running again- unless we realize, in retrospect that we did it too quickly after we get a second wave of infections.  That would have a devastating effect if we needed to shut down again.

[movingforward]

May 5, 2020 8:11:35 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Besides the economic of having to pay for UE, I also think that it's more palatable for old people to die  (particularly in nursing homes) than it is to deal with civil unrest and whatever deaths may come from that.

I used to think all the talk of civil unrest was poppycock.  Now, I'm not so sure.

What is happening in the nursing homes is terrible and I certainly don't think their lives are expendable; however the average time spent in a nursing home is around 24 months. Most will die from something other than COVID before a vaccine is even available. When you are weighing people being able to feed their families and civil unrest against nursing home statistics...

And though I know it has to be done, I feel just awful for the people in nursing homes not being able to have visitors. Many will die without ever seeing or hugging their loved ones again.

[Deleted]

My Dad will most likely end up in a nursing home after he's discharged from rehab.  He's 89, he's had a stroke and has "significant brain atrophy", talking with him on the phone is a painful exercise because I can barely understand him.  This is a man who was the first in his family to go to college, started investing when I was a teenager, taught me how to put a bike chain back into place when it falls off.  Despite doing everything on-line for years he's having a hard time with the simplest technology.

Mom died in late 2016 and he misses her.  The rehab place was absolutely paranoid about COVID- 19; they put him in generic clothing till they could take away and wash his clothing and return it to him.  I'm all for prevention but if Dad ends up with COVID-19 right now, it would be a far better end than it was his brother, who died years after being diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

[giramomma]

May 5, 2020 9:21:24 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

May 5, 2020 9:04:35 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Let's face it. There's not going to be measures, at least in the way that we need. Eventually, we are going to move to a choice between completely open or completely shut.

I think we'll be asked to choose. Thankfully, we can continue to protect ourselves and our kids through fall when completely opening up becomes the only choice.

There is no choice between completely open and completely shut.  Even what people are calling "completely shut" isn't anything remotely resembling "completely".  It's like saying "My house is completely off limits...except the living room, dining room, kitchen, bedrooms, and bathrooms because those...but the coat closet...totally off limits...so I'm completely off limits".  

OK. Yes, You are right. There is no such thing as completely shut.

But are you seriously going to tell me that having NO testing, NO tracing, and NO social distancing requirements is the same thing as taking measured steps?

In the absence of appropriate levels of testing, having PPE, contract tracing and social distancing, what are the measure then that you are suggesting that are happening?

That's what I'm seeing happening, right now with child care in my neck of the woods, in particular.

[pulmonarymd]

If we could have honest end of life discussion that would be a positive outcome. People in nursing homes run the gamut from completely dependent and confused, to needing a some help but aware and interactive. As a country, we do not accept that people are at the end of their life, and comfort is more important than continuing a life that will continue to decline. The lockdown of the nursing homes is an unfortunate outcome, but the disaster that happens if this infection gets in one is unreal. We are having to make all kinds of unpalatable decisions at present. Another reason we need to try to have some semblance of control of this pandemic

[swamp]

May 5, 2020 9:23:37 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

May 5, 2020 8:48:50 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

That would be terrible politics though.  They don't say this to anyone even without the virus...why would they say it now?  Imagine if the military pitch was "we're willing to sacrifice you to save some money at the gas station".  Thanking people and telling them you appreciate them is how you handle people who are disposable...you make them feel important which in turn motivates others to volunteer to do it as well.  You have to give them something...pump up the ego a bit...there has to be some motivation to do it.

Yeah I know.  I just get tired of it personally because I'm a cynical asshole.  Especially right now as they lay it on extra thick in hopes of keeping people at their desks.

Which is why we   you. 

[hoops902]

May 5, 2020 10:07:09 GMT -5 giramomma said:

May 5, 2020 9:21:24 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

There is no choice between completely open and completely shut.  Even what people are calling "completely shut" isn't anything remotely resembling "completely".  It's like saying "My house is completely off limits...except the living room, dining room, kitchen, bedrooms, and bathrooms because those...but the coat closet...totally off limits...so I'm completely off limits".  

OK. Yes, You are right. There is no such thing as completely shut.

But are you seriously going to tell me that having NO testing, NO tracing, and NO social distancing requirements is the same thing as taking measured steps?

In the absence of appropriate levels of testing, having PPE, contract tracing and social distancing, what are the measure then that you are suggesting that are happening?

That's what I'm seeing happening, right now with child care in my neck of the woods, in particular.

I'm not sure what you're talking about.  YOU are the one who said there would be no measures.  I said the measure of how open things should be is the level of healthcare available.  Then you started saying something about the measures in place, using "measure" in a completely different context.  The GOAL is not to overwhelm healthcare, that's the measure levels of openness should be judged by.

I said nothing about PPE, tracing, distancing...it doesn't even relate to my post.  

[hoops902]

It's also worth noting that while there is no such thing as COMPLETELY shut.  What people are calling completely shut isn't even CLOSE to that.  There's a big difference between "completely closed" where there are only a few slight exceptions and "completely closed" which is really more like 50% open which is what completely closed really is.  So yeah, i think there's actually a decent chance that it won't be one or the other...why would it need to be 100% open or 50% open?  There are simple logical steps to being 75% open for example (that doesn't mean it'll happen, but it wouldn't be difficult to parse some things out)

[oped]

Oh fuck. It really sounds like the Wisconsin Supreme Court is going to overule the Governor's stay at home order. 

[oped]

May 5, 2020 9:15:19 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

 To get to the best case scenario, we all need to sacrifice some, but we would come out at the other end in better shape. 

I was raised on Ayn Rand, and while I've left most of the fairy tales behind, I've always been fond of her definition of the word sacrifice. 

We don't need to 'sacrifice some' ... we need to Prioritize Differently... and that is ultimately why we will fail.  In general American's have fucked up priorities... the Christian Right maybe more than all the rest.  

[billisonboard]

May 5, 2020 11:08:18 GMT -5 oped said:

Oh fuck. It really sounds like the Wisconsin Supreme Court is going to overule the Governor's stay at home order. 

That could be an interesting ruling, will they void it or micromanage what she can and can't do.

[billisonboard]

May 5, 2020 11:12:30 GMT -5 oped said:

May 5, 2020 9:15:19 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

 To get to the best case scenario, we all need to sacrifice some, but we would come out at the other end in better shape. 

I was raised on Ayn Rand, and while I've left most of the fairy tales behind, I've always been fond of her definition of the word sacrifice. 

We don't need to 'sacrifice some' ... we need to Prioritize Differently... and that is ultimately why we will fail.  In general American's have fucked up priorities... the Christian Right maybe more than all the rest.  

Perhaps we need to Assess Success/Failure Differently.

[oped]

Operationally define them for me...

[billisonboard]

May 5, 2020 11:21:32 GMT -5 oped said:

Operationally define them for me...

You made the statement "ultimately why we will fail" so you must already have a definition. Personally I don't.

[Lizard Queen]

A couple observations:

If we could actually totally shutdown at the same time worldwide, this thing would would go away completely within a couple months (I would think, depending upon household size) for lack of new hosts.

Opening things up without any better prevention than we had before this thing hit us, will bring us right back to the starting point--risking millions extra lives because we can't keep up with medical treatment, such that it is.

[hoops902]

May 5, 2020 11:37:10 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

A couple observations:

If we could actually totally shutdown at the same time worldwide, this thing would would go away completely within a couple months (I would think, depending upon household size) for lack of new hosts.

Opening things up without any better prevention than we had before this thing hit us, will bring us right back to the starting point--risking millions extra lives because we can't keep up with medical treatment, such that it is.

I mean probably, but how many people would die due to lack of food, water, electricity, medical care, etc?  Actually "totally" shutting down would be catastrophic if it happened worldwide.