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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 13:11:48 GMT -5
Our gross income was about 60K, but the taxable was only 28K and that was with only one kid (my older son's Dad claims him ever other year). 14K in itemized deductions and 10,950 for 3 exemptions. Not sure where the EIC comes in, but I don't ever want to be poor enough to get it.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 8, 2011 13:13:12 GMT -5
Honestly the numbers in the article are a pretty good argument for a single income family. Once you factor in the 12k of daycare costs, and half the vehicle and tax burden at 6k and 4.5k respectively. One spouse is making 34k and losing 22.5k of it right off the top. The family would probably be better off with that spouse taking a drastic pay cut to go to a part time job while the kids were in school, night shifts while the primary working spouse is home, the other spouse working a part time job and one spouse home completely, or finding some way to make some cash from home.
And that assumes they're each making exactly half of the 68k. If one earns 40k and the other earns 28k or something, it's an even better argument for the lower earning spouse to consider staying home.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 8, 2011 13:25:33 GMT -5
I guess, but honestly somebody with a profession that only makes 30k might be better off doing something else. I'm not saying that money is everything, but people with kids have to make sure they can eat. Maybe that means ditching the low paying job you love for something a bit more lucrative.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 8, 2011 14:26:43 GMT -5
Those numbers are bogus. I am a single and can't make many deductions, and I made a bit less than 67k last year, and I didn't even pay 9k in taxes. A family of 4 would get lots of deductions I don't take, so I don't know where they came up with that.
12k for car insurance? I guess if you're in a super high risk pool. I pay about $100/month for and I'm a young male with a relatively clean driving record....
If you end up paying daycare, it only lasts for a few years, I'm not sure why they include that for everyone. Not to mention many can find alternate arrangements like having a parent take care of the kids. Once they're in school, you don't need to pay lots of money for daycare.
I can see where you'd need 68k or so for a family of 4 in a higher cost of living area, but in most areas of the country (especially the south and midwest) you don't need that much.
The author's certainly have an agenda.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Apr 8, 2011 14:33:10 GMT -5
Not to mention many can find alternate arrangements like having a parent take care of the kids. Now that's what I call bogus. Very few people actually have relatives that are a)willing or b) able to take care of small children. Not to mention the burden you place on people who should actually be enjoying their retirement, etc.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 8, 2011 14:40:00 GMT -5
I always find it amusing when Americans complain about how they are living in poverty. They have no idea what true poverty really is. A family of 4 living on 40k in the U.S would be living like royalty compared to how most live. Keep in mind 1/3 of the world lives on less than $1 a day.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 8, 2011 14:40:26 GMT -5
Once they're in school, you don't need to pay lots of money for daycare.LOL. For the daycares I looked at it is the same price for school kids or kids there for a full 8 hours. There is a drop between infant and toddler, but after that it flat lines. For the afterschool programs the waiting lists are HUGE, what are you going to do for daycare while waiting for a spot to open. I was shocked at how difficult it is to navigate the daycare system. While it isn't rocket science it also isn't like you can call on Tuesday and get a spot on Wendesday. Some places have a waiting list of TWO YEARS and those are the ones that are sliding scale/income based daycares. Even if I had called before we concieved her I still would not have gotten in her by the time she was born. One place just called me three months ago to tell me they had a spot, she is 8 months! Not to mention many can find alternate arrangements like having a parent take care of the kidsThis hinges on a parent/relative being willing and capable to take care of the child. It assumes that your parents/family is going to be accomdating to giving up large chunks of their time so you can save a few bucks. My parents are still young enough that they work for a living, they are not going to quit their jobs to provide me with free daycare services. They've also made it very clear that they are done raising children. They are also still trying to boot my 20 year old brother out of the house. The last thing they want is to take care of an infant for 8 hours or more a day. My MIL has had more health problems than we can count. While we'll utilize her for babysitting for date nights there is no way either one of us are comfortable leaving her with the baby for more than a couple hours at the most. I wouldn't trust my brother with a gold fish. Then his siblings are all working for a living too and also have children still in the house. In an emergency I have no doubts that one set of parents or both would step up to help babysit. Beyond that though they made it clear that figuring out daycare was OUR responsibility. They are done raising kids and don't want us showing up looking for free daily babysitting.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 14:40:49 GMT -5
Those numbers are bogus. I am a single and can't make many deductions, and I made a bit less than 67k last year, and I didn't even pay 9k in taxes. A family of 4 would get lots of deductions I don't take, so I don't know where they came up with that. I find that really surprising. Gross: 67,000 1 exemption: -3650 Standard deduction: -5700 Taxable income: 57650 Tax liability before credits: 10,500 If you didn't have anything special going on I would think you got the making work pay credit: -400 tax liability: 10,100 Now this is probably high, because you probably have deductions for things like SL or you have pretax 401k savings. However add FICA (5,100) to that and I don't see how you stay below 9K.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 14:50:18 GMT -5
For the afterschool programs the waiting lists are HUGE, what are you going to do for daycare while waiting for a spot to open.
I've never had an issue with getting after school care here. There are no waiting lists you just sign up and sign them out when you pick them up. Every grade school provides it to through grade 5. If anything there has been a few times when they've threatened to not have it open due to low enrollment. Next year he's probably just going to take the bus home and that expense will be gone entirely.
I don't know why everybody always knocks us in the small towns. Living in the city seems stressful and expensive.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Apr 8, 2011 14:55:48 GMT -5
Those numbers are bogus. I am a single and can't make many deductions, and I made a bit less than 67k last year, and I didn't even pay 9k in taxes. A family of 4 would get lots of deductions I don't take, so I don't know where they came up with that. 12k for car insurance? I guess if you're in a super high risk pool. I pay about $100/month for and I'm a young male with a relatively clean driving record.... If you end up paying daycare, it only lasts for a few years, I'm not sure why they include that for everyone. Not to mention many can find alternate arrangements like having a parent take care of the kids. Once they're in school, you don't need to pay lots of money for daycare. I can see where you'd need 68k or so for a family of 4 in a higher cost of living area, but in most areas of the country (especially the south and midwest) you don't need that much. The author's certainly have an agenda. Spoken like someone who hasn't tried to raise a family of 4 yet, or who doesn't own a house.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 8, 2011 14:57:51 GMT -5
::Knock on wood:: If DH and I stay on around the same schedules clear till DD is in school we wouldn't have to worry about daycare anymore because I could drop her off and he could pick her up.
But I am not counting on it. I also plan on keeping her in the same daycare she is in right now which charges the same regardless if she is only there for school and afterschool. I think it drops about $45 when she becomes a toddler and then it plateus.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 8, 2011 14:58:20 GMT -5
This message has been deleted.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 15:00:54 GMT -5
Just bought a 2005 Honda Odyssey EXL with 74K miles last month (for cash) for 14K. Tax, title and license were $1100. How long did it take you to save that 14k? Because you do have an annual cost per car. Whether you expense it by saving for it or by making payments you are still paying for the car. Where I live they charge you for full day kindergarten in public schools, much less after school care. My friend used to pay $130 a week in after school care for a 10 year old.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 8, 2011 15:02:24 GMT -5
Where I live they charge you for full day kindergarten in public schools, much less after school care
No charge for kindergarten here yet, but they do charge tuition for pre-school now. I just went ahead and found a daycare that is also a pre-school rather than having to price out yet another place in 3-4 years.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 15:02:38 GMT -5
pooks - no one includes fica taxes. Jeez. Federal is the only one that counts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 15:04:17 GMT -5
I think we can quibble all we want about whether something should cost more or less - every family spends differently in the same categories. I agree that 67k or whatever is probably the minimum that a family can comfortably live on and save unless they are super frugal or live in a ridiculously cheap place.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Apr 8, 2011 15:05:44 GMT -5
I don't know why everybody always knocks us in the small towns. Living in the city seems stressful and expensive. I actually wouldn't call your town a small town. Living in a city is expensive. But, I don't consider it stressful. I would actually find living in a small town to be very stressful.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 8, 2011 15:11:20 GMT -5
I started my professional career 13 years ago with a really winner of 25k with no benefits at all, working 9-12/day. Exactly my point though, you were making 25k 13 years ago!! Tack inflation on to that wage, and somebody making 30k right now is way low on the wage scale for a professional type job.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Apr 8, 2011 15:12:19 GMT -5
Fortunately my kid is old enough to not need daycare. But I know what my sister, brother and BFF all pay. This is in MN (not in the Twin Cities Metro area)
DSis- two kids, one school aged, one not = $760 per month DBros- two kids both in daycare all day = $1,120 per month BFF- one kid part time daycare and preschool = $460.00
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 15:13:39 GMT -5
Just bought a 2005 Honda Odyssey EXL with 74K miles last month (for cash) for 14K. Tax, title and license were $1100. How long did it take you to save that 14k? Because you do have an annual cost per car. Whether you expense it by saving for it or by making payments you are still paying for the car. Where I live they charge you for full day kindergarten in public schools, much less after school care. My friend used to pay $130 a week in after school care for a 10 year old. I still don't view paying for a car out of savings as the same as having a car payment. Someone with a $300/month car payment is tied to it. If there's a job loss or things are tight for a few months it's going to hurt having to pay that. If you have money saved up (above and beyond your emergency savings) whether you blow it on a car or a boat or a new deck on your house isn't really hurting you as far as cash flow. We put $300 a month into a car replacement fund, but whenever we need a vehicle we only get what's in there. Last year, DH totaled his car and there was only $3400 in the account, so we bought a 2000 Prizm with 80K miles. This year he hit a deer (yeah, take his keys away), and we happened to have 15K, (insurance settlement and tax return) so that's all we spent. Hopefully we're set for awhile. Before last year we hadn't had to replace a car for 13 years.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Apr 8, 2011 15:26:55 GMT -5
And...what? You're making my point. You bought a five year old, high mileage vehicle (average is 12K a year- 60K miles). That's why I picked 50K miles (or less). You're 14K miles over an average mileage vehicle, and 24K miles over my minimum standard. Actually, it's 6 years old and has many years left in it. We didn't need to spend 20K to get what we wanted/needed in a vehicle. $14K is a lot of money for a 6 year old Odyssey, but I believe you that that's the going rate. It is just too much imo, I'd rather buy a new one in that case.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Apr 8, 2011 15:29:17 GMT -5
Just bought a 2005 Honda Odyssey EXL with 74K miles last month (for cash) for 14K. Tax, title and license were $1100. How long did it take you to save that 14k? Because you do have an annual cost per car. Whether you expense it by saving for it or by making payments you are still paying for the car. Where I live they charge you for full day kindergarten in public schools, much less after school care. My friend used to pay $130 a week in after school care for a 10 year old. I still don't view paying for a car out of savings as the same as having a car payment. Someone with a $300/month car payment is tied to it. If there's a job loss or things are tight for a few months it's going to hurt having to pay that. If you have money saved up (above and beyond your emergency savings) whether you blow it on a car or a boat or a new deck on your house isn't really hurting you as far as cash flow. We put $300 a month into a car replacement fund, but whenever we need a vehicle we only get what's in there. Last year, DH totaled his car and there was only $3400 in the account, so we bought a 2000 Prizm with 80K miles. This year he hit a deer (yeah, take his keys away), and we happened to have 15K, (insurance settlement and tax return) so that's all we spent. Hopefully we're set for awhile. Before last year we hadn't had to replace a car for 13 years. You still pay for it, monthly payment or not.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 15:33:04 GMT -5
Actually, it's 6 years old and has many years left in it. We didn't need to spend 20K to get what we wanted/needed in a vehicle. $14K is a lot of money for a 6 year old Odyssey, but I believe you that that's the going rate. It is just too much imo, I'd rather buy a new one in that case. I think it's a lot too! But, that's less than half what it's price was new and I don't need it to last me 15 years. By the time number one son is driving I want OUT of a mini-van and back in a truck!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2011 15:38:35 GMT -5
You still pay for it, monthly payment or not.
True, but I don't consider anything above a 5K vehicle as "necessary" for a transportation expense. Nothing wrong with spending 40K on a car if that's what you want, but assuming people have to have a $500/month car payment or car replacement fund...eh...I think that's stretching it.
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Post by dragonfly7 on Apr 8, 2011 15:50:12 GMT -5
Regarding the price and availability of after school care: Do teenagers not babysit anymore?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 8, 2011 15:54:24 GMT -5
You would trust your children to some random teenager??? I mean, the horror of it. They should be in a center with people who've studied early childhood education. Do you have any idea how much learning your 4 month old is missing out on if she's being watched by Sally down the street instead of the $2k a month uber pre-pre-preschool?? Do you? I mean, you might as well just start teaching her to work a register at McDonalds already.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 8, 2011 16:02:36 GMT -5
Oh well, add paying $630 a month for daycare instead of paying a teenager to the list of the reasons why YM thinks I am a shitty parent. ;D
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 8, 2011 16:06:08 GMT -5
We only need outside daycare 1-2 days a week, and have a friend watch him when he isn't with grandparents. The 'issue' is managing time that the babysitter/family can't watch the kid. It works for us since we have such limited daycare needs, and my job is flexible.
But I don't know how likely you'd be to find a teenager to watch jr. M-F 7:30-5:30 year round.
School aged kids I could see this more, when you only need someone for a couple hours to cover the gap till parents get home.
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Post by dragonfly7 on Apr 8, 2011 16:10:32 GMT -5
Seriously, though (and I was specifically thinking of school age children needing someone after school or over the summer) - I know more and more middle and high schoolers are involved in extracurriculars and can't babysit, but since the types of McJobs I held in high school are also in short supply, I thought there would be more teenagers available to care for siblings or neighborhood children.
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doxieluvr
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Post by doxieluvr on Apr 8, 2011 20:29:07 GMT -5
I had to re-read it 3 times but $12K/yr on car insurance and car payments - are you kidding me? ? Lena With fuel, insurance, and car payments we pay $17k a year for cars. $70k is very low for a family of 4. We live broke week to week. Our housing on a small townhouse is $15,600 a year (include insurance & property taxes). Daycare for our two kids would be $10k a year if my parents did not provide free daycare.
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