$68k ìs the minimum income for a family of 4?

[Deleted]

I bought a 7K car and have driven it for 15 years.

[Cookies Galore]

BF and I have a combined income of a little under $64,000. We're comfortable and not living the high life, but I certainly wouldn't add one kid into the mix, let alone two!

[Wisconsin Beth]

We paid about $14K for our 2006 minivan in 2009. If we knew then what we know now, we'd have probably spent more on a different/better minivan. And yes, I know that not all 2 kids families drive minivans. Our 2nd car is a sedan.

[schildi]

Apr 8, 2011 10:43:40 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

I had to re-read it 3 times but $12K/yr on car insurance and car payments - are you kidding me??

Lena

I did not read the article, but $12K as total annual cost for two vehicles sounds pretty reasonable to me. I don't think people realize how much driving really costs. If it's insurance and payments only, then it's high, but I doubt that's the case.

[whoisjohngalt]

OK guys. again, the article said "insurance and car pmt" for $12K. You are all including all kinds of other costs, so it's not apples to apples

Lena

[whoisjohngalt]

And btw, even if I included ALL car costs (except depreciation) we were still at a little less than $6K. All gas, repairs, registration and inspection, insurance costs for 3 cars.

So, to ME, $12K is huge

Lena

[Angel!]

Apr 8, 2011 11:26:28 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

OK guys. again, the article said "insurance and car pmt" for $12K. You are all including all kinds of other costs, so it's not apples to apples

Lena

Yeah, that is what the article said. But, the article was based on this study
www.wowonline.org/documents/BESTIndexforTheUnitedStates2010.pdf
And if you read it:

Transportation costs for drivers include fuel, maintenance costs, insurance, finance charges (not down payment or purchase osts), license and registration fees and depreciation (the largest ost of car ownership).

[Deleted]

so you're paying no taxes and getting earned income credit back? So......those making more than you are taxed to give it to you. I don't see how you can come here with the holier than thou attitude about it.

Hardly "holier than thou". Just saying that a family of four on that income probably isn't paying much in taxes. There's nothing I do that's any different. It's not like I'm robbing the IRS. This is how it works out.

(and I don't get the earned income credit either)

[Deleted]

And 130/week for infant care? That is extremely low, so you probably live in a very low cost area.....some don't!

Exactly why I stated in my FIRST post that it would depend on where you live and that those in a LCOL area could be just fine on that.

[Angel!]

Apr 8, 2011 12:04:26 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

And 130/week for infant care? That is extremely low, so you probably live in a very low cost area.....some don't!

Exactly why I stated in my FIRST post that it would depend on where you live and that those in a LCOL area could be just fine on that.

Not to nitpick, but what you actually said is those numbers might be true in HCOL areas. The fact is that the daycare is fairly accurate even for a LCOL. I am low to medium COL, the house next door to me just sold for 100K, & I pay 25% higher than is estimated in the article for daycare.

The fact is your daycare is well below average even for most LCOL areas. 12K for 2 kids in daycare is not a HCOL cost, it is actually pretty LCOL.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 8, 2011 11:14:04 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

A family of 4 making 68K probably shouldn't be driving a 17K car. There's plenty of reliable transportation to be had for way cheaper than that.

Plus you can't stop making your car payment on the tough months, but a car replacement fund can be put on hold during those times.

If you place no value on safety, your options really open up. However, if you do value safety- a 5 year old minivan in good condition with low mileage (50,000 or less) with a decent warranty would start around $20K.

Go shopping for a car - and I'm not talking about four wheels and a seat with a Briggs & Stratton engine- sometime. It's an enlightening experience.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Back in Naperville, daycare-- if you have no standards whatsoever- started around $250 a week...per child.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Did anyone include taxes for the car? Nevermind sales taxes- which even if you bought that mythical $17K perfectly safe for two adults and two children car, in IL would be $1,700 dollars; then just for the tags and not counting city stickers it's another $180 a year.

[Deleted]

The fact is your daycare is well below average even for most LCOL areas

This is the averages for every county in the state of MN. We're in Winona. At $100/week for the infant, pretty much on the mark.

www.c2r2.org/images/uploads/FCC%20Rates%20by%20County%202009.pdf

[swamp]

Apr 8, 2011 12:23:00 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Did anyone include taxes for the car? Nevermind sales taxes- which even if you bought that mythical $17K perfectly safe for two adults and two children car, in IL would be $1,700 dollars; then just for the tags and not counting city stickers it's another $180 a year.

What are car taxes? How are they computed? NY, the taxiest place on earth, doesn't have that. Please keep quiet about it and don't give them any more ideas.

[Deleted]

Apr 8, 2011 12:19:39 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Apr 8, 2011 11:14:04 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

A family of 4 making 68K probably shouldn't be driving a 17K car. There's plenty of reliable transportation to be had for way cheaper than that.

Plus you can't stop making your car payment on the tough months, but a car replacement fund can be put on hold during those times.

If you place no value on safety, your options really open up. However, if you do value safety- a 5 year old minivan in good condition with low mileage (50,000 or less) with a decent warranty would start around $20K.

Go shopping for a car - and I'm not talking about four wheels and a seat with a Briggs & Stratton engine- sometime. It's an enlightening experience.

Just bought a 2005 Honda Odyssey EXL with 74K miles last month (for cash) for 14K. Tax, title and license were $1100.

[swamp]

Apr 8, 2011 12:27:37 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

The fact is your daycare is well below average even for most LCOL areas

This is the averages for every county in the state of MN. We're in Winona. At $100/week for the infant, pretty much on the mark.

www.c2r2.org/images/uploads/FCC%20Rates%20by%20County%202009.pdf

Wow, I thought I lived in a LCOL area. I pay $125 a week in daycare for one child, $200 for when school is out and I need daycare for 2.

[hoops902]

Apr 8, 2011 12:27:37 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

The fact is your daycare is well below average even for most LCOL areas

This is the averages for every county in the state of MN. We're in Winona. At $100/week for the infant, pretty much on the mark.

www.c2r2.org/images/uploads/FCC%20Rates%20by%20County%202009.pdf

Since I actually read that link I'll point out that it's not every county in Minnesota, in fact it's specifically some of the lowest cost of living counties in Minnesota and not only is the average not $100/week/infant, there is not one county that has an average of $100 or below (there are many close, but it's certainly not the average in every county, and in fact not the average in any county)

[Deleted]

BTW, another engineer just gave his notice here today. We're short three now. Starting salary is probably about 60K a year if anyone is interested in living in an affordable area. LOL

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Apr 8, 2011 12:30:37 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Apr 8, 2011 12:19:39 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

If you place no value on safety, your options really open up. However, if you do value safety- a 5 year old minivan in good condition with low mileage (50,000 or less) with a decent warranty would start around $20K.

Go shopping for a car - and I'm not talking about four wheels and a seat with a Briggs & Stratton engine- sometime. It's an enlightening experience.

Just bought a 2005 Honda Odyssey EXL with 74K miles last month (for cash) for 14K. Tax, title and license were $1100.

And...what? You're making my point. You bought a five year old, high mileage vehicle (average is 12K a year- 60K miles). That's why I picked 50K miles (or less). You're 14K miles over an average mileage vehicle, and 24K miles over my minimum standard.

[hoops902]

Apr 8, 2011 12:39:54 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Apr 8, 2011 12:30:37 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Just bought a 2005 Honda Odyssey EXL with 74K miles last month (for cash) for 14K. Tax, title and license were $1100.

And...what? You're making my point. You bought a five year old, high mileage vehicle (average is 12K a year- 60K miles). That's why I picked 50K miles (or less). You're 14K miles over an average mileage vehicle, and 24K miles over my minimum standard.

A 2005 model year is at least 6 years old, not 5. And possibly closer to 7. That puts it quite close to your definition of average yearly mileage.

[Deleted]

Apr 8, 2011 12:39:54 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Apr 8, 2011 12:30:37 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Just bought a 2005 Honda Odyssey EXL with 74K miles last month (for cash) for 14K. Tax, title and license were $1100.

And...what? You're making my point. You bought a five year old, high mileage vehicle (average is 12K a year- 60K miles). That's why I picked 50K miles (or less). You're 14K miles over an average mileage vehicle, and 24K miles over my minimum standard.

Actually, it's 6 years old and has many years left in it. We didn't need to spend 20K to get what we wanted/needed in a vehicle.

[Angel!]

Apr 8, 2011 12:27:37 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

The fact is your daycare is well below average even for most LCOL areas

This is the averages for every county in the state of MN. We're in Winona. At $100/week for the infant, pretty much on the mark.

www.c2r2.org/images/uploads/FCC%20Rates%20by%20County%202009.pdf

Ok, you take the averages on that page & you get:
Infant - $124
Toddler - $119
Preschool - $116
S/A - $111

Take any 2 categories for 2 children & multiply it by 52 wks & you get between $11,800 & $12,900. So, the article is right on the mark saying 12K a year for your area. Unfortunately MN seems to be lower than much of the rest of the country where we are stuck paying $150-$250/wk/kid

[Sum Dum Gai]

That tax number seems high. Wouldn't a two income family with two kids in that income range qualify for EITC and full child tax credits? Throw in their standard deduction, and they shouldn't be paying too much in federal income tax. State taxes will obviously vary, so I assume they'd just use an average for that, but the $9k tax number on that salary for a family of four seemed high to me. Maybe they're including sales and property tax in that too, which might push it that high.

The car expenses are nuts though. I'd have to think most people in that situation would find a way to cut those down.

[Deleted]

Apr 8, 2011 12:36:45 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Apr 8, 2011 12:27:37 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

The fact is your daycare is well below average even for most LCOL areas

This is the averages for every county in the state of MN. We're in Winona. At $100/week for the infant, pretty much on the mark.

www.c2r2.org/images/uploads/FCC%20Rates%20by%20County%202009.pdf

Since I actually read that link I'll point out that it's not every county in Minnesota, in fact it's specifically some of the lowest cost of living counties in Minnesota and not only is the average not $100/week/infant, there is not one county that has an average of $100 or below (there are many close, but it's certainly not the average in every county, and in fact not the average in any county)

Sorry, assumed it was all because it was on the states child care assistance website. But still, that's a lot of people living on those areas and they're not all complete hick counties with no places to work. This is also for in home child care, not centers, which are more expensive.

[Sum Dum Gai]

But still, that's a lot of people living on those areas and they're not all complete hick counties with no places to work.

They're in Minnesota right?

[Deleted]

Apr 8, 2011 12:47:48 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Apr 8, 2011 12:27:37 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

The fact is your daycare is well below average even for most LCOL areas

This is the averages for every county in the state of MN. We're in Winona. At $100/week for the infant, pretty much on the mark.

www.c2r2.org/images/uploads/FCC%20Rates%20by%20County%202009.pdf

Ok, you take the averages on that page & you get:
Infant - $124
Toddler - $119
Preschool - $116
S/A - $111

Take any 2 categories for 2 children & multiply it by 52 wks & you get between $11,800 & $12,900. So, the article is right on the mark saying 12K a year for your area. Unfortunately MN seems to be lower than much of the rest of the country where we are stuck paying $150-$250/wk/kid

I don't get the school age one though. Everyone I know with kids in school hardly have any childcare expenses outside of the summer. There are after school care programs and the YMCA that are only a fraction of that cost. The Y is $125/month and the school is $3/hour maxing out at $160.

[Deleted]

Apr 8, 2011 12:57:05 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

But still, that's a lot of people living on those areas and they're not all complete hick counties with no places to work.

They're in Minnesota right?

Yeah, like Mayo Clinic. Smack dab in the middle of Olmstead County where the janitors make $15/hour and have the best free healthcare around!

[Angel!]

Wouldn't a two income family with two kids in that income range qualify for EITC and full child tax credits? Throw in their standard deduction, and they shouldn't be paying too much in federal income tax.

No, they likely wouldn't get EITC. I was 56K this year pre-tax & would have ended up paying ~$200 in federal tax, except for the making work pay credit, & didn't qualify for EITC. They would likely pay 1-2K unless they had some some significant itemized deductions. Add $5k in FICA & another $1-2K for state & you're close to $9K.

[Angel!]

Apr 8, 2011 12:57:24 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Apr 8, 2011 12:47:48 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Ok, you take the averages on that page & you get:
Infant - $124
Toddler - $119
Preschool - $116
S/A - $111

Take any 2 categories for 2 children & multiply it by 52 wks & you get between $11,800 & $12,900. So, the article is right on the mark saying 12K a year for your area. Unfortunately MN seems to be lower than much of the rest of the country where we are stuck paying $150-$250/wk/kid

I don't get the school age one though. Everyone I know with kids in school hardly have any childcare expenses outside of the summer. There are after school care programs and the YMCA that are only a fraction of that cost. The Y is $125/month and the school is $3/hour maxing out at $160.

It is wierd that infant & school-age are so close together in price. Here there are large drops as you move through the categories.