weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 9, 2019 16:56:50 GMT -5
...and many Americans go overseas for healthcare. What's your point? It sounds like they have money, with private prep schools, etc. What's life like when you're NOT rich? I'm not bitter about America. I'm just really tired of hearing how you"re #1 and best at absolutely everything, when clearly, you're not. "eta. I have a Canadian born sister-in-law living in the US for many years, extended family still in Canada. They constantly complain how crappy the government run health care is, and through the years members of the extended family have come to the US for surgeries, testing and pay out of pocket. "
You said she was Canadian-born. You neglected to mention where she's actually from. My daughter in law is from one of the Asian countries, my sister in law is from Canada, two different people. It sounds like they have money, with private prep schools, etc. What's life like when you're NOT rich? It's not about being rich in their cases, it's more about putting a priority on education, making sacrifices and saving towards a goal. While I don't know anyone who has traveled outside the US for healthcare, yes I know there are Americans that do seek some operations etc in other countries.2017, an estimated 1.4 million patients traveled outside the U.S. for care, according to Josef Woodman — author of Patients Beyond Borders and CEO of the Patients Beyond Borders company. That’s almost 10 times more than the 2008 estimate published in Time magazine. www.salon.com/2018/03/05/americans-still-have-to-go-abroad-to-get-affordable-health-care/1.4 million isn't small potatoes. Why do you suppose they go there? In other first world countries, they don't have to save up and make sacrifices. A top-notch university education is subsidized, and you don't have to mortgage your house to send your kids to school. A good education should be equally available to every child, regardless if you're living paycheck to paycheck, scrimping and making sacrifices, or are wealthy.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 9, 2019 17:14:30 GMT -5
A child's untapped potential shouldn't be snuffed out because the child's parents are either unable or unwilling to make make sacrifices.
But, I get it. You're a Republican, and their mantra is "every man for himself! Screw everybody else! Everything else is communism!"
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 9, 2019 17:16:48 GMT -5
My daughter in law is from one of the Asian countries, my sister in law is from Canada, two different people. It sounds like they have money, with private prep schools, etc. What's life like when you're NOT rich? It's not about being rich in their cases, it's more about putting a priority on education, making sacrifices and saving towards a goal. While I don't know anyone who has traveled outside the US for healthcare, yes I know there are Americans that do seek some operations etc in other countries.2017, an estimated 1.4 million patients traveled outside the U.S. for care, according to Josef Woodman — author of Patients Beyond Borders and CEO of the Patients Beyond Borders company. That’s almost 10 times more than the 2008 estimate published in Time magazine. www.salon.com/2018/03/05/americans-still-have-to-go-abroad-to-get-affordable-health-care/1.4 million isn't small potatoes. Why do you suppose they go there? In other first world countries, they don't have to save up and make sacrifices. A top-notch university education is subsidized, and you don't have to mortgage your house to send your kids to school. A good education should be equally available to every child, regardless if you're living paycheck to paycheck, scrimping and making sacrifices, or are wealthy. this is quoted from your link, Slate article... Re IVF The same procedure in the U.S. would have cost the Rustads between $12,000 and $15,000, according to a CNBC report that highlighted IVF’s low success rate (about 29 percent) and its high price tag. What’s worse, even though one in 60 U.S. babies is born from an IVF procedure, the fertility treatment isn’t covered by most American insurance plans.The same thing happens in Canada with IVF, Correct? this quote from your post #88. Different provinces tax their citizens differently. You want a sex change operation? Move to Quebec and pay Quebec taxes, which are higher.That being said, if you get sick, you're covered. Everywhere.Things like IVF and sex change operations are "extras", and dependent on where you live.
In Canada it depends on what province you live in and what taxable income rate you pay, if you want extra's like IVF. In the US, IVF isn't covered by most insurance plans, same thing you have to pay more for a policy that covers it.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 9, 2019 17:23:28 GMT -5
2017, an estimated 1.4 million patients traveled outside the U.S. for care, according to Josef Woodman — author of Patients Beyond Borders and CEO of the Patients Beyond Borders company. That’s almost 10 times more than the 2008 estimate published in Time magazine. www.salon.com/2018/03/05/americans-still-have-to-go-abroad-to-get-affordable-health-care/1.4 million isn't small potatoes. Why do you suppose they go there? In other first world countries, they don't have to save up and make sacrifices. A top-notch university education is subsidized, and you don't have to mortgage your house to send your kids to school. A good education should be equally available to every child, regardless if you're living paycheck to paycheck, scrimping and making sacrifices, or are wealthy. this is quoted from your link, Slate article... Re IVF The same procedure in the U.S. would have cost the Rustads between $12,000 and $15,000, according to a CNBC report that highlighted IVF’s low success rate (about 29 percent) and its high price tag. What’s worse, even though one in 60 U.S. babies is born from an IVF procedure, the fertility treatment isn’t covered by most American insurance plans.The same thing happens in Canada with IVF, Correct? this quote from your post #88. Different provinces tax their citizens differently. You want a sex change operation? Move to Quebec and pay Quebec taxes, which are higher.That being said, if you get sick, you're covered. Everywhere.Things like IVF and sex change operations are "extras", and dependent on where you live.
In Canada it depends on what province you live in and what taxable income rate you pay, if you want extra's like IVF. In the US, IVF isn't covered by most insurance plans, same thing you have to pay more for a policy that covers it. You DO realize that many Americans go overseas for things like heart surgery, correct? foreignpolicy.com/2018/01/02/indias-hospitals-are-filling-up-with-desperate-americans/Funny how you glommed on to IVF. Some provinces can afford it, and some can't. Some will do unlimited, and others will only offer it once, as it's insanely expensive and often fails. It's not a matter of life and death. If you're SICK, every province will take care of you.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 9, 2019 17:24:46 GMT -5
I DO know several people who go to Mexico for healthcare. They are happy with the care and can simply pay out of pocket. My half sister flew to Germany a couple of years ago for a complicated neck surgery. Her ins would not cover it (“experimental” ) and she did not have the $30k to pay for it. It isn’t considered “experimental” in Germany. She was happy with the care and is very happy with the results The cost was a third of what it would have been here <iframe width="25.75999999999999" height="4.52000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 25.75999999999999px; height: 4.52000000000001px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_25294988" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="25.75999999999999" height="4.52000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 25.76px; height: 4.52px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1226px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_66583926" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="25.75999999999999" height="4.52000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 25.76px; height: 4.52px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 165px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_50724094" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="25.75999999999999" height="4.52000000000001" style="position: absolute; width: 25.76px; height: 4.52px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1226px; top: 165px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_29627065" scrolling="no"></iframe> The experimental surgeries is where I have heard people will travel to other countries. If it was considered experimental in the US, it would likely not have been covered by single payer plan or a US insurance policy? I have heard of some people traveling out of the country for a surgery or a procedure, because it's less costly than their insurance deductible.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 9, 2019 17:30:13 GMT -5
Nataline Sarkisyan was diagnosed with leukemia at age 14. The disease had gone into remission, but following a relapse and a subsequent bone-marrow transplant, her liver failed due to a blood-clotting complication. She died at 17, mere hours after her insurance company, Cigna, announced that it would cover a liver transplant, which it had previously rejected as being "experimental, investigational, and unproven." www.cbsnews.com/pictures/health-insurance-horror-stories/3/She died.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 9, 2019 17:33:06 GMT -5
this is quoted from your link, Slate article... Re IVF The same procedure in the U.S. would have cost the Rustads between $12,000 and $15,000, according to a CNBC report that highlighted IVF’s low success rate (about 29 percent) and its high price tag. What’s worse, even though one in 60 U.S. babies is born from an IVF procedure, the fertility treatment isn’t covered by most American insurance plans.The same thing happens in Canada with IVF, Correct? this quote from your post #88. Different provinces tax their citizens differently. You want a sex change operation? Move to Quebec and pay Quebec taxes, which are higher.That being said, if you get sick, you're covered. Everywhere.Things like IVF and sex change operations are "extras", and dependent on where you live.
In Canada it depends on what province you live in and what taxable income rate you pay, if you want extra's like IVF. In the US, IVF isn't covered by most insurance plans, same thing you have to pay more for a policy that covers it. You DO realize that many Americans go overseas for things like heart surgery, correct? foreignpolicy.com/2018/01/02/indias-hospitals-are-filling-up-with-desperate-americans/Funny how you glommed on to IVF. Some provinces can afford it, and some can't. Some will do unlimited, and others will only offer it once, as it's insanely expensive and often fails. It's not a matter of life and death. If you're SICK, every province will take care of you. lol... I glommed onto the IVF because it was one of the procedures that was in common with a post of yours and the article to compare. I have not heard of a US insurance policy not cover an emergency heart surgery, deemed medical necessary and to save a life or improve your health.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 9, 2019 17:33:38 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 9, 2019 17:37:40 GMT -5
You DO realize that many Americans go overseas for things like heart surgery, correct? foreignpolicy.com/2018/01/02/indias-hospitals-are-filling-up-with-desperate-americans/Funny how you glommed on to IVF. Some provinces can afford it, and some can't. Some will do unlimited, and others will only offer it once, as it's insanely expensive and often fails. It's not a matter of life and death. If you're SICK, every province will take care of you. lol... I glommed onto the IVF because it was one of the procedures that was in common with a post of yours and the article to compare. I have not heard of a US insurance policy not cover an emergency heart surgery, deemed medical necessary and to save a life or improve your health. It would help if you read the links. Konczak had a blood infection and spent the next month receiving intravenous antibiotics, but his misfortune didn’t stop there. A doctor discovered that he had a heart murmur and would need surgery to replace his mitral valve. He called the nearby Cleveland Clinic to inquire about costs. The quote? A whopping $130,000, not including the surgeon’s fees. Konczak says his insurance had been abruptly terminated when he turned 50 and he could not afford a replacement. When he heard the procedure price, he was shocked.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Mar 9, 2019 17:49:02 GMT -5
Son and his wife had their son by IVF in S Korea. It costs them very little and they paid what the government didn't cover. A few thousand dollars, yes as American citizens they lived there so long they were covered under their health insurance. He said here they could not have afforded it.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 9, 2019 17:52:09 GMT -5
A child's untapped potential shouldn't be snuffed out because the child's parents are either unable or unwilling to make make sacrifices. But, I get it. You're a Republican, and their mantra is "every man for himself! Screw everybody else! Everything else is communism!" all American children have access to public school education, K-12. I pay property taxes in the highest taxed county, half of which is collected is for public schools, that my son did not attend. I'm still paying those high taxes and don't have children in school and will be for many years to come. The private education my son received was paid 100% by his father and I. The tuition was padded as well to fund the financial aid department for those who could not afford full tuition. The only requirement is that a student had to test into the school academically, it had nothing to do with affordability for the family. Any fundraisers done by the school, was to raise money for financial aid students. I volunteered for those fundraisers for several years while my son attended, its part of being an evil Republican/Conservative I guess. Every year since my son graduated from that school I have made an annual donation to the financial aid department, that is how much I believe in the school.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Mar 9, 2019 17:56:24 GMT -5
A child's untapped potential shouldn't be snuffed out because the child's parents are either unable or unwilling to make make sacrifices. But, I get it. You're a Republican, and their mantra is "every man for himself! Screw everybody else! Everything else is communism!" all American children have access to public school education, K-12. I pay property taxes in the highest taxed county, half of which is collected is for public schools, that my son did not attend. I'm still paying those high taxes and don't have children in school and will be for many years to come. The private education my son received was paid 100% by his father and I. The tuition was padded as well to fund the financial aid department for those who could not afford full tuition. The only requirement is that a student had to test into the school academically, it had nothing to do with affordability for the family. Any fundraisers done by the school, was to raise money for financial aid students. I volunteered for those fundraisers for several years while my son attended, its part of being an evil Republican/Conservative I guess. Every year since my son graduated from that school I have made an annual donation to the financial aid department, that is how much I believe in the school. Proving Welch's point. "Screw public schools"
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 9, 2019 18:05:49 GMT -5
A child's untapped potential shouldn't be snuffed out because the child's parents are either unable or unwilling to make make sacrifices. But, I get it. You're a Republican, and their mantra is "every man for himself! Screw everybody else! Everything else is communism!" all American children have access to public school education, K-12. I pay property taxes in the highest taxed county, half of which is collected is for public schools, that my son did not attend. I'm still paying those high taxes and don't have children in school and will be for many years to come. The private education my son received was paid 100% by his father and I. The tuition was padded as well to fund the financial aid department for those who could not afford full tuition. The only requirement is that a student had to test into the school academically, it had nothing to do with affordability for the family. Any fundraisers done by the school, was to raise money for financial aid students. I volunteered for those fundraisers for several years while my son attended, its part of being an evil Republican/Conservative I guess. Every year since my son graduated from that school I have made an annual donation to the financial aid department, that is how much I believe in the school. So why is DIL's child going to a fancy private prep school? Because your public education sucks? All you have to do is look at the PISA scores.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 9, 2019 18:09:28 GMT -5
all American children have access to public school education, K-12. I pay property taxes in the highest taxed county, half of which is collected is for public schools, that my son did not attend. I'm still paying those high taxes and don't have children in school and will be for many years to come. The private education my son received was paid 100% by his father and I. The tuition was padded as well to fund the financial aid department for those who could not afford full tuition. The only requirement is that a student had to test into the school academically, it had nothing to do with affordability for the family. Any fundraisers done by the school, was to raise money for financial aid students. I volunteered for those fundraisers for several years while my son attended, its part of being an evil Republican/Conservative I guess. Every year since my son graduated from that school I have made an annual donation to the financial aid department, that is how much I believe in the school. Proving Welch's point. "Screw public schools" actually, that is the way I feel about government run anything! And how am I screwing public schools? I live in the highest property taxed area of the state, half of what is collected is for running the public schools that I never took advantage of a public education for dear son. I participated in funding the local schools as required by county and state laws.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 9, 2019 18:22:54 GMT -5
all American children have access to public school education, K-12. I pay property taxes in the highest taxed county, half of which is collected is for public schools, that my son did not attend. I'm still paying those high taxes and don't have children in school and will be for many years to come. The private education my son received was paid 100% by his father and I. The tuition was padded as well to fund the financial aid department for those who could not afford full tuition. The only requirement is that a student had to test into the school academically, it had nothing to do with affordability for the family. Any fundraisers done by the school, was to raise money for financial aid students. I volunteered for those fundraisers for several years while my son attended, its part of being an evil Republican/Conservative I guess. Every year since my son graduated from that school I have made an annual donation to the financial aid department, that is how much I believe in the school. So why is DIL's child going to a fancy private prep school? Because your public education sucks? All you have to do is look at the PISA scores. DIL's child, my grand child, isn't even in school yet (less than one year old). It's a great school, of course I hope the grand child tests into the school academically when the time comes, and is able to keep up with the curriculum through the years. If not, the public school district for my county/state is good. My son and DIL live in the same county and state as I, so they pay the high property taxes as well, and will not be using any public school funds for their kiddo. What's the problem?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 9, 2019 18:34:11 GMT -5
So why is DIL's child going to a fancy private prep school? Because your public education sucks? All you have to do is look at the PISA scores. DIL's child, my grand child, isn't even in school yet (less than one year old). It's a great school, of course I hope the grand child tests into the school academically when the time comes, and is able to keep up with the curriculum through the years. If not, the public school district for my county/state is good. My son and DIL live in the same county and state as I, so they pay the high property taxes as well, and will not be using any public school funds for their kiddo. What's the problem? You're the one who posted about having that kid in a private prep school. Right here. "My DIL's child, my grandchild, is not even a year old. Furthermore, my dear grand child will attend the same private college prep school my son attended, and will more than likely go on to a private university for higher education, just like her mom and dad did."In any case, if the public schools in your district, which you already pay for, are very good, why the private prep school? Because they're not really that good?
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 9, 2019 18:36:02 GMT -5
lol... I glommed onto the IVF because it was one of the procedures that was in common with a post of yours and the article to compare. I have not heard of a US insurance policy not cover an emergency heart surgery, deemed medical necessary and to save a life or improve your health. It would help if you read the links. Konczak had a blood infection and spent the next month receiving intravenous antibiotics, but his misfortune didn’t stop there. A doctor discovered that he had a heart murmur and would need surgery to replace his mitral valve. He called the nearby Cleveland Clinic to inquire about costs. The quote? A whopping $130,000, not including the surgeon’s fees. Konczak says his insurance had been abruptly terminated when he turned 50 and he could not afford a replacement. When he heard the procedure price, he was shocked.Why was the insurance policy terminated, it was in a time period that the ACA was in effect so pre-existing condition wouldn't be the problem.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 9, 2019 18:44:01 GMT -5
It would help if you read the links. Konczak had a blood infection and spent the next month receiving intravenous antibiotics, but his misfortune didn’t stop there. A doctor discovered that he had a heart murmur and would need surgery to replace his mitral valve. He called the nearby Cleveland Clinic to inquire about costs. The quote? A whopping $130,000, not including the surgeon’s fees. Konczak says his insurance had been abruptly terminated when he turned 50 and he could not afford a replacement. When he heard the procedure price, he was shocked.Why was the insurance policy terminated, it was in a time period that the ACA was in effect so pre-existing condition wouldn't be the problem. How should I know? What I do know is that you have too many people who are uninsured, too many people who have pre-existing conditions, and too many people who just can't afford it. When I worked in palliative care there, almost all my patients were kicked off their insurance policies, after their companies went through their files with a fine-toothed comb, looking for any reason to deny, deny, deny.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 9, 2019 18:48:42 GMT -5
DIL's child, my grand child, isn't even in school yet (less than one year old). It's a great school, of course I hope the grand child tests into the school academically when the time comes, and is able to keep up with the curriculum through the years. If not, the public school district for my county/state is good. My son and DIL live in the same county and state as I, so they pay the high property taxes as well, and will not be using any public school funds for their kiddo. What's the problem? You're the one who posted about having that kid in a private prep school. Right here. "My DIL's child, my grandchild, is not even a year old. Furthermore, my dear grand child will attend the same private college prep school my son attended, and will more than likely go on to a private university for higher education, just like her mom and dad did."In any case, if the public schools in your district, which you already pay for, are very good, why the private prep school? Because they're not really that good? I like the smaller class sizes at the private school, 11-1 ratio vs up to 25-1 in public. The private school is more diverse as far as socioeconomic and backgrounds, race and ethnicity, religions, cultural, provides a more rounded education imo.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 9, 2019 18:57:10 GMT -5
Why was the insurance policy terminated, it was in a time period that the ACA was in effect so pre-existing condition wouldn't be the problem. How should I know? What I do know is that you have too many people who are uninsured, too many people who have pre-existing conditions, and too many people who just can't afford it. When I worked in palliative care there, almost all my patients were kicked off their insurance policies, after their companies went through their files with a fine-toothed comb, looking for any reason to deny, deny, deny. The ACA doesn't allow insurance companies to deny for pre-existing conditions, they are covered now by law. How long ago did you work in pallative care? Between Medicare, Medicaid, and gov't subsidized ObamaCare/ACA policies, CHIP for kids, employer provided, there are not that many left without insurance, not enough to destroy a whole system and go to single payer imo.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Mar 9, 2019 20:26:44 GMT -5
How should I know? What I do know is that you have too many people who are uninsured, too many people who have pre-existing conditions, and too many people who just can't afford it. When I worked in palliative care there, almost all my patients were kicked off their insurance policies, after their companies went through their files with a fine-toothed comb, looking for any reason to deny, deny, deny. The ACA doesn't allow insurance companies to deny for pre-existing conditions, they are covered now by law. How long ago did you work in pallative care? Between Medicare, Medicaid, and gov't subsidized ObamaCare/ACA policies, CHIP for kids, employer provided, there are not that many left without insurance, not enough to destroy a whole system and go to single payer imo. You support politicians who want to repeal the ACA in full. Including that provision. You don’t consider 44 million “that many”? About 44 million people in this country have no health insurance, and another 38 million have inadequate health insurance. This means that nearly one-third of Americans face each day without the security of knowing that, if and when they need it, medical care is available to them and their families. www.pbs.org/healthcarecrisis/uninsured.htmlNEARLY ONE THIRD your “not that many”
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 9, 2019 21:56:21 GMT -5
I have not ever heard anything good about socialized medicine/health care, nothing could ever convince me to try that experiment in the US. For the wealthy and well-insured, the US system typically delivers better, faster results. When money is no object and a health issue is time-critical or requires bleeding-edge treatment, people (including most wealthy Canadians) go to the US. There are scattered exceptions, but as a general rule: money talks, and the US is where you want it to do the talking. The tradeoff: for the less-than-wealthy and not-so-well-insured--collectively a very large group--the US system is so perilous, fraught with pitfalls, and generally substandard that (as I said before) your statistical averages wind up worse than for any other OECD nation. You can't beat statistical averages. Even if you pile up 100 anecdotes of Canadians receiving slow, lousy healthcare, this simply means that somewhere in America, 100 Americans received slower, lousier healthcare (which includes possibly receiving no healthcare at all). In the end, the averages reflect the sum of all anecdotes; literally hundreds of millions of them. You only have to answer two questions, therefore: - Which do you value more: a) the ability for sufficiently wealthy and well-insured people to avail themselves of better, faster healthcare, while insufficiently wealthy/well-insured people contend with generally substandard care (in terms of affordability, access, and quality), or b) a better average standard of care accessible to every citizen, regardless of wealth/insurance, that meanwhile divests the wealthy of their wealth and their ability to purchase better, faster healthcare?
Classic individualism (a) versus collectivism (b). As advantages, (a) is generally fairer, more market-responsive, and more incentivizing of hard work, self-care, and good financial planning/management (or rather, it tends to de-incentivize the opposite), (b) is generally more equitable (equality of outcome), more efficient, more secure (fewer major risks and hazards), more merciful, and more conducive to a healthier society overall.
- If you value (b) more, do you reasonably believe Canadian-style healthcare can be administrated sustainably and efficiently in the US, at the scale of some 320 million people under one national government?
If your answer to 1 is (a), you're wasting your breath arguing with Weltz. You have a fundamental difference of values. You're not going to bridge this gap via debate. Your anecdotes, testimonies, personal experiences, etc., while admirably zealous, are worthless. You can't change a person's fundamental values by carpet bombing them with anecdotes and horror stories. Neither you nor Weltz can. Furthermore, you can't change fundamental values using statistics. All the data in the world won't change what people do and don't value.
If your answer to 1 is (b), then you and Weltz are on the same page as to which benefits are of greater value, and you can possibly make headway on question 2, which is of a technical nature, not a values judgment. Based on your commentary, I suspect your answer to 1 is (a), in which case: a wise man would thank her for her candor, agree to disagree, and let the arc die in peace. You've argued your case down to a fundamental difference in values, and that's the end of the road.
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Great
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 5, 2012 14:48:31 GMT -5
Posts: 572
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Post by Great on Mar 10, 2019 9:04:56 GMT -5
I have not ever heard anything good about socialized medicine/health care, nothing could ever convince me to try that experiment in the US. For the wealthy and well-insured, the US system typically delivers better, faster results. When money is no object and a health issue is time-critical or requires bleeding-edge treatment, people (including most wealthy Canadians) go to the US. There are scattered exceptions, but as a general rule: money talks, and the US is where you want it to do the talking. The tradeoff: for the less-than-wealthy and not-so-well-insured--collectively a very large group--the US system is so perilous, fraught with pitfalls, and generally substandard that (as I said before) your statistical averages wind up worse than for any other OECD nation. You can't beat statistical averages. Even if you pile up 100 anecdotes of Canadians receiving slow, lousy healthcare, this simply means that somewhere in America, 100 Americans received slower, lousier healthcare (which includes possibly receiving no healthcare at all). In the end, the averages reflect the sum of all anecdotes; literally hundreds of millions of them. You only have to answer two questions, therefore: - Which do you value more: a) the ability for sufficiently wealthy and well-insured people to avail themselves of better, faster healthcare, while insufficiently wealthy/well-insured people contend with generally substandard care (in terms of affordability, access, and quality), or b) a better average standard of care accessible to every citizen, regardless of wealth/insurance, that meanwhile divests the wealthy of their wealth and their ability to purchase better, faster healthcare?
Classic individualism (a) versus collectivism (b). As advantages, (a) is generally fairer, more market-responsive, and more incentivizing of hard work, self-care, and good financial planning/management (or rather, it tends to de-incentivize the opposite), (b) is generally more equitable (equality of outcome), more efficient, more secure (fewer major risks and hazards), more merciful, and more conducive to a healthier society overall.
- If you value (b) more, do you reasonably believe Canadian-style healthcare can be administrated sustainably and efficiently in the US, at the scale of some 320 million people under one national government?
If your answer to 1 is (a), you're wasting your breath arguing with Weltz. You have a fundamental difference of values. You're not going to bridge this gap via debate. Your anecdotes, testimonies, personal experiences, etc., while admirably zealous, are worthless. You can't change a person's fundamental values by carpet bombing them with anecdotes and horror stories. Neither you nor Weltz can. Furthermore, you can't change fundamental values using statistics. All the data in the world won't change what people do and don't value.
If your answer to 1 is (b), then you and Weltz are on the same page as to which benefits are of greater value, and you can possibly make headway on question 2, which is of a technical nature, not a values judgment. Based on your commentary, I suspect your answer to 1 is (a), in which case: a wise man would thank her for her candor, agree to disagree, and let the arc die in peace. You've argued your case down to a fundamental difference in values, and that's the end of the road.
Thank you! and here it is... you are correct. Welts and a few others remind me of a couple of my siblings. Welts thank you for sharing your heartfelt thoughts, peace up!
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OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 10, 2019 9:26:00 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 10, 2019 13:42:59 GMT -5
I like this shirt, and would probably buy it from someone filled with less hate than this guy is.
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
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Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
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Post by dondub on Mar 10, 2019 14:09:19 GMT -5
Cool shirt.
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OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 10, 2019 19:59:49 GMT -5
Hmmmmm, wonder what happened to the original She ,,,Che?
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djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
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Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 10, 2019 22:30:20 GMT -5
Hmmmmm, wonder what happened to the original She ,,,Che? killed by a hit main on the orders of a fascist president. took 9 bullets to kill him.
hopefully, a similar fate does not await AOC, but I am sure some of the MAGAts are already planning it.
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Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 11, 2019 8:21:36 GMT -5
YMAM fact check: This excerpt is a hoax? Satire? Did this actually happen?
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Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,814
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 11, 2019 8:50:20 GMT -5
YMAM fact check: This excerpt is a hoax? Satire? Did this actually happen?
The Babylon Bee
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