djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 3, 2019 21:57:32 GMT -5
Try Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway and skip Venezuela if you want an honest discussion about democratic socialism of the type Bernie seeks. absolutely.
we have been messing with V since the Monroe Doctrine. Europe has been safely outside our reach.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 3, 2019 21:57:39 GMT -5
"Capitalism is failing too many people in our society. Fix it or lose it.”
In the 1860s, the US connected the East/West with the railroad. Over the next 50 years we grew/mined raw materials to ship East - and manufactured goods were shipped West. 1000s of ton miles in just a few days, 10X or 100X cheaper/faster than by wagon. Learned to turn iron into steel, open up vast markets to the world. Drilled oil wells, built roads, Made cars, airplanes, cut the cost of petroleum by 10X, made electricity available everywhere. Land was available to all, if you needed a new place to grow on, simply move a couple miles away and homestead a new plot, no land constraints like those found in Europe.Two major elements to this great new freedom were the invention of a Financial system and Corporations. The Monetary system standardized coinage and made it possible to do business form city to city, state to state. And corporations made it possible to organize large groups of people to focus on a single goal - and made it possible to organize large amounts of capital to facilitate common goals. Corporations and capitalism is what made the US great, a civilization that had never been matched worldwide.
But some where in the most recent 75 years, capitalism and wealth became pejoratives. We started Medicare in 1965, welfare, section 8 housing, school lunches, and a completely jumbled mixture of social programs. And with that we now have people who refuse to work, followed by a group who won't do dirty jobs cuz it's beneath them, yada. In the 1930s, you took whatever job was offered - if you didn't know how to milk cows, you learned. Butcher hogs? You learned - you didn't draw a welfare check for 99 weeks while you waited for an 'easy' job. ""attends a lecture for his completely unmarketable gender studies degree for dinner."" "THAT, mes amis, is socialism. Please provide a list of "socialist" democrats who are advocating for that kind of system."
List - I would start with Bernie and AOC. They probably don't 'advocate' that kind of system - they appear to be unaware that the 'free' things that they promote will ultimately morph into a dysfunctional helpless society - ie, Greece, Venezuela, USSR, etc. A good controlled experiment was East/West Germany- For 28 years the two groups, who had been raised together, schooled together, had the same genetic make-up, lived across the Wall from each other. After 28 years, the two groups were astonished to learn how the other side lived.
So, you got nothin'. Nobody on the left advocates for the kind of society I described. Bernie is following Canada's example, with healthcare for all and affordable tuition. That's not socialism. Are you saying that Canada has morphed into a dysfunctional, helpless society? Funny how you picked places like Venezuela and the USSR....nobody wants that, and I challenge you to name anyone on the left who is pushing that. Odd that you didn't mention the countries which are leaps and bounds ahead of you in everything from education to quality of life. Venezuela and USSR, indeed!
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Mar 3, 2019 22:42:25 GMT -5
""Are you saying that Canada has morphed into a dysfunctional, helpless society?""
No, I admire the Canadian system, I think that Canada has a handle on it. But it is also necessary to consider the people of those countries. Eg, if the US were to make the shift to the Canadian System, do you think American people would handle it like Canadians do? Or would they go off the rails and drive it to a US-Type congressional dysfunction?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 3, 2019 22:57:39 GMT -5
""Are you saying that Canada has morphed into a dysfunctional, helpless society?""
No, I admire the Canadian system, I think that Canada has a handle on it. But it is also necessary to consider the people of those countries. Eg, if the US were to make the shift to the Canadian System, do you think American people would handle it like Canadians do? Or would they go off the rails and drive it to a US-Type congressional dysfunction?
...and THAT'S what Bernie, AOC and others on the left are trying to do. Not install socialism USSR-style. I watch Fox News from time to time. I watched some today. OMG! The hysteria, the hand-wringing, the fabrications were funny to watch. "Socialism! Socialism! The left wants socialism like they have in Venezuela! Over our dead bodies! Get your guns!" Idiots.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 3, 2019 23:07:42 GMT -5
""Are you saying that Canada has morphed into a dysfunctional, helpless society?""
No, I admire the Canadian system, I think that Canada has a handle on it. But it is also necessary to consider the people of those countries. Eg, if the US were to make the shift to the Canadian System, do you think American people would handle it like Canadians do? Or would they go off the rails and drive it to a US-Type congressional dysfunction?
i have far more faith in the public than in congress.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 3, 2019 23:12:19 GMT -5
""Are you saying that Canada has morphed into a dysfunctional, helpless society?""
No, I admire the Canadian system, I think that Canada has a handle on it. But it is also necessary to consider the people of those countries. Eg, if the US were to make the shift to the Canadian System, do you think American people would handle it like Canadians do? Or would they go off the rails and drive it to a US-Type congressional dysfunction?
I hope the American people will be mature enough to handle it with grace, and not be too prideful to ask other countries for advice on how they make it work. Either that, or the guns will come out.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 4, 2019 7:39:12 GMT -5
""Are you saying that Canada has morphed into a dysfunctional, helpless society?""
No, I admire the Canadian system, I think that Canada has a handle on it. But it is also necessary to consider the people of those countries. Eg, if the US were to make the shift to the Canadian System, do you think American people would handle it like Canadians do? Or would they go off the rails and drive it to a US-Type congressional dysfunction?
This would be precisely my worry. The US has tried nationalizing (socializing) other services and industries in the past, following the example of other OECD nations. The results haven't been encouraging. You have Fannie/Freddie holding on to trillions in agency debt, your national rail line went bankrupt (or would have if not for a bailout), your postal service perennially operates at a loss, etc.
What works for a nation of 35 million people accustomed to paying high taxes doesn't automatically work for a nation of 315 million across 50 states with (sometimes radically) different laws and tolerances for taxation. Your federal government is opaque, unresponsive, heavily influenced by special interests. You have less than a tenth the representation per capita than Canada and the Nordic nations. In general, you're just too damn big. Moving over to Canadian-style healthcare isn't something you can take back. Once the dependency is there, it's there for good. If it turns out to be a nightmarish bureaucracy, an unsustainable tax burden, or both, you're going down with that ship.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Mar 4, 2019 7:45:54 GMT -5
I see OAC has spent over $30,000 on Uber and Lyft rides, and now she was riding around in her grandmother's passenger van in NYC. So much for walking the talk.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 4, 2019 8:19:43 GMT -5
This is what the Democrat Socialists want? I've read several articles about Sweden and its not all paradise.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 4, 2019 8:41:55 GMT -5
I see OAC has spent over $30,000 on Uber and Lyft rides, and now she was riding around in her grandmother's passenger van in NYC. So much for walking the talk. I don't endorse the piece or all of Mr. Moore's comments, but it includes some figures on the hypocrisy of Rep. Cortez and her campaign staff in the latter half.
I've read (and I believe) that Pres. Trump jumped on the "build the wall" bandwagon for no reason other than his wanting to rally Americans around a cause. Personally I don't think he cares one whit about illegal immigration. He's a hypocrite and his hiring practices are proof of it. Rep. Cortez is his counterpart on the left. I doubt she cares one whit about the environment, and her conduct in both work and life are proof of it. The GND is merely a cause for Americans to rally around, and a means to gain power. The difference being that Pres. Trump's bugbear is costing the US $10 billion dollars, while Rep. Cortez', if the GND were ever implemented, would cost the better half of $100 trillion and devastate American quality of life to boot.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Mar 4, 2019 8:43:15 GMT -5
""What works for a nation of 35 million people accustomed to paying high taxes doesn't automatically work for a nation of 315 million across 50 states with (sometimes radically) different laws and tolerances for taxation. Your federal government is opaque, unresponsive, heavily influenced by special interests. You have less than a tenth the representation per capita than Canada and the Nordic nations. In general, you're just too damn big.""
Exactly. 75 years ago, when the US had half the population of today, the people were independent, matured by the War and other hardships, and had 'can-do' attitudes. Now at 315 million, our K12s are having limited successes, leaving us with a poorly educated population of 'can't-do' people. They need school lunches and school breakfasts, their educations center around gender-studies, and our gov't is feckless. College students have coloring books "to help them cope". These things are hard to turn around, especially when there is little will to do so.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 4, 2019 8:44:30 GMT -5
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 4, 2019 9:49:45 GMT -5
yeah, gotta love the Bernie! Food rationing and bread lines are a good thing! Please take a number and bring a book to read, you maybe waiting awhile for your 1/4 loaf of bread per person.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 4, 2019 11:49:34 GMT -5
Canada's system is also ranked 37th by the WHO (like ours).
so, even though it is demonstrably fairer than ours, it has it's problems.
we should go for a system like France has. it is vastly superior to both.
but the right wing and the Medical Industrial Complex never bring up France in these discussions.
why is that?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 4, 2019 13:58:01 GMT -5
This is what the Democrat Socialists want? I've read several articles about Sweden and its not all paradise. Well, of course the system is going to groan and be on the brink of collapse if you get an influx of 600,000 people who don't pay into the system. That's hardly a valid argument.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 4, 2019 14:00:33 GMT -5
No, if it's an emergency, you're gonna get treated right away, and the surgeries are clearly getting prioritized based upon the urgency and importance of the surgery. And I've got news for you conservatives: the same thing happens in the United States! Let's look again at the Commonwealth Fund study: In the US, 4% of patients waited 4 months or longer for non-emergency or elective surgery, whereas 32% waited between 1 and 4 months. By comparison, in the UK, we found that an identical 32% waited 1 to 4 months, whereas 12% had to wait 4 months or longer. So while he frames these wait times in the UK as an outrageous scandal, when you compared the UK against the US, all we're really talking about is a minor difference of 8%. askepticalhuman.com/politics/2018/9/10/debunking-right-wing-healthcare-myths-wait-times-rationing
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 4, 2019 15:34:44 GMT -5
I see OAC has spent over $30,000 on Uber and Lyft rides, and now she was riding around in her grandmother's passenger van in NYC. So much for walking the talk. I don't endorse the piece or all of Mr. Moore's comments, but it includes some figures on the hypocrisy of Rep. Cortez and her campaign staff in the latter half.
I've read (and I believe) that Pres. Trump jumped on the "build the wall" bandwagon for no reason other than his wanting to rally Americans around a cause. Personally I don't think he cares one whit about illegal immigration. He's a hypocrite and his hiring practices are proof of it. Rep. Cortez is his counterpart on the left. I doubt she cares one whit about the environment, and her conduct in both work and life are proof of it. The GND is merely a cause for Americans to rally around, and a means to gain power. The difference being that Pres. Trump's bugbear is costing the US $10 billion dollars, while Rep. Cortez', if the GND were ever implemented, would cost the better half of $100 trillion and devastate American quality of life to boot.
What makes you think she doesn't care about the environment? Because she doesn't live in a cave, heating it with cow dung and wearing hemp underpants crafted by homeless people?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 4, 2019 15:42:19 GMT -5
The Fraser Institute? You have GOT to be kidding! It a right-wing think tank, funded by Exxon Mobil, the Koch brothers and other wealthy Americans. The Fraser Institute panders to big business, like Insurance and Tobacco. They actually claimed that smoking isn't that bad for you and they deny climate science.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Mar 4, 2019 16:22:34 GMT -5
I don't endorse the piece or all of Mr. Moore's comments, but it includes some figures on the hypocrisy of Rep. Cortez and her campaign staff in the latter half.
I've read (and I believe) that Pres. Trump jumped on the "build the wall" bandwagon for no reason other than his wanting to rally Americans around a cause. Personally I don't think he cares one whit about illegal immigration. He's a hypocrite and his hiring practices are proof of it. Rep. Cortez is his counterpart on the left. I doubt she cares one whit about the environment, and her conduct in both work and life are proof of it. The GND is merely a cause for Americans to rally around, and a means to gain power. The difference being that Pres. Trump's bugbear is costing the US $10 billion dollars, while Rep. Cortez', if the GND were ever implemented, would cost the better half of $100 trillion and devastate American quality of life to boot.
What makes you think she doesn't care about the environment? Because she doesn't live in a cave, heating it with cow dung and wearing hemp underpants crafted by homeless people? I'm sorry but this is hilarious! Topic notwithstanding. To on topic, this is what the right has been taught to do. If you ever concede to any weakness or failing by a conservative you have to immediately turn it around and include a tangential or unrelated attack on a democrat. It is eerily consistent across the board. Seems it is required and part of their programming. I find it odd because it is an illogical way of presenting thoughts. It's like someone is saying something but needs to interrupt themselves immediately for heresy with the sign of the cross or something.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 4, 2019 17:38:27 GMT -5
What makes you think she doesn't care about the environment? Because she doesn't live in a cave, heating it with cow dung and wearing hemp underpants crafted by homeless people? Basically, yes. She's laid out strict standards in the GND as to what Americans must do--the standards of living they must accept--to prevent environmental catastrophe (in her opinion). She's clearly unwilling to adhere to these standards herself, including the least cumbersome ones. Her leading by example would be an invaluable boost to the credence of her claims. It shows her supporters that she's sincere in her beliefs; she's willing to put them into action even without a government ordering her to do it. It shows her detractors that her proposed lifestyle is realistic, universal, and something the common man can endure without undue suffering. It shows everybody she has a clear and grounded idea of the sacrifices she's asking everyone to make. There's absolutely no substitute for a leader who walks the talk, especially when the electorate is skeptical about the rationale for the sacrifice, and doubly so when that electorate is reasonably concerned the rules won't apply equally to everybody. The last thing our society needs is another vehicle to depress the everyman while the rich and privileged ruling class get to buy their way out of all the rules. Rep. Cortez strikes me as... somewhat... reasonable. Enough to be aware of all of this. Yet still she chooses to act in a way that, according to her, is leading us to imminent environmental catastrophe. Hence what can we reasonably conclude if not that she doesn't genuinely care about the environment? She obviously cares about it less than flying, driving, and consuming her way through life. I don't know if the GND mandates cow dung and hemp underpants, but if it does and she's not using cow dung and hemp underpants, I agree with Mr. Moore: she's ignorant, a liar, and a hypocrite, at least on the issue of the environment.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 4, 2019 17:50:39 GMT -5
To on topic, this is what the right has been taught to do. If you ever concede to any weakness or failing by a conservative you have to immediately turn it around and include a tangential or unrelated attack on a democrat. Firstly, the attack on the Democrat is neither tangential nor unrelated. Secondly, conceding fault in a conservative is a YMAM must-do for two reasons: i) it (usually) preempts logically invalid but inevitable "But [conservative personage] also..." tu quoque counterarguments, and ii) it (usually) preempts "Who gives a crap?" counterarguments by reminding would-be respondents they've gone on record caring about it in other contexts.
In short: you're witnessing the logical reaction to your (YMAM's) own behaviour.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Mar 4, 2019 19:00:23 GMT -5
I have just mailed her 2 pair of hemp underpants and a hemp thong from the Virgil Snowleopard Foundation of Seattle.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 4, 2019 22:29:35 GMT -5
This is what the Democrat Socialists want? I've read several articles about Sweden and its not all paradise. Well, of course the system is going to groan and be on the brink of collapse if you get an influx of 600,000 people who don't pay into the system. That's hardly a valid argument. You mean like what's coming across the Southern Border of the U.S.?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 4, 2019 22:56:25 GMT -5
How dare she live in the society we have, while talking about improving it!
Her stance is that small tweaks to our society won't be enough. So, encouraging big changes, while still having a functional life is actually consistent.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 5, 2019 8:52:20 GMT -5
93 trillion $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is quite a tweak!!
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 5, 2019 9:21:14 GMT -5
Canada's system is also ranked 37th by the WHO (like ours).
so, even though it is demonstrably fairer than ours, it has it's problems.
we should go for a system like France has. it is vastly superior to both.
but the right wing and the Medical Industrial Complex never bring up France in these discussions.
why is that?
As far as Canada's system, from what I think your position is, you and I have differences on what is considered fair. I'll look into the Medical Industrial Complex question later when I have more time to spend on the computer, busy day ahead. After reading a couple of articles about France, not seeing that their system has reached anywhere near perfection either. It seems to me France is running out of other people's money to finance that superior system as well. In the article below (the bolded line) I find extremely worrisome. Hospitals carrying out unnecessary procedures to generate sufficient revenues to cover costs? Macron has given a warning that without changes the healthcare system will collapse. The population is aging out and they are running out of taxpayers to finance their system.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 5, 2019 15:17:36 GMT -5
Canada's system is also ranked 37th by the WHO (like ours).
so, even though it is demonstrably fairer than ours, it has it's problems.
we should go for a system like France has. it is vastly superior to both.
but the right wing and the Medical Industrial Complex never bring up France in these discussions.
why is that?
As far as Canada's system, from what I think your position is, you and I have differences on what is considered fair. let's settle that difference, then.
to me "fair" means equal access and opportunity.
what does "fair" mean to you?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 5, 2019 15:21:43 GMT -5
this is a separate point, but I fervently disagree.
the French system costs about half what the US system costs.
WE are running out of money, not them.
and it is not "other people's money". it is mine. it is yours.
let me make this personal. of the (3) grandparents that have died in my family during the last (10) years, (1) of them was bankrupted by the MIC, the second one, the widow of the bankrupt, barely had enough for hospice (and not enough for life saving surgery and treatment), one committed suicide rather than going bankrupt, and the last one had $1M when she retired, which has now fallen by 1/3.
so, please, spare me the lecture about cost. there really is no comparison.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 5, 2019 16:49:42 GMT -5
""Are you saying that Canada has morphed into a dysfunctional, helpless society?""
No, I admire the Canadian system, I think that Canada has a handle on it. But it is also necessary to consider the people of those countries. Eg, if the US were to make the shift to the Canadian System, do you think American people would handle it like Canadians do? Or would they go off the rails and drive it to a US-Type congressional dysfunction?
This would be precisely my worry. The US has tried nationalizing (socializing) other services and industries in the past, following the example of other OECD nations. The results haven't been encouraging. You have Fannie/Freddie holding on to trillions in agency debt, your national rail line went bankrupt (or would have if not for a bailout), your postal service perennially operates at a loss, etc.
What works for a nation of 35 million people accustomed to paying high taxes doesn't automatically work for a nation of 315 million across 50 states with (sometimes radically) different laws and tolerances for taxation. Your federal government is opaque, unresponsive, heavily influenced by special interests. You have less than a tenth the representation per capita than Canada and the Nordic nations. In general, you're just too damn big. Moving over to Canadian-style healthcare isn't something you can take back. Once the dependency is there, it's there for good. If it turns out to be a nightmarish bureaucracy, an unsustainable tax burden, or both, you're going down with that ship. ACA started as a plan in Mass. Many other states have some form of healthcare funding for kids. No reason healthcare couldn't be done at the state level - states can move faster, and are more responsive to what their regional voters want than the feds. Sure, some states will fuck it up while others do better, but it could work.
By the way, the post office would be making a great profit, if Congress hadn't used it as a cash cow over the years, diverting their profit into their pet projects.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 5, 2019 16:53:16 GMT -5
Canada's system is also ranked 37th by the WHO (like ours).
so, even though it is demonstrably fairer than ours, it has it's problems.
we should go for a system like France has. it is vastly superior to both.
but the right wing and the Medical Industrial Complex never bring up France in these discussions.
why is that?
As far as Canada's system, from what I think your position is, you and I have differences on what is considered fair. I'll look into the Medical Industrial Complex question later when I have more time to spend on the computer, busy day ahead. After reading a couple of articles about France, not seeing that their system has reached anywhere near perfection either. It seems to me France is running out of other people's money to finance that superior system as well. In the article below (the bolded line) I find extremely worrisome. Hospitals carrying out unnecessary procedures to generate sufficient revenues to cover costs? Macron has given a warning that without changes the healthcare system will collapse. The population is aging out and they are running out of taxpayers to finance their system. Other people's money? What are you yammering about? In countries with socialized medicine, it's OUR money. We all pool our resources and whoever needs health care, gets it. There ARE no "other people".
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