weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 6, 2019 20:20:36 GMT -5
No Canadian ever claimed it was free. However, going by your posts and AS's posts, you're implying that free healthcare is available to all. And what do you mean by "voluntarily impoverishing themselves'? You DO know that paying taxes is not voluntary, correct? Furthermore, our taxes not only cover health care, but daycare, higher education, maternity leave, nursing homes for the elderly, etc. It's one hell of a good deal. You end up paying far, far more in the long run than we pay in taxes. How much do you pay for child care? How much do you pay for higher education? How much do you pay for nursing homes for your parents? This is on top of paying through the nose for insurance premiums, deductibles, co-pays. voluntary impoverish... there are some people who will not work or limit how much they will work in order to remain in a low income bracket, this way they will continue to be eligible for government benefits. ya know, they like that 'free' government money, they scam the system. These are able bodied people. I am a taxpayer and very well aware paying taxes are not voluntary. Canadian residents pay higher tax rates in exchange for universal government run health care, child care, higher education, nursing care etc. eta. I have a Canadian born sister-in-law living in the US for many years, extended family still in Canada. They constantly complain how crappy the government run health care is, and through the years members of the extended family have come to the US for surgeries, testing and pay out of pocket. Got it on different provinces have different taxable rates. ...and Ron Paul, a surgeon, came to Canada for hernia repair, because it's better here. Did you have a point?
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Mar 6, 2019 20:26:37 GMT -5
Also...there have been a tremendous amount of bankruptcies (although much alleviated due to the ACA) both personal and at the doctor, clinic, and hospitals level. The latter 3 directly related to unpaid for treatment the uninsured receive. That's quite a cost right there to all of their creditors that ripples through the economy. The personal bancos of those uninsured do the same. The ACA has been a limiting factor in those yet the Repo-Con gadflies that trash the ACA must want that. They also gladly accept all of the deaths caused by folks not having insurance to allow earlier treatment. We see them here ignoring this tragedy while proudly being pro-life (well sort of I guess).
In the meantime, for the 18th year in a row, minimum, the Repo-Cons have done absolutely nothing to move America forward except bitch, piss, and moan about the ACA. What an achievement that is, being whiny little do nothing bitches.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 6, 2019 20:27:42 GMT -5
Yes, it's terrible here. People are dropping like flies on the street. It's not so bad in the winter, but in the spring, when the bodies start to thaw out, they really stink up the place. Canadians live longer, healthier than Americans: study NEW YORK (Reuters Life!) - Canadians live about three years longer and are healthier than Americans, and the lack of universal healthcare in the United States may be a factor, researchers said on Wednesday. www.reuters.com/article/us-health/canadians-live-longer-healthier-than-americans-study-idUSTRE63R6B520100429Ah, it's Reuters. Must be fake news.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 6, 2019 21:04:13 GMT -5
voluntary impoverish... there are some people who will not work or limit how much they will work in order to remain in a low income bracket, this way they will continue to be eligible for government benefits. ya know, they like that 'free' government money, they scam the system. These are able bodied people. I am a taxpayer and very well aware paying taxes are not voluntary. Canadian residents pay higher tax rates in exchange for universal government run health care, child care, higher education, nursing care etc. eta. I have a Canadian born sister-in-law living in the US for many years, extended family still in Canada. They constantly complain how crappy the government run health care is, and through the years members of the extended family have come to the US for surgeries, testing and pay out of pocket. Got it on different provinces have different taxable rates. You seem to be under the illusion that uninsured people don’t already cost you money. We all are already paying for their healthcare when they go to the ER. Only it’s costing us more than coverage for everyone would cost. We are already paying more per capita for healthcare and getting less for the money spent. you missed my post #81 ...? I'm under no illusion who picks up the costs of the uninsured. I noticed higher premiums for a crappy health insurance policy instantly after the ACA. My state in the beginning of the ACA had two insurance companies that I could chose from, now its down to one company with crappier policies and higher premiums and higher deductible. Please don't get me started on the open boarder people and illegal immigrants that use up taxpayers money and take resources away from our citizens. The elderly, handicapped and disabled, veterans, in my state are doing with less resources that were intended for them and their needs, so we can pay for people who don't even respect Americans and our laws. eta. Not interested in the crap single payer, government run, socialist Democrat version of health care or anything else under that agenda.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 6, 2019 22:02:53 GMT -5
Yes, it's terrible here. People are dropping like flies on the street. It's not so bad in the winter, but in the spring, when the bodies start to thaw out, they really stink up the place. Canadians live longer, healthier than Americans: study NEW YORK (Reuters Life!) - Canadians live about three years longer and are healthier than Americans, and the lack of universal healthcare in the United States may be a factor, researchers said on Wednesday. www.reuters.com/article/us-health/canadians-live-longer-healthier-than-americans-study-idUSTRE63R6B520100429Ah, it's Reuters. Must be fake news. All the countries that have higher taxes and more benefits are healthier and happier than America.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 6, 2019 22:11:10 GMT -5
...and Ron Paul, a surgeon, came to Canada for hernia repair, because it's better here. Did you have a point? Rand Paul. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/secret.png) Otherwise: good job so far on defending our system. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/wink.png)
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 6, 2019 23:38:46 GMT -5
eta. I have a Canadian born sister-in-law living in the US for many years, extended family still in Canada. They constantly complain how crappy the government run health care is, and through the years members of the extended family have come to the US for surgeries, testing and pay out of pocket. Got it on different provinces have different taxable rates. On one level, I understand your frustration. I've posted about my one misadventure through our system: trying to get a diagnosis and treatment for a stone in my salivary duct. It took months between visits to specialists, labs, doctors, etc. The stone fortunately cleared up on its own after about 16 months, while I was still being slowly bounced around. I've also posted about my grandfather's experience. 85 years old at the time (just a few years ago) and he'd never been admitted to a hospital once in his life. He badly needed a knee replacement for almost two years. He could barely walk, and it was destroying his quality of life. He might still be waiting to this day had a chance encounter not gotten him into a specialty hospital in southern Ontario. He's the kind of man where if socialized healthcare didn't exist and he'd instead banked his healthcare tax dollars into a rainy day fund, he'd have had the knee surgery in the blink of an eye and still be (literally) millions of dollars richer than he is. It was hard to watch him suffer for so long after he'd sacrificed for so long and think, "Wow. What a great system we have here." I'd say this is the fundamental problem with socialized healthcare: it's unjust. The man who pays in vast sums of money and strives to keep himself healthy his entire life is put at the back of the line behind men who abuse their bodies and do nothing but take from society. In fact, ironically, the more a man abuses himself, the more serious his health problems are likely to be, and the more likely he'll receive prompt treatment once he's made his way through triage. Ours is a truly arse backwards system in this regard. So I do understand your misgivings. However, if you're looking at the overall health and welfare of society, which prioritizes "the greatest good for the greatest number" over individual fairness, I'm afraid this is a debate you can't possibly win. Canadian healthcare is vastly cheaper per capita, it has equal or better patient outcomes on average, it has less overhead, and it's more accessible. As Weltz has pointed out, it leads to a healthier, more financially secure, less litigious society. For society as a whole, it's clearly and undeniably the better option. 50+ years of statistics bear this out. Our system also brings the peace of mind that comes from doctors/hospitals knowing they're going to get paid, accident victims knowing they're insured and aren't going to be staring down a $100K ambulance bill, and the chronically ill knowing they're not going to run out the insurance clock and bankrupt their families with medical bills. Hence even as crummy as our system is at times, I'm a stalwart supporter. I'll tolerate unfairness if it leads to a significantly happier, healthier society overall. That's a big part of what citizenship and nationhood is about: sacrificing for the common good. As I've said before, however: I'm skeptical that our system will work nearly as well at 10+ times the scale. One thing socialized healthcare stats also tell us is that the inefficiencies of a public system multiply with its size. In terms of cost overhead, the tiny Nordic nations significantly outperform Canada, which in turn significantly outperforms behemoths like the UK and Germany. Germany is only 2.5x the size of Canada. The US is 4x the size of Germany, and your federal programs have a dismal history to boot. If you're convinced socialized healthcare is a bad idea, this is where you should hang your hat. There's still a lot of uncertainty, but the data we do have are in your court in that match. You also have the reality that if socialized healthcare turns out to be a disaster in the US, you can't simply go back to the way things are now. If you jump off that cliff to see if there's water at the bottom, you can't un-jump it.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 6, 2019 23:44:02 GMT -5
...and Ron Paul, a surgeon, came to Canada for hernia repair, because it's better here. Did you have a point? Rand Paul. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/secret.png) Otherwise: good job so far on defending our system. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/wink.png) Sorry, you're right. Rand Paul.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 7, 2019 1:08:41 GMT -5
It was hard to watch him suffer for so long after he'd sacrificed for so long and think, "Wow. What a great system we have here." I'd say this is the fundamental problem with socialized healthcare: it's unjust. The man who pays in vast sums of money and strives to keep himself healthy his entire life is put at the back of the line behind men who abuse their bodies and do nothing but take from society. In fact, ironically, the more a man abuses himself, the more serious his health problems are likely to be, and the more likely he'll receive prompt treatment once he's made his way through triage. Ours is a truly arse backwards system in this regard.
I prefer that aspect of it....you get healthcare without judgement and condemnation. "You smoked...back of the line for you! Had an abortion, didn't exercise, drove too fast, did opioids, destroyed your knees running marathons, ate too much and developed diabetes, drank too much, didn't get vaccinated, went skiing and got a concussion, took ecstasy and smoked pot, became obese, played hockey, went skydiving, slept with too many partners....back of the line! You don't deserve healthcare!"
That's an incredibly slippery slope. Only the most chaste, straight and stalwart will get the best care. Where does it end? Only vegetarians who live at the gym? People are fallible. The sickest should be treated first, no matter how they got that way.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 7, 2019 6:46:47 GMT -5
Yes, our system requires an individual/family to buy insurance coverage if they want it and are not qualified under the Medicaid or Medicare programs. The government subsidizes (financial assistance) to some individual/family policies depending on how much earned income. ACA Open Enrollment: If You Are Low-Income…https://www.kff.org/health-reform/fact-sheet/aca-open-enrollment-if-you-are-low-income/ Nothing is 'free' someone is paying for those services, taxpayers or through increased premiums to paying policy holders. Canada doesn't have 'free' insurance either, it is taxpayer funded and government makes all decisions regarding healthcare services, correct? eta... I'm not sure why you are asking me how long does it take for someone to save up for a hip replacement, I don't have access to strangers financial statements and budgets. Its also a mystery to me why some people will voluntarily impoverish themselves to get 'free to them' taxpayer funded services. No Canadian ever claimed it was free. However, going by your posts and AS's posts, you're implying that free healthcare is available to all.And what do you mean by "voluntarily impoverishing themselves'? You DO know that paying taxes is not voluntary, correct? Furthermore, our taxes not only cover health care, but daycare, higher education, maternity leave, nursing homes for the elderly, etc. It's one hell of a good deal. You end up paying far, far more in the long run than we pay in taxes. How much do you pay for child care? How much do you pay for higher education? How much do you pay for nursing homes for your parents? This is on top of paying through the nose for insurance premiums, deductibles, co-pays. If You are truly poor, pretty sure I did not imply it was free to everyone.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 7, 2019 7:28:40 GMT -5
It was hard to watch him suffer for so long after he'd sacrificed for so long and think, "Wow. What a great system we have here." I'd say this is the fundamental problem with socialized healthcare: it's unjust. The man who pays in vast sums of money and strives to keep himself healthy his entire life is put at the back of the line behind men who abuse their bodies and do nothing but take from society. In fact, ironically, the more a man abuses himself, the more serious his health problems are likely to be, and the more likely he'll receive prompt treatment once he's made his way through triage. Ours is a truly arse backwards system in this regard.I prefer that aspect of it....you get healthcare without judgement and condemnation. "You smoked...back of the line for you! Had an abortion, didn't exercise, drove too fast, did opioids, destroyed your knees running marathons, ate too much and developed diabetes, drank too much, didn't get vaccinated, went skiing and got a concussion, took ecstasy and smoked pot, became obese, played hockey, went skydiving, slept with too many partners....back of the line! You don't deserve healthcare!" That's an incredibly slippery slope. Only the most chaste, straight and stalwart will get the best care. Where does it end? Only vegetarians who live at the gym? People are fallible. The sickest should be treated first, no matter how they got that way. I altogether prefer systems where the less fallible one is, the greater benefit one receives. Or at the very least not the other way around. I'd also prefer a system where people feared the consequences of smoking, having an abortion, not exercising, driving too fast, doing drugs, drinking too much, avoiding vaccination, sleeping around, punishing their bodies, etc. a lot more than they do. Imagine how great our society and standard of living could be if we weren't flushing hundreds of billions a year down the tube mitigating the effects of preventable illness/injury. But indeed I understand well that man is fallible and that justice should be tempered with mercy, which (among the other reasons listed) is why I support socialized healthcare.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 7, 2019 10:21:46 GMT -5
Pregnancy and childbirth is way, way, way more risky than having an abortion before 20 weeks. Maybe we should put that on the list of things that are preventable.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 7, 2019 11:20:55 GMT -5
Pregnancy and childbirth is way, way, way more risky than having an abortion before 20 weeks. Maybe we should put that on the list of things that are preventable. Yes, yes. And eating food is a choking hazard, driving on highways runs the risk of a fatal collision, ... I'm not arguing that we should ban living. I don't expect people to avoid every conceivable risk and forsake every conceivable reward. Even things like routinely running marathons, which I've seen absolutely destroy people's bodies (in later life) and soak up huge healthcare bux, are a gray area for me. If you don't like the specific risks in Weltz' list, take it up with Weltz.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 7, 2019 12:01:12 GMT -5
let's settle that difference, then.
to me "fair" means equal access and opportunity.
what does "fair" mean to you?
As an example from my post #41, the Forbes article. "One Ontario woman, Judy Congdon, learned that she needed a hip replacement in 2016, according to the Toronto Sun. Doctors initially scheduled the procedure for September 2017 -- almost a year later. The surgery never happened on schedule. The hospital ran over budget, forcing physicians to postpone the operation for another year." How is waiting over a year for a hip surgery fair? I suppose she had equal access for a diagnosis and eventually will get the opportunity for the needed hip surgery. The hospital was over budget, and was rationing care to this patient. Was it just unlucky she wasn't diagnosed earlier in the year when funding was available? it has nothing to do with "fair".
fair has to do with whether one party has an advantage over another.
if you were to say that a person had no access to ANY surgery, and another could get it done by making a phone call- i would describe that as utterly unfair. are you making that claim?
you seem to have a very different understanding of the word fair than i do.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 7, 2019 12:03:54 GMT -5
My brother in law waited 3 weeks for a hip replacement. If the Ontario woman waited in excess of a year and your brother only three weeks... then the system is not fair with equal access and opportunity. it might have been a problem with that specific hospital. i guess that is unfair. i think i would call it unlucky.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 7, 2019 14:04:00 GMT -5
If the Ontario woman waited in excess of a year and your brother only three weeks... then the system is not fair with equal access and opportunity. it might have been a problem with that specific hospital. i guess that is unfair. i think i would call it unlucky. yeah... I'm starting to see it as unlucky too and is determined by what province you live in based on earned income and taxable rates, maybe? After reading Weltsmertz post #88 the different provinces tax their citizens differently, and apparently coverage is different depending where you live. I find this confusing and trying to understand their system. If you live in a higher taxed province like Quebec then sex change operations and IVF are included and not an extra charge for those operations/services, lower taxed provinces do not offer that coverage and only provide a basic amount of coverage. All of Canada seems to have a basic level of care, if an individual wants more than basic coverage and the extra's they need to move to a different province with higher taxable rates or pay out of pocket? My guess is Quebec is an affluent and wealthier province? Maybe Quebec has a larger population and taxpayer base paying into the system and can offer more as far as coverage? So instead of buying a policy on the ACA market place by state like in the USA or coverage through an employer, do Canadians compares provinces and tax rates/coverage and that determines where they will live and work? Or plan ahead knowing if they want access to certain procedures/operations/specialists and testing they need to save up to pay out of pocket or travel to another country if they want a procedure/testing done in a more timely manner. The Onatario hip replacement lady waited over a year due to the hospitals lack of funding and had to postpone surgery (happy she did not need cancer treatment) vs Weltsmertz brother had only a 3 week wait, possible the brother lives in a more affluent area with a higher tax rate and resulting larger hospital budget? This sounds like rationing care to me based on earned income taxable rates living in a more affluent province? Hey, I'm totally confused on how they operate their healthcare delivery, taxation by province, why some only have access to basic care vs upgrades in care determined by province. Maybe Welts or Virgil will see this and clarify. I'm confused.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 7, 2019 14:17:46 GMT -5
eta. I have a Canadian born sister-in-law living in the US for many years, extended family still in Canada. They constantly complain how crappy the government run health care is, and through the years members of the extended family have come to the US for surgeries, testing and pay out of pocket. Got it on different provinces have different taxable rates. On one level, I understand your frustration. I've posted about my one misadventure through our system: trying to get a diagnosis and treatment for a stone in my salivary duct. It took months between visits to specialists, labs, doctors, etc. The stone fortunately cleared up on its own after about 16 months, while I was still being slowly bounced around. I've also posted about my grandfather's experience. 85 years old at the time (just a few years ago) and he'd never been admitted to a hospital once in his life. He badly needed a knee replacement for almost two years. He could barely walk, and it was destroying his quality of life. He might still be waiting to this day had a chance encounter not gotten him into a specialty hospital in southern Ontario. He's the kind of man where if socialized healthcare didn't exist and he'd instead banked his healthcare tax dollars into a rainy day fund, he'd have had the knee surgery in the blink of an eye and still be (literally) millions of dollars richer than he is. It was hard to watch him suffer for so long after he'd sacrificed for so long and think, "Wow. What a great system we have here." I'd say this is the fundamental problem with socialized healthcare: it's unjust. The man who pays in vast sums of money and strives to keep himself healthy his entire life is put at the back of the line behind men who abuse their bodies and do nothing but take from society. In fact, ironically, the more a man abuses himself, the more serious his health problems are likely to be, and the more likely he'll receive prompt treatment once he's made his way through triage. Ours is a truly arse backwards system in this regard. So I do understand your misgivings. However, if you're looking at the overall health and welfare of society, which prioritizes "the greatest good for the greatest number" over individual fairness, I'm afraid this is a debate you can't possibly win. Canadian healthcare is vastly cheaper per capita, it has equal or better patient outcomes on average, it has less overhead, and it's more accessible. As Weltz has pointed out, it leads to a healthier, more financially secure, less litigious society. For society as a whole, it's clearly and undeniably the better option. 50+ years of statistics bear this out. Our system also brings the peace of mind that comes from doctors/hospitals knowing they're going to get paid, accident victims knowing they're insured and aren't going to be staring down a $100K ambulance bill, and the chronically ill knowing they're not going to run out the insurance clock and bankrupt their families with medical bills. Hence even as crummy as our system is at times, I'm a stalwart supporter. I'll tolerate unfairness if it leads to a significantly happier, healthier society overall. That's a big part of what citizenship and nationhood is about: sacrificing for the common good. As I've said before, however: I'm skeptical that our system will work nearly as well at 10+ times the scale. One thing socialized healthcare stats also tell us is that the inefficiencies of a public system multiply with its size. In terms of cost overhead, the tiny Nordic nations significantly outperform Canada, which in turn significantly outperforms behemoths like the UK and Germany. Germany is only 2.5x the size of Canada. The US is 4x the size of Germany, and your federal programs have a dismal history to boot.If you're convinced socialized healthcare is a bad idea, this is where you should hang your hat. There's still a lot of uncertainty, but the data we do have are in your court in that match. You also have the reality that if socialized healthcare turns out to be a disaster in the US, you can't simply go back to the way things are now. If you jump off that cliff to see if there's water at the bottom, you can't un-jump it. Thank you for sharing and I am going to take more time to read over your post again and digest the information better later this evening or in the morning. I think you are correct in that it wouldn't work well in the US due to our size, the part of your post I bolded makes a lot of sense to me. It sounds like your Doctors do not need to have liability insurance?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 7, 2019 15:38:42 GMT -5
Pregnancy and childbirth is way, way, way more risky than having an abortion before 20 weeks. Maybe we should put that on the list of things that are preventable. Yes, yes. And eating food is a choking hazard, driving on highways runs the risk of a fatal collision, ... I'm not arguing that we should ban living. I don't expect people to avoid every conceivable risk and forsake every conceivable reward. Even things like routinely running marathons, which I've seen absolutely destroy people's bodies (in later life) and soak up huge healthcare bux, are a gray area for me. If you don't like the specific risks in Weltz' list, take it up with Weltz.
Well, Virgil, you should petition the government requesting that only the people who don't do much of anything, except go to church, should go to the head of the line. Don't forget to mention that YOU DON'T VOTE.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 7, 2019 17:50:41 GMT -5
Well, Virgil, you should petition the government requesting that only the people who don't do much of anything, except go to church, should go to the head of the line. The consummate capitalist would say: Let every man do as much damage to his health as he pleases by whatever lawful means he pleases, but only to the extent he can pay for any treatment he requires. If he can't afford to do anything except go to church, he either sticks with going to church or lives with the consequences of taking risks he can't afford. I'm not a consummate capitalist. I've said I support our system, hence I don't even know why you're on my case here.
But as long as we're playing reductio ad absurdum: Weltz, you should petition the government to request that every unvaccinated kid in the country who falls ill with MMR is put up in a quarantined luxury penthouse with their own personal doctor, a tutor to keep them current on their coursework, gourmet meals, and their choice of companion animal. Just to make sure the prospect of little Johnny being sick and miserable at home for week doesn't factor into his busy parents' decision on whether or not to vaccinate him. Also, make sure every TB-infested border-hopping refugee coming into the country gets a $2K voucher for Shoppers Drug Mart if they stop taking their antibiotics after a week. Wouldn't want them going without tissues and painkillers if the disease comes storming back.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 7, 2019 18:18:43 GMT -5
Well, Virgil, you should petition the government requesting that only the people who don't do much of anything, except go to church, should go to the head of the line. The consummate capitalist would say: Let every man do as much damage to his health as he pleases by whatever lawful means he pleases, but only to the extent he can pay for any treatment he requires. If he can't afford to do anything except go to church, he either sticks with going to church or lives with the consequences of taking risks he can't afford. I'm not a consummate capitalist. I've said I support our system, hence I don't even know why you're on my case here.
But as long as we're playing reductio ad absurdum: Weltz, you should petition the government to request that every unvaccinated kid in the country who falls ill with MMR is put up in a quarantined luxury penthouse with their own personal doctor, a tutor to keep them current on their coursework, gourmet meals, and their choice of companion animal. Just to make sure the prospect of little Johnny being sick and miserable at home for week doesn't factor into his busy parents' decision on whether or not to vaccinate him. Also, make sure every TB-infested border-hopping refugee coming into the country gets a $2K voucher for Shoppers Drug Mart if they stop taking their antibiotics after a week. Wouldn't want them going without tissues and painkillers if the disease comes storming back.
That's just crazy talk and has nothing to do with anything. YOU'RE the one who said people who indulge in risky behaviour should go to the back of the line. I strongly, strongly disagree. The sickest should go first. It smacks of US insurance companies, which go through your file with a fine-toothed comb, looking to deny, deny, deny. And who will be the Grand Arbiter? You? Premarital sex? Back of the line! Jumped out a plane with a parachute? Back of the line! Didn't exercise enough? Back of the line! Jaywalked and were hit by a car? Back of the line! Ate too much? Back of the line! Drive too fast? Back of the line! Now, YOU may be perfect, but nobody else is. It's a very slippery slope, full of judgement and condemnation and a very dangerous precedent to set.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 7, 2019 20:19:05 GMT -5
Good catch. We certainly don't want anyone flying off the handle and taking things to illogical extremes. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/actnatural.png)
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Great
Familiar Member
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Post by Great on Mar 9, 2019 9:19:27 GMT -5
eta. I have a Canadian born sister-in-law living in the US for many years, extended family still in Canada. They constantly complain how crappy the government run health care is, and through the years members of the extended family have come to the US for surgeries, testing and pay out of pocket. Got it on different provinces have different taxable rates. On one level, I understand your frustration. I've posted about my one misadventure through our system: trying to get a diagnosis and treatment for a stone in my salivary duct. It took months between visits to specialists, labs, doctors, etc. The stone fortunately cleared up on its own after about 16 months, while I was still being slowly bounced around. I've also posted about my grandfather's experience. 85 years old at the time (just a few years ago) and he'd never been admitted to a hospital once in his life. He badly needed a knee replacement for almost two years. He could barely walk, and it was destroying his quality of life. He might still be waiting to this day had a chance encounter not gotten him into a specialty hospital in southern Ontario. He's the kind of man where if socialized healthcare didn't exist and he'd instead banked his healthcare tax dollars into a rainy day fund, he'd have had the knee surgery in the blink of an eye and still be (literally) millions of dollars richer than he is. It was hard to watch him suffer for so long after he'd sacrificed for so long and think, "Wow. What a great system we have here." I'd say this is the fundamental problem with socialized healthcare: it's unjust. The man who pays in vast sums of money and strives to keep himself healthy his entire life is put at the back of the line behind men who abuse their bodies and do nothing but take from society. In fact, ironically, the more a man abuses himself, the more serious his health problems are likely to be, and the more likely he'll receive prompt treatment once he's made his way through triage. Ours is a truly arse backwards system in this regard. So I do understand your misgivings. However, if you're looking at the overall health and welfare of society, which prioritizes "the greatest good for the greatest number" over individual fairness, I'm afraid this is a debate you can't possibly win. Canadian healthcare is vastly cheaper per capita, it has equal or better patient outcomes on average, it has less overhead, and it's more accessible. As Weltz has pointed out, it leads to a healthier, more financially secure, less litigious society. For society as a whole, it's clearly and undeniably the better option. 50+ years of statistics bear this out. Our system also brings the peace of mind that comes from doctors/hospitals knowing they're going to get paid, accident victims knowing they're insured and aren't going to be staring down a $100K ambulance bill, and the chronically ill knowing they're not going to run out the insurance clock and bankrupt their families with medical bills. Hence even as crummy as our system is at times, I'm a stalwart supporter. I'll tolerate unfairness if it leads to a significantly happier, healthier society overall. That's a big part of what citizenship and nationhood is about: sacrificing for the common good. As I've said before, however: I'm skeptical that our system will work nearly as well at 10+ times the scale. One thing socialized healthcare stats also tell us is that the inefficiencies of a public system multiply with its size. In terms of cost overhead, the tiny Nordic nations significantly outperform Canada, which in turn significantly outperforms behemoths like the UK and Germany. Germany is only 2.5x the size of Canada. The US is 4x the size of Germany, and your federal programs have a dismal history to boot. If you're convinced socialized healthcare is a bad idea, this is where you should hang your hat. There's still a lot of uncertainty, but the data we do have are in your court in that match. You also have the reality that if socialized healthcare turns out to be a disaster in the US, you can't simply go back to the way things are now. If you jump off that cliff to see if there's water at the bottom, you can't un-jump it. I find what happened to your grandfather just heartbreaking that he suffered for so long and could not get the much needed care in a timely manner. The same with your experience of being bounced around for the salivary duct issues for 16 months. These are the complaints that my Canadian sister in law's extended family had and as result came to the US for treatment, testing and surgeries. The people I know that have US Medicare coverage (government run insurance for 65+) all but one person (at the younger end and very healthy at 67 yrs old and has not needed to use it) had gotten the same run around with months between doctor appointments, specialists, lab testing, MRI's etc, they all suffered in excess of a year and up to 2 years to get their surgeries. These people were having problems with diabetes, hip and knee replacements, both shoulder rotator cup, hernia and other issues. More than one of these people have said they wished they could opt out of Medicare, they were forced into it at age 65. I am too young at this point to qualify for Medicare, but I dread the day I'll be forced into that program. The politicians, socialists democrats, campaigning on Medicare for All, it will be no different than your socialized medicine and all the problems associated. My daughter in law comes from a country with socialized health care, sure everyone has an easy time getting bandaids and aspirin. Have a more serious problem, get ready for the run around and months between appointments, testing, labs, specialists etc. This country has a merit based legal immigration and only want those who are able to pay into the system before they have access to the health care and other social services. She has a US permanent resident green card and is considered a non resident citizen in her country of origin. Its my understanding from my son that if they ever would want to retire to her country of origin and live there someday, they need to file an annual return and pay into the system. Last year was the first year they had to file a return to her country of origin and paid approx $2500. US dollars. I don't know if this amount will change now that they have a child, but my grandchild is covered under their health care until 21 yrs old, as well as my DIL, but my son is not covered when he travels and visits. :-) I'm still learning their system slowly. My DIL has on more than one occasion told me the US is a much better place to raise a child, her extended family agrees, they all wish they could move here after visiting. My son has health insurance through his work and covers his family (self, wife, child) in the US. I have not ever heard anything good about socialized medicine/health care, nothing could ever convince me to try that experiment in the US. As far as the Canadian system. I don't understand the different tax rates and coverage determined by provinces, and how individual hospitals are funded, can you explain that to me? Why in one province a hip replacement surgery is done in 3 weeks, but the same surgery in another province didn't have the funding and a patient was made to wait more than a year.
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Deleted
Joined: Jun 26, 2024 14:42:44 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 13:02:21 GMT -5
voluntary impoverish... there are some people who will not work or limit how much they will work in order to remain in a low income bracket, this way they will continue to be eligible for government benefits. ya know, they like that 'free' government money, they scam the system. These are able bodied people. I am a taxpayer and very well aware paying taxes are not voluntary. Canadian residents pay higher tax rates in exchange for universal government run health care, child care, higher education, nursing care etc. eta. I have a Canadian born sister-in-law living in the US for many years, extended family still in Canada. They constantly complain how crappy the government run health care is, and through the years members of the extended family have come to the US for surgeries, testing and pay out of pocket. Got it on different provinces have different taxable rates. You seem to be under the illusion that uninsured people don’t already cost you money. We all are already paying for their healthcare when they go to the ER. Only it’s costing us more than coverage for everyone would cost. We are already paying more per capita for healthcare and getting less for the money spent. And 200,000 illegals sneaking over the border helps this how ?
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weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 9, 2019 13:49:15 GMT -5
My DIL has on more than one occasion told me the US is a much better place to raise a child, her extended family agrees, they all wish they could move here after visiting.
I lived in the US for many years, and I strongly disagree. Canada is a much better place to raise a child. I raised a child in both. People who are "just visiting" may get a distorted picture of what life is like in the USA. Your DIL didn't have to deal with the crappy education system in the US for her kids, and didn't have to deal with the massive boondoggles of your health insurance system. I lived there, and came back home to Canada. Furthermore, take a look at the top ten countries where it's best to raise a family. The USA isn't even on the list. www.cnbc.com/2018/02/06/us-news-world-report-2018-top-10-best-countries-to-raise-children.htmlwww.usnews.com/news/best-countries/best-raising-childrenHowever, since you're American, feel free to beat yourself on the chest while screaming that you're Number One! American exceptionalism!
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
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Post by dondub on Mar 9, 2019 14:34:47 GMT -5
When I was a kid in the 50's and 60's we were #1 in just about everything. But when you engage in endless wars and military incursions all over the globe, funding bases in 70+ countries, then in the early 80's start the massive tax cutting of the top 10% thus shrinking revenues, you end up with massive deficits and the inability to take corrective action to solve our own problems. Thus you have Trump promising a better healthcare plan and infrastructure rebuilding projects and none of this can be funded. The Repo-Cons fight against a demand side economy that would put more disposable income into the hands of We The People, really adding juice to the economy, by movements against collective bargaining and increasing the minimum wage and not allowing wages to keep pace with productivity gains all while reaping record corporate profits. Instead we are on Phase III of Tinkle Down and the peeons are wetter than a hotel suite full of Russian hookers. Now we have the two tiered society where for the top 10% America still is the #1 country in the world and they have it made. The 90%....not so much. If it continues this way there will eventually be blood in the streets. I believe this is inevitable.
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weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 9, 2019 14:45:50 GMT -5
When I was a kid in the 50's and 60's we were #1 in just about everything. But when you engage in endless wars and military incursions all over the globe, funding bases in 70+ countries, then in the early 80's start the massive tax cutting of the top 10% thus shrinking revenues, you end up with massive deficits and the inability to take corrective action to solve our own problems. Thus you have Trump promising a better healthcare plan and infrastructure rebuilding projects and none of this can be funded. The Repo-Cons fight against a demand side economy that would put more disposable income into the hands of We The People, really adding juice to the economy, by movements against collective bargaining and increasing the minimum wage and not allowing wages to keep pace with productivity gains all while reaping record corporate profits. Instead we are on Phase III of Tinkle Down and the peeons are wetter than a hotel suite full of Russian hookers. Now we have the two tiered society where for the top 10% America still is the #1 country in the world and they have it made. The 90%....not so much. If it continues this way there will eventually be blood in the streets. I believe this is inevitable. It was easy to be #1 when most of the rest of the world was bombed to smithereens during WWII. They had to spend several decades trying to rebuild after digging themselves out of the rubble. Many European cities looked like this.... ![](http://vid01.bt.co.uk/v1/bc/pd/2045965034001/201509/1821/2045965034001_4458974806001_PA-1194387-video-large.jpg?pubId=2045965034001)
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Great
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 5, 2012 14:48:31 GMT -5
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Post by Great on Mar 9, 2019 14:55:55 GMT -5
My DIL has on more than one occasion told me the US is a much better place to raise a child, her extended family agrees, they all wish they could move here after visiting.
I lived in the US for many years, and I strongly disagree. Canada is a much better place to raise a child. I raised a child in both. People who are "just visiting" may get a distorted picture of what life is like in the USA. Your DIL didn't have to deal with the crappy education system in the US for her kids, and didn't have to deal with the massive boondoggles of your health insurance system. I lived there, and came back home to Canada. Furthermore, take a look at the top ten countries where it's best to raise a family. The USA isn't even on the list. www.cnbc.com/2018/02/06/us-news-world-report-2018-top-10-best-countries-to-raise-children.htmlwww.usnews.com/news/best-countries/best-raising-childrenHowever, since you're American, feel free to beat yourself on the chest while screaming that you're Number One! American exceptionalism! hey, stand tall and be proud you are a Canadian! I'm not sure why you are so nasty and bitter towards Americans, but its ugly. My DIL's country of origin is NOT Canada. DIL attended private school in her country of origin, went on to attend a private 4 yr university, and then came to the USA on a student visa to attend a private university for an additional 2 years. My DIL's child, my grandchild, is not even a year old. Furthermore, my dear grand child will attend the same private college prep school my son attended, and will more than likely go on to a private university for higher education, just like her mom and dad did. None of us are big fans of any public education system, no matter which country. My DIL's country of origin has socialized healthcare, she has lived here long enough to be familiar with the US healthcare system. She hasn't had any problems with dealing with insurance, doctors, specialists etc. for either her personal health care or with the pediatrician.... not sure what boondoggles you are referring to. DIL always tells me the healthcare system is much better in the US. In fact she tells me people from her country of origin come to the US for surgeries and procedures rather than the fear of dying waiting on socialized healthcare and the rationing that goes on.
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weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 9, 2019 15:09:03 GMT -5
My DIL has on more than one occasion told me the US is a much better place to raise a child, her extended family agrees, they all wish they could move here after visiting.
I lived in the US for many years, and I strongly disagree. Canada is a much better place to raise a child. I raised a child in both. People who are "just visiting" may get a distorted picture of what life is like in the USA. Your DIL didn't have to deal with the crappy education system in the US for her kids, and didn't have to deal with the massive boondoggles of your health insurance system. I lived there, and came back home to Canada. Furthermore, take a look at the top ten countries where it's best to raise a family. The USA isn't even on the list. www.cnbc.com/2018/02/06/us-news-world-report-2018-top-10-best-countries-to-raise-children.htmlwww.usnews.com/news/best-countries/best-raising-childrenHowever, since you're American, feel free to beat yourself on the chest while screaming that you're Number One! American exceptionalism! hey, stand tall and be proud you are a Canadian! I'm not sure why you are so nasty and bitter towards Americans, but its ugly. My DIL's country of origin is NOT Canada. DIL attended private school in her country of origin, went on to attend a private 4 yr university, and then came to the USA on a student visa to attend a private university for an additional 2 years. My DIL's child, my grandchild, is not even a year old. Furthermore, my dear grand child will attend the same private college prep school my son attended, and will more than likely go on to a private university for higher education, just like her mom and dad did.None of us are big fans of any public education system, no matter which country. My DIL's country of origin has socialized healthcare, she has lived here long enough to be familiar with the US healthcare system. She hasn't had any problems with dealing with insurance, doctors, specialists etc. for either her personal health care or with the pediatrician.... not sure what boondoggles you are referring to. DIL always tells me the healthcare system is much better in the US. In fact she tells me people from her country of origin come to the US for surgeries and procedures rather than the fear of dying waiting on socialized healthcare and the rationing that goes on. ...and many Americans go overseas for healthcare. What's your point? It sounds like they have money, with private prep schools, etc. What's life like when you're NOT rich? I'm not bitter about America. I'm just really tired of hearing how you"re #1 and best at absolutely everything, when clearly, you're not. "eta. I have a Canadian born sister-in-law living in the US for many years, extended family still in Canada. They constantly complain how crappy the government run health care is, and through the years members of the extended family have come to the US for surgeries, testing and pay out of pocket. "
You said she was Canadian-born. You neglected to mention where she's actually from.
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Great
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 5, 2012 14:48:31 GMT -5
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Post by Great on Mar 9, 2019 15:40:15 GMT -5
hey, stand tall and be proud you are a Canadian! I'm not sure why you are so nasty and bitter towards Americans, but its ugly. My DIL's country of origin is NOT Canada. DIL attended private school in her country of origin, went on to attend a private 4 yr university, and then came to the USA on a student visa to attend a private university for an additional 2 years. My DIL's child, my grandchild, is not even a year old. Furthermore, my dear grand child will attend the same private college prep school my son attended, and will more than likely go on to a private university for higher education, just like her mom and dad did.None of us are big fans of any public education system, no matter which country. My DIL's country of origin has socialized healthcare, she has lived here long enough to be familiar with the US healthcare system. She hasn't had any problems with dealing with insurance, doctors, specialists etc. for either her personal health care or with the pediatrician.... not sure what boondoggles you are referring to. DIL always tells me the healthcare system is much better in the US. In fact she tells me people from her country of origin come to the US for surgeries and procedures rather than the fear of dying waiting on socialized healthcare and the rationing that goes on. ...and many Americans go overseas for healthcare. What's your point? It sounds like they have money, with private prep schools, etc. What's life like when you're NOT rich? I'm not bitter about America. I'm just really tired of hearing how you"re #1 and best at absolutely everything, when clearly, you're not. "eta. I have a Canadian born sister-in-law living in the US for many years, extended family still in Canada. They constantly complain how crappy the government run health care is, and through the years members of the extended family have come to the US for surgeries, testing and pay out of pocket. "
You said she was Canadian-born. You neglected to mention where she's actually from. My daughter in law is from one of the Asian countries, my sister in law is from Canada, two different people. It sounds like they have money, with private prep schools, etc. What's life like when you're NOT rich?
It's not about being rich in their cases, it's more about putting a priority on education, making sacrifices and saving towards a goal. While I don't know anyone who has traveled outside the US for healthcare, yes I know there are Americans that do seek some operations etc in other countries.
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Gardening Grandma
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:39:46 GMT -5
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Mar 9, 2019 16:38:20 GMT -5
I DO know several people who go to Mexico for healthcare. They are happy with the care and can simply pay out of pocket. My half sister flew to Germany a couple of years ago for a complicated neck surgery. Her ins would not cover it (“experimental” ) and she did not have the $30k to pay for it. It isn’t considered “experimental” in Germany.
She was happy with the care and is very happy with the results The cost was a third of what it would have been here
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