Parkland, FL school shooting

[Spellbound454]

The mass shooting figures are here if you are doubting the data.
www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
Make of them what you will.

What it does show is  the figures aren't perfect during the assault weapon ban..... but there was undoubtedly less people killed.

Its something to think about...right?

(The ban was put in place after the Cleveland Elementary School massacre, 5 children killed and 32 injured by an AK-47)

I've just totted it up in my head because I can't find the calculator but make the death toll

84-93   144
94-03   109 ban
04-13   290
14 to now (3years 2 months) 275

Whatever else it shows...... things are horribly wrong at the moment. You won't make the figures say anything else.

surely less than the price I put on any major liberty of 10 million people.

10 million? There are 323.1 million (2016) in the US
What about the price of them feeling safe and not getting shot at in School?

Bans on "bump stocks", silencers, and high-capacity magazines I support.

As far as I know only one State (massachusetts) put a ban on them after Las Vegas...... No-one else did anything.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 16, 2018 18:15:41 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I've just totted it up in my head because I can't find the calculator but make the death toll

84-93   144
94-03   109 ban
04-13   290
14 to now (3years 2 months) 275

Use a calculator, and count only deaths by assault weapons affected by the ban. Fortunately, MoJo provides this data.

[Spellbound454]

I don't have a calculator ...but I'm fairly numerate ...those figures wont be far off and you can see what the trends are.

ooooh there are loads more graphs if you fancy being bamboozled.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 16, 2018 18:12:42 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Feb 16, 2018 17:42:25 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

...

... You are being asked to comment about the death of the child star (complications due to diabetes) by the reporter. You then have to face her parents and the group of 200, who ostensibly blame you (your unwillingness to ban vending machines) for the death of the child. What do you say to the reporter? "I will comment after meeting the parents." What do you say to the parents and the 200? See the following.

"It isn't that true the products sold in the vending machines (chips, candy bars, etc.) are enticing, addictive, and easily accessible to people of all ages. Children from age 3-18 are enticed to buy junk food, leading to obesity, junk food addiction, diabetes, and sometimes even death. The same is true for adults.  And if they are that easily sucked in, they deserve to die.

My firm belief, backed up by a few compelling studies, that banning all junk food vending machines in the city won't reduce the number of child deaths due to diabetes at all. I don't care you don't want elevated coin slots, warning labels, more education about the dangers of junk food, or any number of other stopgap measures. I don't care you want the machines gone, and although I have the power to make it happen, it isn't going to happen.

I am firmly ideologically opposed to the ban. I don't want your fellow 1M citizens deprived of their liberty to purchase goodies out of vending machines for sake of saving no lives at all. The benefits are nowhere near sufficient to justify the costs. If the problem is going to be fixed, you parents and supervisors are going to have to be more vigilant in monitoring, educating, and policing your and other children in your care."

"did I say it the way you wanted me to say it?"

The studies concern the ban being effective, not ineffective.

As for the rest, you're clearly not being serious. It's my own fault for believing you're engaging a hypothetical in good faith. You've proven time and again you're not worthy, and I keep blundering right into it. As usual, thanks for nothing.

A safe, restful weekend to one and all. I'm off for dinner with the wife.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 16, 2018 18:26:42 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

I don't have a calculator ...but I'm fairly numerate ...those figures wont be far off and you can see what the trends are.

Let's suppose the 144 pre-ban and 109 para-ban are all due to assault weapons, and that the difference is entirely attributable to the ban.

That's a difference of 144 - 109 = 35 / 10 years = 3.5 deaths per year prevented--roughly a third as many Americans die from taking "selfies" in a given year--through a ban impacting 10 million AW-owners.

Q.E.D.

[billisonboard]

Feb 16, 2018 18:28:56 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

... You've proven time and again you're not worthy, and I keep blundering right into it. As usual, thanks for nothing.

A safe, restful weekend to one and all. I'm off for dinner with the wife.

I make a very poor fly to your spider, I will readily admit that. Enjoy your dinner.

[Spellbound454]

So start a new thread on selfie deaths

This one is about mass shootings.

[OldCoyote]

Let me point out the the so called "ban" was not a ban at all.

You could still buy assault rifles and high capacity magazines!!

It cost a little more!

[NancysSummerSip]

Feb 14, 2018 20:36:02 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

Feb 14, 2018 18:26:56 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The price we pay for the rights of the Second Amendment.

The price we pay for misunderstanding the Second Amendment and having a love of guns and a paranoid NRA with lots of money to bribe officials. We are the only country with this problem. 18 school shootings so far this year. I don't need an AR-15 and multiple clips to hunt or protect myself.

I have been saying this for a long time. No one needs to own a weapon of mass calamity, like an AR-15 or an AK-47. And until these are out of the hands of the average consumer, your kids will be the most vulnerable and likely targets, because they are least likely or able to defend themselves and can easily be found in crowd situations where there is no room to run and hide.

And as for the sympathy of your government officials? That's a load of crap. Their recent statements sounded as genuine as cardboard. As long as they are in the back pocket of the gun lobby, your children are simply collateral damage.

FWIW, Parkland is my part of the country. And it's really, really nice. All very upper class, no slums or bad neighborhoods there. If this school is not safe, nothing is. We don't need prayers, we need the people with the most to lose to tear down the doors of our elected officials and find out what they are going to do to stop this. I do not want to hear "This is not the time to discuss gun control" again. Ever. It wasn't time after Virginia Tech, or Sandy Hook or any of the other shootings. When is it time? Maybe when the bodies of the children of congressmen start littering the playground? Until it really hits home for some of them, they will ignore the issue, and your kids will be next.

[ken a.k.a OMK]

Can you believe this, a politician here is having a gun raffle tonight and the main prize is an AR-15. It's sold out. That's the screwed up mentality we have aided by the NRA.   

[thyme4change]

Feb 17, 2018 19:00:40 GMT -5 NancysSummerSip said:

Feb 14, 2018 20:36:02 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

The price we pay for misunderstanding the Second Amendment and having a love of guns and a paranoid NRA with lots of money to bribe officials. We are the only country with this problem. 18 school shootings so far this year. I don't need an AR-15 and multiple clips to hunt or protect myself.

I have been saying this for a long time. No one needs to own a weapon of mass calamity, like an AR-15 or an AK-47. And until these are out of the hands of the average consumer, your kids will be the most vulnerable and likely targets, because they are least likely or able to defend themselves and can easily be found in crowd situations where there is no room to run and hide.

And as for the sympathy of your government officials? That's a load of crap. Their recent statements sounded as genuine as cardboard. As long as they are in the back pocket of the gun lobby, your children are simply collateral damage.

FWIW, Parkland is my part of the country. And it's really, really nice. All very upper class, no slums or bad neighborhoods there. If this school is not safe, nothing is. We don't need prayers, we need the people with the most to lose to tear down the doors of our elected officials and find out what they are going to do to stop this. I do not want to hear "This is not the time to discuss gun control" again. Ever. It wasn't time after Virginia Tech, or Sandy Hook or any of the other shootings. When is it time? Maybe when the bodies of the children of congressmen start littering the playground? Until it really hits home for some of them, they will ignore the issue, and your kids will be next.

I think James Brady was pro-gun until he was shot and significantly damaged. I guess the only way for some to care about this issue is to experience the tragedy first hand.

We went over to my son's school. They recently built a new building and it is beautiful. All the classrooms have a glass wall that can be reconfigured. They have all these open areas that can be used for various things. The teachers were telling us creative ways they have been using the unusual space. My son's reaction to us liking the design was "It would suck in an active shooter situation." And he is correct.

[Virgil Showlion]

For those blaming the NRA for the politicians' attitudes, you're putting the cart before the horse.

The GOP is firmly ideologically opposed to gun control, and would be so with or without campaign contributions from the NRA. The NRA supports Republicans because the Republican stance on gun control aligns with NRA interests. If you have two candidates running, one who shares your ideology, the other who doesn't, you spend dearly to keep the former in power.

This makes the NRA partly responsible for keeping the GOP in power, but not for the politicians' attitudes toward gun control. If you think GOP lawmakers don't genuinely believe gun freedom is preferable to gun control, you're deceiving yourself.

It works the same way for Democrats and Big Labour.

Just a reality check.

[kadee79]

Feb 18, 2018 8:52:56 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

For those blaming the NRA for the politicians' attitudes, you're putting the cart before the horse.

The GOP is firmly ideologically opposed to gun control, and would be so with or without campaign contributions from the NRA. The NRA supports Republicans because the Republican stance on gun control aligns with NRA interests. If you have two candidates running, one who shares your ideology, the other who doesn't, you spend dearly to keep the former in power.

This makes the NRA partly responsible for keeping the GOP in power, but not for the politicians' attitudes toward gun control. If you think GOP lawmakers don't genuinely believe gun freedom is preferable to gun control, you're deceiving yourself.

It works the same way for Democrats and Big Labour.

Just a reality check.

However, "IF" some weren't getting LARGE contributions from the NRA (which wants NO restrictions), they might actually consider some common sense rules/regs/laws for gun ownership.  Then again, some likely wouldn't no matter if they get $$ or not.  But that will all change if someone in their family gets killed in one of these shootings....just like other attitudes have changed on other issues when it hits at home or close to home!

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 18, 2018 9:37:40 GMT -5 kadee79 said:

Then again, some likely wouldn't no matter if they get $$ or not.  But that will all change if someone in their family gets killed in one of these shootings....just like other attitudes have changed on other issues when it hits at home or close to home!

When a small town citizen wins a mega lottery jackpot, lotto ticket sales in that town skyrocket for a while.

This doesn't make buying a lottery ticket a good idea.

It's also worth noting some of the parents of children slain in this latest attack, even in the midst of the "GOP killed these children; NRA killed these children; Republican voters killed these children; you killed your children" onslaught, are still professing support for the party and Pres. Trump.

This is incomprehensible to gun control proponents. That even among the families affected by the violence, less than a week after suffering a traumatic loss, some are still firm enough in their principles to accept their children's deaths as anomalous, and one of the many costs of liberty in an evil world. I guarantee you it's not because they didn't dearly love their children.

[dezii]

Feb 17, 2018 19:43:23 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

Can you believe this, a politician here is having a gun raffle tonight and the main prize is an AR-15. It's sold out. That's the screwed up mentality we have aided by the NRA.   

Sick.....can u post a link....

[ken a.k.a OMK]

My local news.

www.wbaltv.com/article/candidates-guncash-bingo-event-draws-ire-on-social-media/18216273

[OldCoyote]

I have posted this before, I am posting this again,

What is your solution?? ban the AR 15?  Ban bump stocks?  Ban semi auto pistols, rifles?  Ban ammo?

What are you going to do with the 300 million estimated guns that are already out there? 

Form a new Federal agency that it's sole purpose is to go confiscate guns and ammo??

How is that going to work,, I mean ATF has already tried that at Waco,,, You think that would be a good policy nationwide?

What is your solution?

[ken a.k.a OMK]

The 1994 federal assault gun ban didn't collect any existing weapons but the mass shootings were way down. We can control sales without taking back guns. IMO current owners aren't the problem. It's the guy who gets angry and buys one days or months before the killing spree. So yes a ban would work. The same with gun stocks and specific ammo. All only have one purpose, kill as many people in a short amount of time. Is someone going to grab their AR-15 from under the bed for protection? Really! A hand gun provides protection and convenience. 

[OldCoyote]

Why did mass shooting go down during that period?
You could still buy any of those things,  All that happened was they stopped the sale of new manufactured products.
If was already made you could still buy it.
I bought several hi cap magazines during that time, It cost more is all,, All of that was still available.  Example, even since they have ban manufacture, I can buy a machine gun today if I wanted! legally!
My guess is that someone is playing games with the numbers,  

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

I have no idea if anyone has mentioned it before on this thread but in Florida there is a 3 day waiting period to purchase a handgun. There is NO WAITING PERIOD to purchase a AR-15.  

I am sorry, that is just effed up.

[Gardening Grandma]

For years I’ve supported common sense laws re guns. Laws that are similar to training and licensing in order to drive a car,  The  NRA has opposed even the teeniest improvement every step of the way.
The US is the ONLY developed nation that routinely has mass killings. In schools yet. Why is that?

I’ve come to the conclusion that the only solution to stopping this insanity is to say, “Fuck this. Repeal the 2nd ammendment”.  

[Spellbound454]

It cost more is all,, All of that was still available.

Out of the price range of an unstable teenager? Perhaps price is the key...just a guess.

What are you going to do with the 300 million estimated guns that are already out there?

We have gun amnesties, at a local level, just to get weapons out of circulation. Its not always the owner who hands in the gun... but others who may not want it in the house.

I'll agree the US is awash with weapons..... but at least you are having the discussion. Maybe it will make people think that buying their kids weapons may not be such a good idea.

As for banning weapons...it is my understanding that different states have different rules..........so it works in some places

[Spellbound454]

and one of the many costs of liberty in an evil world.

I can assure you that the rest of the World has the same Liberty that the US does....... without the School massacres.
So it isn't a price you have to pay for the price of Liberty at all.... and its not something you can do nothing about.

[billisonboard]

Feb 18, 2018 13:32:32 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

...

I’ve come to the conclusion that the only solution to stopping this insanity is to say, “Fuck this. Repeal the 2nd ammendment”.

It is not simply repealing of the 2nd Amendment, but going through the process of repealing it that we need to have happen.

[Deleted]

I would make anything besides handguns and hunting rifles illegal for private citizens and give everyone until x date to turn in anything besides them. There wouldn’t be mass door to door searching after that you would simply be in violation of the law if you are found to be in possession of them after the turn in date.

It won’t happen though, we as a country have decided the current level of mass shootings is perfectly acceptable. Sure, folks in congress will break out the thoughts and prayers to convince a few people they actually care, but they clearly don’t. I wonder what the rate would have to go to before something is done to stop it, 1 a day? 10 a day?

[thyme4change]

Feb 18, 2018 13:32:32 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

For years I’ve supported common sense laws re guns. Laws that are similar to training and licensing in order to drive a car,  The  NRA has opposed even the teeniest improvement every step of the way.
The US is the ONLY developed nation that routinely has mass killings. In schools yet. Why is that?
 

The latest excuse conservatives are spouting is that it is because we don't discipline our children.

I think they had to get away from the mental illness excuse, because they didn't want to fund any programs to fix that. So, they are just going to blame parents and wash their hands of the whole thing.

Makes me want to barf.

[tbop77]

Feb 18, 2018 13:19:21 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

I have no idea if anyone has mentioned it before on this thread but in Florida there is a 3 day waiting period to purchase a handgun. There is NO WAITING PERIOD to purchase a AR-15.  

I am sorry, that is just effed up.

Did I hear correctly that you have to be 21 to buy a handgun in FL, 18 to buy an AR-215?  

[thyme4change]

Feb 18, 2018 16:49:00 GMT -5 tbop77 said:

Feb 18, 2018 13:19:21 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

I have no idea if anyone has mentioned it before on this thread but in Florida there is a 3 day waiting period to purchase a handgun. There is NO WAITING PERIOD to purchase a AR-15.  

I am sorry, that is just effed up.

Did I hear correctly that you have to be 21 to buy a handgun in FL, 18 to buy an AR-215?  

I don't know, but I do know you have to be 21 to buy a beer, but only 18 to buy an AR-15.

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

Feb 18, 2018 16:49:00 GMT -5 tbop77 said:

Feb 18, 2018 13:19:21 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

I have no idea if anyone has mentioned it before on this thread but in Florida there is a 3 day waiting period to purchase a handgun. There is NO WAITING PERIOD to purchase a AR-15.  

I am sorry, that is just effed up.

Did I hear correctly that you have to be 21 to buy a handgun in FL, 18 to buy an AR-215?  

See excerpts below and link:

Florida gun laws do not necessitate the the registration of shotguns, rifles, or handguns. Also, there is no required Florida gun permit to purchase firearms. Under Florida gun laws, individuals that classify as eligible to purchase and possess firearms must be no less than 18 years of age. Though it is illegal for a minor to purchase or possess a firearm, the exception is that a minor may do so only with the permission of the parent or legal guardian.

There is no required permit to carry shotguns or rifles under Florida law on gun. However, those wishing to carry handguns must apply for a license or permit to do so. To carry a concealed handgun, one must apply for a license to the Department of Agriculture. The requirements of an eligible applicant are that the individual must be at least 21 years of age, a legal U.S. resident, not a convicted felon, has not been convicted of a crime in the past three years under misdemeanor, felony, or domestic violence statutes, and can provide for adequate and appropriate reasons to carry a concealed weapon.

gun.laws.com/state-gun-laws/florida-gun-laws

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

Feb 18, 2018 16:49:00 GMT -5 tbop77 said:

Feb 18, 2018 13:19:21 GMT -5 Cheesy FL-Vol said:

I have no idea if anyone has mentioned it before on this thread but in Florida there is a 3 day waiting period to purchase a handgun. There is NO WAITING PERIOD to purchase a AR-15.  

I am sorry, that is just effed up.

Did I hear correctly that you have to be 21 to buy a handgun in FL, 18 to buy an AR-215?  

Additional info:

Florida has a three-day waiting period for handgun purchases. But anyone without a felony record, domestic abuse conviction, or a handful of other exceptions — such as a commitment to a mental institution — can walk into a gun store, wait a few minutes to clear a background check, and walk out with an AR-15 -style rifle, magazines and ammunition.



Under federal law, you also must be 21 to buy a handgun from a firearms dealer. But 18-year-olds can buy semiautomatic rifles.

www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/us/ar15-mass-shootings-guns.html