Parkland, FL school shooting

[Green Eyed Lady]

For which I thank you and accept them in the manner they are intended. 

[chiver78]

Feb 15, 2018 19:31:38 GMT -5 steff said:

Feb 15, 2018 19:28:46 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

GEL, I think you're deliberately missing the point being made by a number of posters, where the loudest "thoughts and prayers" are offered as a false salve by those that COULD be making legislative changes to the policies we have now. 

The ones that offer "thoughts and prayers" the most are also the ones who pocket the most money from the NRA.   Marco Rubio $3 million last year alone.  

exactly. this is from an opinion piece from last fall, but the content is still relevant. this list is only Senators, but there's plenty to be had for the House as well. 

1. John McCain (AZ) 
“Cindy & I are praying for the victims of the terrible #LasVegasShooting & their families.”
$7,740,521 FROM THE N.R.A.

2. Richard Burr (NC)
“My heart is with the people of Las Vegas and their first responders today. This morning’s tragic violence has absolutely no place here in America.”
$6,986,620 FROM THE N.R.A.

3. Roy Blunt (MO)
“Saddened by the tragic loss of life in #LasVegas. My thoughts are with all of the families affected by this horrific attack.”
$4,551,146 FROM THE N.R.A.

4. Thom Tillis NC)
“Susan and I send our deepest condolences and prayers to the families of the victims of this horrific and senseless tragedy in Las Vegas.”
$4,418,012 FROM THE N.R.A.

5. Cory Gardner (CO)
“My family and I are praying for the families of those injured and killed in Las Vegas last night.”
$3,879,064 FROM THE N.R.A.

6. Marco Rubio  (FL)
“I’m praying for all the victims, their families, and our first responders in the #LasVegas #MandalayBay shooting.”
$3,303,355 FROM THE N.R.A.

7. Joni Ernst (IA)
“My prayers are with all of the victims in Las Vegas, and their loved ones affected by this senseless act of violence.”
$3,124,273 FROM THE N.R.A.

8. Rob Portman (OH)
“Jane & I mourn the loss of innocent lives in this horrific attack in Las Vegas last night. We are praying for those taken from us, their families & all those injured in this attack.”
$3,061,941 FROM THE N.R.A.

9. Todd Young (IN)
“We must offer our full support to the victims and their families as our nation mourns.”
$2,896,732 FROM THE N.R.A.

10. Bill Cassidy (LA)
“Following closely the horrendous act of violence in Las Vegas. Our prayers are with those who were injured, killed and their families.”
$2,861,047 FROM THE N.R.A.
 

[Spellbound454]

The statement isn't insulting

Its insulting to the intelligence for others to think that it can be made right..... by a few lyrical platitudes and "thoughts and prayers" with about as much sincerity as "have a nice day"
Is not OK for children to be killed in this way. These people don't need condolences....they need action....and a list of things which are going to happen now.

[steff]

Feb 15, 2018 19:38:30 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Feb 15, 2018 19:31:38 GMT -5 steff said:

The ones that offer "thoughts and prayers" the most are also the ones who pocket the most money from the NRA.   Marco Rubio $3 million last year alone.  

exactly. this is from an opinion piece from last fall, but the content is still relevant. this list is only Senators, but there's plenty to be had for the House as well. 

1.
John McCain
(AZ) 
“Cindy & I are praying for the victims of the terrible #LasVegasShooting & their families.”

$7,740,521
FROM THE N.R.A.


2.
Richard Burr
(NC)
“My heart is with the people of Las Vegas and their first responders today. This morning’s tragic violence has absolutely no place here in America.”

$6,986,620
FROM THE N.R.A.


3.
Roy Blunt
(MO)
“Saddened by the tragic loss of life in #LasVegas. My thoughts are with all of the families affected by this horrific attack.”

$4,551,146
FROM THE N.R.A.


4.
Thom Tillis
  (NC)
“Susan and I send our deepest condolences and prayers to the families of the victims of this horrific and senseless tragedy in Las Vegas.”

$4,418,012
FROM THE N.R.A.


5.
 Cory Gardner
(CO)

“My family and I are praying for the families of those injured and killed in Las Vegas last night.”

$3,879,064
FROM THE N.R.A.


6.
Marco Rubio
  (FL)
“I’m praying for all the victims, their families, and our first responders in the #LasVegas #MandalayBay shooting.”

$3,303,355
 FROM THE N.R.A.


7.
Joni Ernst
(IA)
“My prayers are with all of the victims in Las Vegas, and their loved ones affected by this senseless act of violence.”

$3,124,273
FROM THE N.R.A.


8.
Rob Portman
(OH)
“Jane & I mourn the loss of innocent lives in this horrific attack in Las Vegas last night. We are praying for those taken from us, their families & all those injured in this attack.”

$3,061,941
FROM THE N.R.A.


9.
Todd Young
(IN)
“We must offer our full support to the victims and their families as our nation mourns.”

$2,896,732
FROM THE N.R.A.


10.
Bill Cassidy
(LA)
“Following closely the horrendous act of violence in Las Vegas. Our prayers are with those who were injured, killed and their families.”

$2,861,047
FROM THE N.R.A.

 

and they are the same ones who do NOTHING but offer "thoughts & prayers" and tell us that it's too soon to talk about it.   Well if we can't talk about this school shooting yet, is it time to talk about Vegas then?   

I saw someone say that the students should have done more, thrown their backpacks or desks at the shooter.   Since it's too soon to talk about them, can someone tell us what the Vegas victims should have done?   Thrown their beers 30 stories up? 

The FACT is that the ones in Congress that offer thoughts & prayers do NOTHING else to fix the problems.  And that is the entire point. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

All you are doing, Chiver, is digging yourself in deeper into this nonsense. You might want to stop while you are ahead. Not one person there said that's ALL they are doing. A lot of people don't think the NRA is responsible for what people do. I'm one of them.  The issue is much deeper than guns - guns people are going to get if they want them - no matter what. You can deny that till you are blue in the face and it's still going to be true. Maybe those people feel their efforts are better spent in actually treating the people with the issues. Maybe they feel their efforts are better spent on addressing the horrific lack of mental health care in this country.  Maybe they know, like I'm pretty sure of, that more guns laws aren't going to stop anything. I don't know. I just know that nobody said that praying is all they are doing. 

Of course the NRA is going to donate to people who think - like they think - that guns aren't the issue.  I don't agree with that totally in that I think it's a multi-faceted issue with several factors that need to be addressed and the ability of people with known mental health issues obtaining guns is one of them.  Maybe these people think that trying to make laws keeping the guns out of the hands of those people (which won't work) is less effective than actually trying to treat the mental health issue.

You can keep trying to distract from the point, but it's not going to work. 

[chiver78]

okay, then please point out where anyone in that list has offered up legislation to help prevent any of these recent shooters from obtaining their weapons. or, where any of them has supported anyone else's legislation to do the same. go ahead, I'll wait. 

until you admit to yourself that none of these politicians soaking in the money from the NRA give a shit about any of these victims other than in how they appear in soundbites to the voters, you're never going to get it. 

[steff]

Thoughts and prayers is ALL that Congress is doing.  They are the ones that could make the laws & keep kids safe.   But that would go against what the NRA wants and if we know anything by now, it's that the GOP does whatever the NRA wants so they can keep the checks coming in.   

[weltschmerz]

No, heartfelt "thoughts and prayers" are not all the NRA is doing. They're also encouraging people to give guns as Valentines Day gifts for their sweeties.

After all, it's evident that the solution to the rampant gun violence in the US is more guns.

nypost.com/2018/02/15/nra-pulls-valentines-day-gun-tweet-after-florida-school-shooting/

[ken a.k.a OMK]

IMHO I think people offering prayers first is because they need time to evaluate a situation and see how they can help. Politicians seem to not come back to the issue though.  

[Green Eyed Lady]

Feb 15, 2018 19:48:42 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

okay, then please point out where anyone in that list has offered up legislation to help prevent any of these recent shooters from obtaining their weapons. or, where any of them has supported anyone else's legislation to do the same. go ahead, I'll wait. 

until you admit to yourself that none of these politicians soaking in the money from the NRA give a shit about any of these victims other than in how they appear in soundbites to the voters, you're never going to get it. 

I don't think I'm the one who doesn't get it.  I don't know about who has offered up what legislation.  I probably wouldn't either at this point because I think the legislation that needs to be offered, first and foremost, has nothing to do with guns.  After we address the most important issues - yes - then we start on the other.  The fact that you think more legislation would stop any of this is as ridiculous to me as prayer is ridiculous to you.

I don't really think gun laws are all you want to see.  I think you know more has to be done - especially in the area of available and affordable mental heath care.  You are a smart woman.  You know these problems are real.  Can you also at least try to see that people who are praying know it isn't the only answer and that more needs to be done?

This is one of the reasons we are where we are now.  People think others don't "get it" because they don't agree with them.  I'll say it again...how'd that work out for you in the last election?  Learn from mistakes.  Perhaps trying to think beyond our single-mindedness might be a step in the right direction. 

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 15, 2018 12:13:07 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

You say school shootings are a proverbial drop in the bucket, and aren't significant enough to justify change. But attacks by ISIS or terrorists on American soil are also a proverbial drop in the bucket, but that didn't stop Trump from trying to enact a ban on Muslims.

Was that a wise policy decision or not?

Violent crime by illegal immigrants is also a proverbial drop in the bucket, but that's not stopping Trump from trying to enact a wall.

Violent crime isn't a primary reason Americans resent illegal immigration, but indeed it features prominently in Pres. Trump's campaign.

Is he appealing to reason or not?

So what makes one proverbial drop in the bucket more important than another?

You tell me. I've never held up any of them as a basis for insisting something "NEEDS" to be done.

You've just made the world's most compelling argument for why spinning tragedy into policy is a terrible idea.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 15, 2018 19:35:04 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Feb 15, 2018 19:09:21 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

If you're not willing to answer the questions, I have no interest in your criticisms of the analogy.

Hence, with due respect: If you're going answer them, answer them, and I'll address your criticisms later. If not, find somebody else's time to waste.

I would suggest that the one wasting everyone's time with this is not me, but if you manage to get a dozen responses I will reconsider.     

I'll be on pins and needles.

[chiver78]

I give up. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

Feb 15, 2018 19:31:22 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

seriously guys, posts are disappearing. can it. 

-chiver mod

Yes. And I find it hilarious that you left your post implying I need you as "personal backup" but deleted my post where I laughed at the thought of you thinking I need you to back me up. I can understand why that embarrassed you, but it's kind of stupid to leave yours and delete mine.

[ken a.k.a OMK]

"Guns don't kill, people do" says the NRA. Yes people with guns. We once had a ban on AR-15 type mass people killing guns. Congress let it expire. The NRA calls it "Americas gun" and it is good for hunting, self protection and sport. So someone breaks into my house and I grab my AR-15 from under the bed for protection? I hunt with 30 round clips? The NRA threatens politicians who don't support their agenda.

[weltschmerz]

Feb 15, 2018 19:53:12 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

No, heartfelt "thoughts and prayers" are not all the NRA is doing. They're also encouraging people to give guns as Valentines Day gifts for their sweeties.

After all, it's evident that the solution to the rampant gun violence in the US is more guns.

nypost.com/2018/02/15/nra-pulls-valentines-day-gun-tweet-after-florida-school-shooting/

It's tantamount with solving the opioid crisis by flooding the streets with more opioids.

[chiver78]

GEL, everything I moved was a complaint about modding, and it was moved to the appropriately-named thread for complaints about mods. feel free to take a look for yourself, nothing has been deleted. if you have anything else to complain about as far as that goes, please do so over there. I'll be moving anything here over there as well. you can also feel free to PM moon. that's never changed. 

enjoy your night. 

[ken a.k.a OMK]

Violent crime isn't a primary reason Americans resent illegal immigration, but indeed it features prominently in Pres. Trump's campaign.



Is he appealing to reason or not?

He's promoting hate and fear. He rallied the white supremacists. He said to rough up dissenters at his love fests. He said lock Hillary up. The man has no morals and does not follow Christian values, something I believe you understand.

[billisonboard]

Feb 15, 2018 19:21:06 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 15, 2018 17:54:23 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Banning teacher and childcare worker ignorance (by requiring properly documented education) of the warning signs of diabetes ketoacidosis will reduce child deaths due to diabetes without curing child diabetes. Type 1 diabetes in children

Next.

Curbing, not curing.

Calling education a "ban on ignorance" is a stretch and a half, and even if I give it to you, unless ignorance is sold from vending machines, I stand by my claim of equivalence.

Are you going to answer the questions?

What is your definition of "curbing"?

curbing

v. The act of knocking someone out and then placing thier open mouth on a curb so that when the back of the skull is repeatedly stopmed on all of their teeth get broken. www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=curbing

[steff]

7 of the 10 deadliest shootings in modern US history happened after the assault weapons ban was allowed to expire in 2004.   This is not a coincidence. 

A commentator on Fox News today said that the problem is not having "superior firepower" against mass shooters.   It's mind boggling that is where he went.  I guess kids need to carry an RPG to school.  What could possibly go wrong? 

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 15, 2018 20:15:41 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

Violent crime isn't a primary reason Americans resent illegal immigration, but indeed it features prominently in Pres. Trump's campaign.

Is he appealing to reason or not?

He's promoting hate and fear. He rallied the white supremacists. He said to rough up dissenters at his love fests. He said lock Hillary up. The man has no morals and does not follow Christian values, something I believe you understand.

The relevant point here is that he's leveraged the slaying of Kate Steinle and others into political capital for building his wall, which you and I both agree is an appeal to emotion over reason, and something he has absolutely no business doing. This, in spite of the fact that I'm not altogether convinced the wall is a bad idea (that is, there exist reasonable arguments in favour of its construction).

We also know that whenever an American is killed by an illegal immigrant in a high-profile way in the days to come, Pres. Trump will march out the same emotional appeal as many times as there are killings.

The same situation applies to gun control in the US. Reasonable arguments exist in favour of gun control, but prevention of mass school shootings is not one of them. Such events are the equivalent of terrorist attacks or horrific crimes by illegal immigrants: tragic, powerful, deeply disturbing to the national psyche, able to be wielded as mighty weapons in ideological warfare, but not a sound basis for policy.

Not now. Not when the next mass shooting occurs, or the one after that.

As many times as these shootings occur, the facts haven't changed, the balance between freedom and security hasn't changed, opponents of gun control (or Muslim bans, or the border wall) have no reason to revisit their conclusions, and their response to those making demands will be "We sympathize with the families of victims, but no."  Which is precisely what it should be.

[steff]

18 school shootings THIS YEAR already.  

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 15, 2018 20:35:43 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Feb 15, 2018 19:21:06 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Curbing, not curing.

Calling education a "ban on ignorance" is a stretch and a half, and even if I give it to you, unless ignorance is sold from vending machines, I stand by my claim of equivalence.

Are you going to answer the questions?

What is your definition of "curbing"?

curbing

v. The act of knocking someone out and then placing thier open mouth on a curb so that when the back of the skull is repeatedly stopmed on all of their teeth get broken. www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=curbing

Let's just say I wouldn't recommend going on TV and saying, "We expect this diet will cure prostate cancer," when you intended on saying, "We expect this diet will curb prostate cancer."

I'm clinging to hope here that there's going to be answers to my questions now that I've addressed your concerns. Am I going to get them, are you just yanking my chain?

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 15, 2018 20:58:24 GMT -5 steff said:

18 school shootings THIS YEAR already.  

ymam.proboards.com/post/2810176/thread

[simser]

I just found out that the nephew of one of the women I work with was shot in this school. He’s still alive, but I guess critical? She wasn’t there today, but that’s what the office manager said.

[thyme4change]

I saw a list of indicators, and an expert suggesting that there should be a law where someone can do an emergency petition based on known behaviors that have led to violence in the past. If that petition is approved, all guns would be removed from the home of that individual immediately and the person would have to get help and can later appeal the petition.

I don't like the generic "mental health" restriction idea, as I believe it would discourage people from getting a diagnosis and would make things worse. But showing that several very specific behaviors are being exhibited by one person, and having an idea on how that person could get their guns back after a period of time and treatment, we would have a chance.

If that law were in place, it is just a matter of education and for institutions to create policies on how to identify valid threats.

That warning list is true for mass shootings, as well as some domestic shootings, so something like that could reduce a wide variety of gunshot injuries.

[Tennesseer]

Feb 15, 2018 21:15:07 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I saw a list of indicators, and an expert suggesting that there should be a law where someone can do an emergency petition based on known behaviors that have led to violence in the past. If that petition is approved, all guns would be removed from the home of that individual immediately and the person would have to get help and can later appeal the petition.

I don't like the generic "mental health" restriction idea, as I believe it would discourage people from getting a diagnosis and would make things worse. But showing that several very specific behaviors are being exhibited by one person, and having an idea on how that person could get their guns back after a period of time and treatment, we would have a chance.

If that law were in place, it is just a matter of education and for institutions to create policies on how to identify valid threats.

That warning list is true for mass shootings, as well as some domestic shootings, so something like that could reduce a wide variety of gunshot injuries.

Thyme-by chance, can you please post the list of indicators or provide a link. I would like to read it.

Thanks.

[thyme4change]

Unfortunately, I didn't keep the link where I saw it, and I struggle with mobile technology, but I found a similar list. If you Google "Roger Depue Red Flags" there is a link from University of New Orleans. It is a PDF, not html. There are probably several similar lists, and the original one i saw was a little shorter, but it is directional.

I'm considering discussing the list with my son, and encouraging him to tell school officials if he sees anyone like that. He is going to go to a big high school that has diversity in backgrounds - economic and racial. I'll be sure to tell him to keep an eye on those white guys - they be crazy! (Me and my kid are the definition of white people.)

[hurley1980]

Feb 15, 2018 19:56:50 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 15, 2018 12:13:07 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

You say school shootings are a proverbial drop in the bucket, and aren't significant enough to justify change. But attacks by ISIS or terrorists on American soil are also a proverbial drop in the bucket, but that didn't stop Trump from trying to enact a ban on Muslims.

Was that a wise policy decision or not?

Violent crime by illegal immigrants is also a proverbial drop in the bucket, but that's not stopping Trump from trying to enact a wall.

Violent crime isn't a primary reason Americans resent illegal immigration, but indeed it features prominently in Pres. Trump's campaign.

Is he appealing to reason or not?

So what makes one proverbial drop in the bucket more important than another?

You tell me. I've never held up any of them as a basis for insisting something "NEEDS" to be done.

You've just made the world's most compelling argument for why spinning tragedy into policy is a terrible idea.

1) I don't think it was a wise decision.  MHO. Most of the ISIS related shootings happened by an American citizen who happened to be Muslim.  The ban isn't going to change that.

2) He may be in his head, but from what I have heard, the majority of the voting public doesn't agree with his reason.  Its not going to solve the problem...there are other ways to get into the country than by walking or driving over the border.

3) Fair enough. Just wanted your opinion.

I'm just pointing out that all three are issues that cause death, even though the amount is small in the greater picture.  But only 2 of the three are being focused on by this administration.  The one that doesn't include "people different than us", and is committed primarily by white men, is met with "thoughts and prayers" and no real resolution.  I wonder why that is? 

[Virgil Showlion]

Thyme's reference is included in the latter part of this whitepaper:

www.unomaha.edu/public-safety/_doc/faculty-staff-brt-guide.pdf

Most of the warning signs seem fairly general. For example:

• Violent fantasy content
  
• Anger problems
• Fascination with weapons and accoutrements
• Loner
• Suicidal ideation

I say "general" because all of the above would have applied to me or my friends at various points during out teenage years. We whiled away the time playing violent video games. I tended to be a loner. Some of my friends entertained themselves by shooting squirrels and throwing Molotov cocktails (which I witnessed on occasion). Some contemplated suicide.

If me and my small group of friends (none of who went on to kill anyone, incidentally) got into these kinds of things, I have a hard time believing the same wouldn't be true for tens or even hundreds of millions of other people going through teenagehood.

Other signs are more rarified:

• Homicidal ideation
• Stalking
• Imitation of other murderers

These I can't claim to have seen among myself or friends. I don't know how useful they are as predictors of mass shootings, and I'm deeply skeptical that using them as a basis to confiscate weapons will prove effective, but I suppose it's worth a try,