Are we seeing early signs of our next recession?

[Value Buy]

Aug 29, 2018 16:41:06 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I thought Ford was dying again (or are they not a major player)?  Is Ford going down good for the economy?  


What about housing?  Pending sales have dropped again.    Even while prices go up?   The two areas in which I watch real estate prices went to full blown bubble in June.   Sale prices are stupidly high (think 450K in very populated areas with median household incomes of 60K) even rents are stupidly high for the median income levels.    That sez "bad news" to me...  

What about inflation?   Due to the "booming" economy,  prices on consumer goods are going up. 

But what really bothers me is why haven't wages gone up?   If unemployment is so low why aren't wages rising?     
www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

Yeah, I got a nice "bonus" last year - but that was a one time thing and got eaten up by raising property taxes and some raising expenses.  Yes, I did just get a raise (which was a good thing - because I have higher property taxes going forward forever) but it's not going very far (property taxes, other costs that went up).  The only way I would have more discretionary spending is if I changed how much I save/invest OR if I removed something I'm already spending discretionary spending on...  That's the same boat I've been in for the last 2 or so years.    That, to me, makes it feel like I do not have more money to spend.    How about you all?  Got more $$ to spend on discretionary spending than you did in the recent past? 

I can't be the only person in  this predicament.  

I haven't looked at consumer debt in a while.... how's that doing?  

Aren't those kind of signs of things aren't quite right? 
 
 

Ford's big problem is they were the only major car company to not develop an electric vehicle, but then, they are selling $80,000 pick ups.....
housing prices, well, you say in a bubble.....isn't that better that they are slowing down?
worker's wages, our area, the starting rate has grown frolm under $8 and hour to $9.25 to $12 an hour for entry level, non skilled jobs.
Higher property taxes were going up well before this year, while everyone was drowning.......
if you have a 401-k or IRA, the gains are rather dramatic again this year, as long as you are not in bonds or a money market fund.

[busymom]

DS & I visited another major shopping mall yesterday, one that we haven't been inside in at least 2 years.  Again, there are a bunch of empty storefronts.  This isn't an area that is on the decline, in fact they're building a new restaurant about a block from the mall.  This bull market cannot last forever, and I'm still convinced I'm seeing cracks in the economy.  We'll see what's happening in a year (or two) from now.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Aug 29, 2018 16:22:13 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Update......GDP was upped from 4.1% estimated to 4.2% today.
Unemployment still low, economy firing on all cylinders, Mexico confirming they are close to a trade deal, and Canada jumping in this morning saying they are working hard to come to an agreement by maybe, even tomorrow to the Deocrat's dismay!
Oh, the DOW back to February high, NASDAQ and S&P 500 hitting new highs

Looking like it's time to bring on that depression we talked about a couple years ago, VB. As the American (North) economy is primed for that big BOOM!
Stay my friend. #MoreWinning

A new set of Chinese economic figures adds up to yet another headache for statisticians

[Opti]

Aug 29, 2018 17:11:30 GMT -5 busymom said:

DS & I visited another major shopping mall yesterday, one that we haven't been inside in at least 2 years.  Again, there are a bunch of empty storefronts.  This isn't an area that is on the decline, in fact they're building a new restaurant about a block from the mall.  This bull market cannot last forever, and I'm still convinced I'm seeing cracks in the economy.  We'll see what's happening in a year (or two) from now.

We are in what I call reset, right now, in my part of NJ. Here, there appears to be a big cycle of build, redo and repair. It reminds me of what sometimes happens in a big Mall when they raise their rents higher than most want to pay.

Also, KRE has a significant amount of signs around here. Not sure what it means right now, but KRE is Kushner Real Estate.

Note: Grocery stores do reset usually the day before the new sales flyer takes effect. This can be annoying and disconcerting if you are like me and sometimes grocery shop on your way home. As an example, ShopRite's grocery flyer runs Sun thru Sat. They will be doing reset *if I am shopping there* Saturday night

or sometimes even at 4 to 5PM Sat in prep for Sun.

[Opti]

Aug 30, 2018 0:42:43 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Aug 29, 2018 16:22:13 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Update......GDP was upped from 4.1% estimated to 4.2% today.
Unemployment still low, economy firing on all cylinders, Mexico confirming they are close to a trade deal, and Canada jumping in this morning saying they are working hard to come to an agreement by maybe, even tomorrow to the Deocrat's dismay!
Oh, the DOW back to February high, NASDAQ and S&P 500 hitting new highs

Looking like it's time to bring on that depression we talked about a couple years ago, VB. As the American (North) economy is primed for that big BOOM!
Stay my friend. #MoreWinning

A new set of Chinese economic figures adds up to yet another headache for statisticians

Define a couple years ago? There have been major chain deaths, etc. Here in NJ. Recently it has been merger season in the pharmacy and health care sector.

What happens in your part of the country may not be applicable to other parts. There will be somewhat of a boom, but I don't know if its sustainable. We are in the buy American part of the year that Trump instituited. Looking at local construction, I think that includes tax breaks for businesses that use American businesses, as I am seeing the oddball Caterpillar Tractor construction equipment and the vendors used in that small space are much more varied than they were even in 2014 to 2016.

Its unclear to me whether foreign countries and companies are now here to help save the US or take advantage of the current financial chaos. I saw a Japanese/ possibly Finnish company partnership on a building that used to be something else entirely. I wouldn't bet on anything at this time. I think by November or December things might be clearer ... I hope.

Oh, I live very near Trump (Bedminster golf course) and Kushner Real Estate country. FWIW.

[Tiny]

Aug 29, 2018 16:54:25 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Aug 29, 2018 16:41:06 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I thought Ford was dying again (or are they not a major player)?  Is Ford going down good for the economy?  


What about housing?  Pending sales have dropped again.    Even while prices go up?   The two areas in which I watch real estate prices went to full blown bubble in June.   Sale prices are stupidly high (think 450K in very populated areas with median household incomes of 60K) even rents are stupidly high for the median income levels.    That sez "bad news" to me...  

What about inflation?   Due to the "booming" economy,  prices on consumer goods are going up. 

But what really bothers me is why haven't wages gone up?   If unemployment is so low why aren't wages rising?     
www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

Yeah, I got a nice "bonus" last year - but that was a one time thing and got eaten up by raising property taxes and some raising expenses.  Yes, I did just get a raise (which was a good thing - because I have higher property taxes going forward forever) but it's not going very far (property taxes, other costs that went up).  The only way I would have more discretionary spending is if I changed how much I save/invest OR if I removed something I'm already spending discretionary spending on...  That's the same boat I've been in for the last 2 or so years.    That, to me, makes it feel like I do not have more money to spend.    How about you all?  Got more $$ to spend on discretionary spending than you did in the recent past? 

I can't be the only person in  this predicament.  

I haven't looked at consumer debt in a while.... how's that doing?  

Aren't those kind of signs of things aren't quite right? 
 
 

Ford's big problem is they were the only major car company to not develop an electric vehicle, but then, they are selling $80,000 pick ups.....
housing prices, well, you say in a bubble.....isn't that better that they are slowing down?
worker's wages, our area, the starting rate has grown frolm under $8 and hour to $9.25 to $12 an hour for entry level, non skilled jobs.
Higher property taxes were going up well before this year, while everyone was drowning.......
if you have a 401-k or IRA, the gains are rather dramatic again this year, as long as you are not in bonds or a money market fund.

A housing bubble is bad because they are unsustainable. When it pops, the people who recently bought overpriced houses, and maybe stretched to do it (because housing was hot! and had to get in on it!) suddenly have negative equity in their homes. I suspect that's a bad thing. I'm not expecting a "housing market crash' like 2008... but I do think real estate will contribute to the next recession (people with too much debt and not enough income).

As for a 401(k) or any investment with a lot of exposure to equities - when the market starts dropping you may see your big gains eaten away.     

Yes, property taxes always go up.   Mine went down when the market crashed.  (I kept appealing my taxes and had house appraisals to back it up starting in 2009 when local prices were at the bottom).   I've managed to manage my property taxes having them go up $500 or $600 a year as the property values came back.   In 2017 my property taxes jumped 2k (my 2nd bill was 2K higher than expected).     I can handle the small ups and downs.   That extra 2K was surprising and unexpected.  
The property taxes on my non-local rental also go up each year - but nothing like a 2K jump.    

TBTH:  I don't think the market will plunge like it did in 2008.  I think we're in for slow walk back over the course of months/year - which will slowly eat away a investments.  

[Deleted]

One of our 2 large local employers has been laying off and moving jobs elsewhere.  I went to a city meeting this week and the whole itinerary was about affordable housing, which has been voted the number one issue for the city by residents.  The city's wages suck and housing (both renting and buying) is becoming unaffordable to many long time residents.  

On a personal level we are fine, but that was because we budgeted with a good bit of discretionary money, so we can absorb the increase in our expenses.  We were in the small group of tax payers that had our taxes raised with the "tax cut", our property taxes have gone up $1,600 this year, our medical insurance went up again, and things like groceries and gas have gone up.  We have cut back on our discretionary spending, but looking at the consumer spending number, we must be one of the few.

[tyfighter3]

You know pooks, there are States you could move to that doesn't have all of those Tax issues. I moved out of Il 2 years ago and haven't been happier.

[tyfighter3]

Some people on this thread have been talking about the big Malls that have empty stores in them. that's been going on for about the last 10 years. It's called Amazon. lol

[Deleted]

Aug 30, 2018 14:30:21 GMT -5 tyfighter3 said:

You know pooks, there are States you could move to that doesn't have all of those Tax issues. I moved out of Il 2 years ago and haven't been happier.

My daughter is a junior in high school, so we won't move until she finishes high school at the earliest. 

[Opti]

Ti4ny,

How big are your property taxes and what is the value of the property?

[Opti]

Aug 30, 2018 12:32:49 GMT -5 @pooks said:

One of our 2 large local employers has been laying off and moving jobs elsewhere.  I went to a city meeting this week and the whole itinerary was about affordable housing, which has been voted the number one issue for the city by residents.  The city's wages suck and housing (both renting and buying) is becoming unaffordable to many long time residents.  

On a personal level we are fine, but that was because we budgeted with a good bit of discretionary money, so we can absorb the increase in our expenses.  We were in the small group of tax payers that had our taxes raised with the "tax cut", our property taxes have gone up $1,600 this year, our medical insurance went up again, and things like groceries and gas have gone up.  We have cut back on our discretionary spending, but looking at the consumer spending number, we must be one of the few.

I'd be curious to know where you are if you are willing to share. You can PM me if you prefer.

[Opti]

Aug 30, 2018 14:35:47 GMT -5 tyfighter3 said:

Some people on this thread have been talking about the big Malls that have empty stores in them. that's been going on for about the last 10 years. It's called Amazon. lol

Maybe...

Malls always rearrange based on population and rents. I've been in NJ now about 33 yrs. A lifetime of experience compared to some board members who are just in their 30s or late 20s.

A good portion of people still prefer to see & touch things instead of a blind order.

www.barrons.com/articles/mall-reits-whats-up-new-jersey-1505741736

Link might have issues. You can research Short Hills Mall in NJ and others like Jersey Gardens. Both pull in out of state visitors on a regular basis.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Aug 30, 2018 2:37:04 GMT -5 Opti said:

Aug 30, 2018 0:42:43 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Looking like it's time to bring on that depression we talked about a couple years ago, VB. As the American (North) economy is primed for that big BOOM!
Stay my friend. #MoreWinning

A new set of Chinese economic figures adds up to yet another headache for statisticians

Define a couple years ago? There have been major chain deaths, etc. Here in NJ. Recently it has been merger season in the pharmacy and health care sector.

What happens in your part of the country may not be applicable to other parts. There will be somewhat of a boom, but I don't know if its sustainable. We are in the buy American part of the year that Trump instituited. Looking at local construction, I think that includes tax breaks for businesses that use American businesses, as I am seeing the oddball Caterpillar Tractor construction equipment and the vendors used in that small space are much more varied than they were even in 2014 to 2016.

Its unclear to me whether foreign countries and companies are now here to help save the US or take advantage of the current financial chaos. I saw a Japanese/ possibly Finnish company partnership on a building that used to be something else entirely. I wouldn't bet on anything at this time. I think by November or December things might be clearer ... I hope.

Oh, I live very near Trump (Bedminster golf course) and Kushner Real Estate country. FWIW.

Opt, it was probably 2.5-3 years ago now that I think of it.

 The conversation VB and I were having is how rampant inflation wasn't the underlying threat - as was the story going around at the time‎. The main underlying threat to the world economy was actually deflation, and how 500k Mujahideen fighters were located throughout the Balkans. It still is; which is exactly what all this Turkey talk is about. Only now the American economy is insulated against the initial shock - very similar to how it was during the Asian Crisis of the late 90's - and the trends that are lined up to occur after this debt event can be likened to a BOOM!!! (Energy, steel, etc, etc)

The status quo is changing and I would liken these days to the last days of the League of Nations. So, while I agree with you economic trends can very much be regional; I'm not referring to these microtrends. I'm talking about how in Sweden Far Right Political parties are surging, part of a trend which I have been documenting and warning about as far back as late 2013.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Aug 30, 2018 14:35:47 GMT -5 tyfighter3 said:

Some people on this thread have been talking about the big Malls that have empty stores in them. that's been going on for about the last 10 years. It's called Amazon. lol

and Big Box areas and a change in shopping patterns:



While there are still malls that are doing well,no doubt. Some see opportunity, where others are seeing despair: What retail apocalypse? Brookfield bets malls have a future with $15-billion GGP takeover

Which is something I have been working on since we talked about the next big short in late 2016.

[Deleted]

Aug 30, 2018 16:34:32 GMT -5 Opti said:

Aug 30, 2018 12:32:49 GMT -5 @pooks said:

One of our 2 large local employers has been laying off and moving jobs elsewhere.  I went to a city meeting this week and the whole itinerary was about affordable housing, which has been voted the number one issue for the city by residents.  The city's wages suck and housing (both renting and buying) is becoming unaffordable to many long time residents.  

On a personal level we are fine, but that was because we budgeted with a good bit of discretionary money, so we can absorb the increase in our expenses.  We were in the small group of tax payers that had our taxes raised with the "tax cut", our property taxes have gone up $1,600 this year, our medical insurance went up again, and things like groceries and gas have gone up.  We have cut back on our discretionary spending, but looking at the consumer spending number, we must be one of the few.

I'd be curious to know where you are if you are willing to share. You can PM me if you prefer.

We moved to Boise, ID 4 years ago.  

[thyme4change]

I just walked around the fancy schmacy shopping areas in Scottsdale. Most stores were populated. I am not sure how many people actually shopping there. I wasn't alone, but I certainly wasn't fighting crowds.

[busymom]

It's back to school shopping time here, as the schools open up again next Tuesday.  Although you'll find stores that sell the basics pretty busy this week, like Target or Kohl's, I was surprised how little traffic there was at this mall.  And, it's one of those malls that doesn't have near enough parking during the Christmas season.  And, yes, it's in a major suburban area.  Just doesn't feel right to me.  

[Opti]

Aug 30, 2018 20:54:10 GMT -5 busymom said:

It's back to school shopping time here, as the schools open up again next Tuesday.  Although you'll find stores that sell the basics pretty busy this week, like Target or Kohl's, I was surprised how little traffic there was at this mall.  And, it's one of those malls that doesn't have near enough parking during the Christmas season.  And, yes, it's in a major suburban area.  Just doesn't feel right to me.  

Did everyone panic buy last week and are on vacation now?

Also, I don't think the Malls are where the big back to school shopping happens. Around here it will be Bed, Bath & Beyond and Staples with lots of traffic plus Target, Walgreens, etc. Walmart has a huge section here too. The local Bed, Bath & Beyond looked somewhat decimated in the front back to school section. They even had checklists for about 7 or so NJ colleges.

[Opti]

Aug 30, 2018 18:30:17 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

Aug 30, 2018 14:35:47 GMT -5 tyfighter3 said:

Some people on this thread have been talking about the big Malls that have empty stores in them. that's been going on for about the last 10 years. It's called Amazon. lol

and Big Box areas and a change in shopping patterns:



While there are still malls that are doing well,no doubt. Some see opportunity, where others are seeing despair: What retail apocalypse? Brookfield bets malls have a future with $15-billion GGP takeover

Which is something I have been working on since we talked about the next big short in late 2016.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Malls, like real estate are affected by local conditions. The Short Hills Mall in NJ clocks in as one of the most profitable malls in the country.

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Aug 30, 2018 23:10:05 GMT -5 Opti said:

Aug 30, 2018 18:30:17 GMT -5 Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger said:

and Big Box areas and a change in shopping patterns:



While there are still malls that are doing well,no doubt. Some see opportunity, where others are seeing despair: What retail apocalypse? Brookfield bets malls have a future with $15-billion GGP takeover

Which is something I have been working on since we talked about the next big short in late 2016.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Malls, like real estate are affected by local conditions. The Short Hills Mall in NJ clocks in as one of the most profitable malls in the country.

To an extent; however, unless you haven't been paying attention you should have noticed in many "news" stories there was apparently a retail apocalypse. Malls were dead. So there are also larger shopping trends at play. For instance, busy mom hasn't been to said mall in two years. Probably not the only one. In a good neighrhood for ppl spending money.. Which is why Brookfield is spending $15 Billion, they see how to make $$$ off the strong economy.

[Value Buy]

For everyone talking about the death of the malls, and this means a recession is on the horizon........please remember when the malls became the "in place to be". What area of the economy was hurt by the malls?
The shopping districts in the downtown areas across the country. Was there less shopping and money being spent? No. It moved from spot A to spot B.
The same thing is happening today. It has moved from spot B to spot C, ergo, Amazon, even the remaining department store chains, and everyone's phone, or laptop.
I imagine as the largest ever free spending group of citizens, the babyboomers, have started to age out, we are no longer shopping in the stores for very much of anything. We already own it or do not need new suits, dresses, or even LU Lemon products. Our shoes last longer. Even if we even bother wearing them anymore. We have shutdown the free spending habits we had for fifty years.
Even the stores that are left, everyone shops the specialty shops that are out there rather than Sears Penney's etc. Where do the young women shop for makeup these days? Certainly not the usual old department stores.....same for jewelry, watches, clothing and about anything else these days. 
It does not mean a recession is coming, but our shopping habits are changing for the better, or maybe the worse, but like buggy whips, strong horses, telephone operators and elevator doormen, values change and the world moves on to something, hopefuly better and more efficient. We do not to have to like this, but we that recognize it, can profit from the new economy. Unless Generation X'ers and millenials decide to go to the mall, it is a new economy out there. Even grocery shopping has changed in the last three years. Many people barely set foot in a store. They order it, and it is either delivered ot you drive to the pick up spot and have it loaded up for you.....Guess what, in downtown NYC, busy people have been doing it for generations

[Value Buy]

Aug 30, 2018 20:54:10 GMT -5 busymom said:

It's back to school shopping time here, as the schools open up again next Tuesday.  Although you'll find stores that sell the basics pretty busy this week, like Target or Kohl's, I was surprised how little traffic there was at this mall.  And, it's one of those malls that doesn't have near enough parking during the Christmas season.  And, yes, it's in a major suburban area.  Just doesn't feel right to me.  

Have you seen the latest television advertisement for "back to school" school suppy shopping?
Mom wakes up the kid, says we have to go shopping for your school supplies. The kid raises his head types into the laptop, the website, his school, class year he is in, hits buy, and says to mom, done, and goes back to sleep.

[Value Buy]

On December of 2017, CNBC posted this article.

www.cnbc.com/2017/12/05/workers-financial-satisfaction-plummets-worries-increase.html

Today CNBC reported worker satisfaction at highest level since 2005
What changed in nine months?
It is the fast expanding jobs recovery and the economic expansion that comes with it.........
(no link as of now, to the CNBC report this morning)

[busymom]

Aug 31, 2018 7:32:26 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Aug 30, 2018 20:54:10 GMT -5 busymom said:

It's back to school shopping time here, as the schools open up again next Tuesday.  Although you'll find stores that sell the basics pretty busy this week, like Target or Kohl's, I was surprised how little traffic there was at this mall.  And, it's one of those malls that doesn't have near enough parking during the Christmas season.  And, yes, it's in a major suburban area.  Just doesn't feel right to me.  

Have you seen the latest television advertisement for "back to school" school suppy shopping?
Mom wakes up the kid, says we have to go shopping for your school supplies. The kid raises his head types into the laptop, the website, his school, class year he is in, hits buy, and says to mom, done, and goes back to sleep.

   No, I haven't seen that commercial.  Sounds easier than the process we dealt with when the kids were little.  However, you'd still need to take them shopping to get new tennis shoes that fit, etc.

   By the way, the mall I went to is one of the best known for crazy-type traffic during the Christmas season, which is why I tend to avoid going there (no, it's NOT close to my house).  Since my past work experience includes retail, both the sales floor, and the back office, I was simply stunned at how quiet the mall was the day DS & I drove over there.  There is NO WAY a mall anchor should have adequate parking during the back-to-school shopping season.  People are supposed to be tripping over each other, while dragging their kids through the mall.  

[Opti]

This is not your back to school shopping season or even perhaps one you remember in the last 5 to 10 years. How things are done have changed, so don't let one personal sample blind you to reality. Shopping panic season was early here in NJ. It was last week, not this one. One thing to note is many places you order online, you can have shipped to the store which makes it easier for the consumer to do returns instead of shipping it to the house. Those orders have priority in customer service, i.e. new pickups, over other things.

Three stores that have that-
Kohl's
Walmart
Macy's

I do my best to deal with actual RL, instead of gut feel unless gut feel is based on many samples and much history. I don't remember where Ahamburger is, but I do know he is older than me and not from as cosmopolitan area as I am. I know with certainty that some articles are sponsored by the National Realtor's Association and the like to drive or measure consumer behavior. I base my opinions on looking at RL results.

For example, the NJ Star Ledger used to publish every year sometime in fall the winners and losers in real estate. Primarily homes, but some stuff on commercial as well. They also had a forecast, or forecast sections based on some real data and some on what industry leaders believed might happen. I find the latter interesting, but would never bet on it.

[Tiny]

Aug 30, 2018 16:32:57 GMT -5 Opti said:

Ti4ny,

How big are your property taxes and what is the value of the property?

I have a 80 yo brick, 1200sq 2bed/1 bath house.  It has a full unfinished basement (because of the placement of heating ducts and a low-ish ceiling you could "refinish" about 1/2 of it (unless everyone is under 6 foot tall then you could use all of it).   It has a brick 1 car garage (literally 1 car - not 1 car and some extra space for storage).   The bath and kitchen are original to 1947.  The only thing new in the kitchen is the fridge and the microwave oven and the LED bulbs I put in the vintage light fixtures.      

So, Zillow sez my house is worth 205K.   I say it's worth 150K (the last appraisal I have is from 2016 - and it was 130K - used to set up a HELOC). 

My taxes went from 4200 (tax year 2016) to 6400 (tax year 2017).      I don't have my tax bill in front of me - so I can't tell you the amount that was used to calculate my taxes.     I was expecting my 2017 taxes to go up - the tax for the school district went up - but I was expecting that to only add $300 and I was expecting another $500 or so for increased house value.    What really change is that the "value" of my property went up (dramatically) in the eyes of the Accessor.    

An issue is when trying to compare my house to other similar houses (without an actual appraisal) - the 'similar' houses all have updated bathrooms and updated kitchens (think granite and Stainless steel) and have had walls removed to create an "open floor" plan.  My house is exactly like it was in 1947 - down to the linoleum on the kitchen floor to the stove to the bathtub/fixtures and finished basements. 

I don't mind paying taxes.  What gets me is that EVERY YEAR I have to make the case that my house is not worth how much the Assessor imagines it's worth.   EVERY time they re-assess the value - it doesn't go up an increment - it automatically goes up to the maximum for the type of property.   That fries my hide. 

[Tiny]

Aug 30, 2018 14:30:21 GMT -5 tyfighter3 said:

You know pooks, there are States you could move to that doesn't have all of those Tax issues. I moved out of Il 2 years ago and haven't been happier.

The thing is, places with lower property taxes usually have other higher taxes to compensate - or they have crappy services (like schools).     Oddly enough some of my family members crow about how "low the property taxes in Florida are" but then they bitch about the taxes on everything else (and the crappy school system).   

I guess what I'm saying is you have to look at the Big Picture and then decide if you thinks it's fair or not. 

[tyfighter3]

Fl. also doesn't have a State income Tax.

[Value Buy]

The growing economy just hit another new multi-monthly high for it's length of time.
And everyone on the liberal democratic party is still claiming that recession is here
Dow today-new all time high
Nasdaq today-new all time high
S&P500 today-new all time high.
Everyone now check your six month balance for the year on all your mutual funds, IRA'S, 401-K'S now and tell me how you feel about the economy.