Joel Osteen is not walking the walk.

[swamp]

His 16,000 capacity church in Houston is not open to people needed help.  

Jerk. 

nypost.com/2017/08/28/pastor-osteen-shuts-church-amid-flooding-crisis/

buzz.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/28/people-are-criticizing-and-defending-joel-osteen-amid-houston-deluge/
Read the comments on this one. 

[Deleted]

Asshole.

[busymom]

I would hope his organization would be doing something.  At the very least, if the property remains above water, they should be using it as a staging area to help people. 

[busymom]

According to Raw Story, that may be changing:

www.rawstory.com/2017/08/prosperity-gospel-preacher-joel-osteen-to-open-megachurch-to-hurricane-harvey-refugees-after-public-shaming/

[Tennesseer]

Surely, Joel can squeeze a family or two in his church when services are not in session.  

[Pants]

Aug 28, 2017 21:12:51 GMT -5 swamp said:

His 16,000 capacity church in Houston is not open to people needed help.  

Jerk. 

nypost.com/2017/08/28/pastor-osteen-shuts-church-amid-flooding-crisis/

buzz.blog.ajc.com/2017/08/28/people-are-criticizing-and-defending-joel-osteen-amid-houston-deluge/
Read the comments on this one. 

Shocking. I'm shocked. So shocking. 

Asshole.

[Tennesseer]

Mega churches are all about the personality of its minister.  Seems to have little to do with faith and humility.

[Opti]

Honestly I'm not sure what I'd do in his situation because of the logistics. Sure there's lot of space in the building, but where are the cots, food, and water going to come from? Do they have city water still working? Is that expected to last or not?

I lived through hurricane Floyd which had massive flooding and cut off our access to city water almost immediately. While I was extremely blessed that I was on high ground, I was basically pinned for a few days with the flooding around me unable to get supplies. I had no city water for 7 to 10 days. The latter is super important because working toilets can become non-working toilets very quickly when you have no water to flush them with.

Officials at least have put disaster planning into effect for the convention center. It unfortunately will go bad very quickly for amateurs because of food and water. Like the below.

Churches serving as unofficial shelters can quickly find themselves overwhelmed by demand and logistics. After several members tweeted Sunday that First Baptist Church North Houston had opened its doors to stranded residents, the building ended up with 300 evacuees, not enough food, and no working toilets. “It’s frustrating, but I’m just relying on God to fulfill his promises to us,” youth pastor David McDougle told The Washington Post. “We’re all praying.”

www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/august/houston-churches-fight-flooding-hurricane-harvey-cancels-se.html

[zibazinski]

I'm thinking the thought is the liability and the damage total strangers can cause.

[weltschmerz]

Aug 29, 2017 2:02:34 GMT -5 Opti said:

Honestly I'm not sure what I'd do in his situation because of the logistics. Sure there's lot of space in the building, but where are the cots, food, and water going to come from? Do they have city water still working? Is that expected to last or not?

I lived through hurricane Floyd which had massive flooding and cut off our access to city water almost immediately. While I was extremely blessed that I was on high ground, I was basically pinned for a few days with the flooding around me unable to get supplies. I had no city water for 7 to 10 days. The latter is super important because working toilets can become non-working toilets very quickly when you have no water to flush them with.

Officials at least have put disaster planning into effect for the convention center. It unfortunately will go bad very quickly for amateurs because of food and water. Like the below.

Churches serving as unofficial shelters can quickly find themselves overwhelmed by demand and logistics. After several members tweeted Sunday that First Baptist Church North Houston had opened its doors to stranded residents, the building ended up with 300 evacuees, not enough food, and no working toilets. “It’s frustrating, but I’m just relying on God to fulfill his promises to us,” youth pastor David McDougle told The Washington Post. “We’re all praying.”

www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/august/houston-churches-fight-flooding-hurricane-harvey-cancels-se.html

Funny how the convention centers, schools and community centers aren't freaking out over this.
They just want to provide the victims with a safe dry space. Some don't have food or water either, but have flung open their doors nonetheless.

[Deleted]

Damn socialist institutions... don't they know faith based organizations are all the charity we need...

[Shooby]

  I think this is a fair criticism.  He has the ability to mobilize 10's of thousands of people to render aid and help.  However, in a flood, the first order of business is to stay put.  Too many people out driving around or being outside is a danger.  So, saying he "closed the church" to keep people out, I am not sure if that is accurate.  In a flood, yes, you are going to close the building and batten down the hatches before a flood.  Duh.
  However, I would expect his church to offer aid and comfort in the coming days/weeks/months.

[Deleted]

Aug 29, 2017 3:10:44 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Funny how the convention centers, schools and community centers aren't freaking out over this.
They just want to provide the victims with a safe dry space. Some don't have food or water either, but have flung open their doors nonetheless.

First, Optimist4Life, thanks for your points on this. I'm a practicing Christian but not a fan of mega-churches and the first thing that hit me was the huge logistical nightmare of taking care of 50,000 homeless people. Yes, you can open your doors and let them in but then what? They need bathrooms. Women need sanitary products. Their babies have wet and poopy diapers. A few women are days from giving birth. People on oxygen are running out and people on life-saving prescriptions have only a week's supply left. Soooo... the church people are supposed to respond with. "Hey, stop complaining- you got a roof over your head"?

If I remember, things got pretty ugly in the New Orleans Superdome after Katrina. The quantity a school or community center can hold is somewhat manageable. A building with 50,000 would be a nightmare, especially if no government support materialized, or it was inadequate.  And then you have to get them out.  Some people will have lost everything and their houses are unliveable so you need the resources and expertise to help re-house them.

What would make sense is some emergency planning before such events. Maybe mega-churches would be open to committing their spaces as emergency shelters if they knew they'd have appropriate support from the government (possibly with help from their own members, although I'm not sure who can find disposable diapers in an open store in Houston right now, and who among them can handle hungry crowds surging forward when food is brought in).

In this case I don't blame Osteen.

Aug 28, 2017 21:14:10 GMT -5 oped said:

Asshole.

And how many strangers did YOU take in during the last natural disaster?  Did you house any families after Katrina when they were dispersed all over the country?  (I didn't, but then I didn't use that word to describe Osteen for making the same decision.)

[Lizard Queen]

Just to get it straight, the church holds about 16,000, not 50,000. That's what I read, anyway. As for the rest, I don't know. Maybe they weren't prepared to help people, but why weren't they? Shouldn't that be the reason the church is there--to help people in need?

[Deleted]

Osteen is pretty much always an asshole.

[tractor]

I think this is a case of "don't believe everything you read". The truth is starting to come out, I think most of the hate started with a rumor on Facebook..

[Deleted]

Aug 29, 2017 6:49:49 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Shouldn't that be the reason the church is there--to help people in need?

The primary purpose of a church is to preach the gospel.  If a church doesn't do that it's just another eleemosynary institution.  Most of them do plenty to support the community, too, but their outreach ministries are structured and built around resources they have available (people, expertise, money).  I spend nearly every Saturday morning ruining my nails, weeding a garden that supplies produce to the local community kitchen, aided by kids doing community service as part of their probation.  Today I'm working the blood drive at church.  We're perpetually collecting supplies for back-to-school, for snacks the teachers can give hungry kids, for household goods people can't buy with EBT (food stamp) cards.  Our sanctuary holds 300 (sadly, attendance is nowhere near that) and we have 7 toilet stalls and a small kitchen.  Could we take in, say, 200 people and feed and house them for weeks and help them find new places to live?  No.  We don't have a lot of money because many of my fellow members are struggling financially and we certainly don't have the expertise to manage such an undertaking.

 

[Deleted]

So preach the gospel into a megaphone... but don't live it, don't demonstrate it.

[taz157]

Aug 29, 2017 6:50:18 GMT -5 oped said:

Osteen is pretty much always an asshole.

How so?

[Deleted]

You might do those things Athena, but Osteen does not. I really despise that man.

[zibazinski]

Joel is in the business of Joel. But his followers choose to follow. I hope he helps out later but he's under no obligation to. One of the reasons I left my old church was they headed in a direction that wasn't in line with my feelings. It's not a cult where people are forced so there's not much else to say.

[wvugurl26]

You don't want to house people okay then be clear about what you are doing. Because I don't see them digging in their own deep pockets. They just want to be a collection point for donations. How about you buy some stuff! Churches like this are exactly what turn people off from organized religion. This guy is disgusting.

[zibazinski]

Aug 29, 2017 7:58:25 GMT -5 wvugurl26 said:

You don't want to house people okay then be clear about what you are doing. Because I don't see them digging in their own deep pockets. They just want to be a collection point for donations. How about you buy some stuff! Churches like this are exactly what turn people off from organized religion. This guy is disgusting.

I agree it look at how packed it is? Unreal.

[Deleted]

This may kick this thread to the religion forum but it's kind of already there.

Osteen is walking the walk, the deity the bible describes seemed pretty down with a massive flood and not lifting a finger, isn't Osteen just following its example? Or is that a part of the book that should be ignored?

[Opti]

Aug 29, 2017 7:23:43 GMT -5 midjd said:

Now I'm really not understanding why the federal government provides a tax exemption for organizations whose primary purpose is NOT charitable.

I don't expect local smaller churches to house dozens of refugees, but Osteen doesn't have much of an excuse IMO. And isn't the argument that government is inefficient and inept and needs to step back and let churches and charities handle these things? If Joel Osteen can't handle it with his financial resources and congregation, who can?

Point 1 - the exemption for churches is to practice religion if they do other things fine, but they were never granted the exemption based on what they do. Its similar to non profit groups. They promote a cause which may or may be helpful to their community, and as long as they following the financial model of non profit they are good.

Osteen and Lakewood could handle it if they had prepared for it before the flood occurred. Since it appears even the city planning was shelter in place, even the city is unprepared to deal with widespread lack of clean water and flooding that will recede slower than they are used to. The argument involving churches as beacons of light was Bushes. Not sure even the biggest Baptist churches that supported W would buy into your and others belief that they should provide disaster relief during a disaster they are involved and did not prepare for.

It takes lots of planning and staffing for emergency planning. The rehab facility I work at has that although I don't know how long for example the food stock is planned to last. Everything, extra cots, food, and staffing has to be in place before the emergency occurs to insure a successful navigation of the current weather emergency. Thinking on it, I don't think our facility has any plans for if city water was turned off or unavailable for any length of time.

I disagree with the 10,000 points of light theory. The market is not efficient neither is church charity. Government assistance is flawed but at least usually addresses the full picture and plans.

[Opti]

Aug 29, 2017 7:58:25 GMT -5 wvugurl26 said:

You don't want to house people okay then be clear about what you are doing. Because I don't see them digging in their own deep pockets. They just want to be a collection point for donations. How about you buy some stuff! Churches like this are exactly what turn people off from organized religion. This guy is disgusting.

I'm not going to condemn him because I don't know what goes behind the scenes there and I bet no one on this board does as well.

 

The church I used to go to does very few outreach ministries. However it is a tithing church. I don't know that you could find that out easily through the website or even who the church donates to. It regularly runs fundraisers or requests for donations for various causes depending on volunteer member passions. As an outsider, you would be unaware that the funds raised in special events aren't the only $$ going to the cause. The tithe for that month usually goes there as well.

I think the outrage is emotional, not logical. How many have a background in disaster planning and know how easy it is to get supplies once flooding has occurred? In reading these posts it feels like few have any experience running a church and what the capabilities might be on a moment's notice. Looking at their website ministries it appears they are education and support group oriented. No food pantry, no thrift shop, no weekend housing of the homeless. I hope they do support work for the community after the flooding recedes.

[midjd]

Not sure even the biggest Baptist churches that supported W would buy into your and others belief that they should provide disaster relief during a disaster they are involved and did not prepare for.

Whoa, whoa, it's not "my" belief. It just seems to be the argument that comes up whenever the government is ham-handed in its response to a disaster--"big government is bad, the church can do it better." Same with food stamps, Section 8, and other needs of the poor--"not with my money, charity will take care of them."

I don't subscribe to either of those beliefs, personally... but regardless, tweeting that you're collecting donations on your website and that your church might accept displaced people "after the shelters are full" is just bad optics. 

[swasat]

Aug 29, 2017 6:40:30 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Aug 29, 2017 3:10:44 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Funny how the convention centers, schools and community centers aren't freaking out over this.
They just want to provide the victims with a safe dry space. Some don't have food or water either, but have flung open their doors nonetheless.

First, Optimist4Life, thanks for your points on this. I'm a practicing Christian but not a fan of mega-churches and the first thing that hit me was the huge logistical nightmare of taking care of 50,000 homeless people. Yes, you can open your doors and let them in but then what? They need bathrooms. Women need sanitary products. Their babies have wet and poopy diapers. A few women are days from giving birth. People on oxygen are running out and people on life-saving prescriptions have only a week's supply left. Soooo... the church people are supposed to respond with. "Hey, stop complaining- you got a roof over your head"?

If I remember, things got pretty ugly in the New Orleans Superdome after Katrina. The quantity a school or community center can hold is somewhat manageable. A building with 50,000 would be a nightmare, especially if no government support materialized, or it was inadequate.  And then you have to get them out.  Some people will have lost everything and their houses are unliveable so you need the resources and expertise to help re-house them.

What would make sense is some emergency planning before such events. Maybe mega-churches would be open to committing their spaces as emergency shelters if they knew they'd have appropriate support from the government (possibly with help from their own members, although I'm not sure who can find disposable diapers in an open store in Houston right now, and who among them can handle hungry crowds surging forward when food is brought in).

In this case I don't blame Osteen.

Aug 28, 2017 21:14:10 GMT -5 oped said:

Asshole.

And how many strangers did YOU take in during the last natural disaster?  Did you house any families after Katrina when they were dispersed all over the country?  (I didn't, but then I didn't use that word to describe Osteen for making the same decision.)

What a beautiful rant!!

And just because his church cannot handle 50,000 people its decided that they will help NONE! How awesome that there is no middle ground. Can't help 100s of people because we don't have enough capacity for 1000s! 



You can go defend Osteen as much as you want. He is an asshole of the first kind who has been only offering support through TWITTER! He could have taken in a few 100s of people. But he decided to keep his doors closed because.....no one knows the reason yet!!

And before you go attacking other posters here for not offering their homes to other disaster victims, please bear in mind that none of the posters are raking in millions of dollars from their congregation, driving BMW 7 series, travelling first class and in general milking their position. Osteen is. Hence the expectation from him.

[Opti]

A trip down memory lane because I think it might be useful. Katrina, which was worse than this, had some people moved three times. First from the New Orleans Superdome to the Astrodome in Houston and then again when Rita hit Houston. They moved them out of New Orleans quickly because of water and supply issues, and then again out of the Astrodome when Rita was impending. These buildings were used not just because of their sheer size but their layouts and capabilities. Sports arenas still used for Sports often have big open floors for where the games occurs, showers and locker rooms, and if lucky various kitchens for food. The latter is likely the week link. Lakewood has likely ripped out those showers and locker rooms and turned them into classrooms, the former game floor looks like it holds dedicated seating. Anyone know about their kitchens especially refrigerator space? Cots at Lakewood would be unlikely to be in the main floor. They'd need to be in the classrooms.

Here's a pic of the astrodome back then-

www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2015/08/17/120808/10-years-since-katrina-when-the-astrodome-was-a-mass-shelter/

[swasat]

The schools, universities and other complexes are not set up to provide disaster recover either. But that does not stop them from offering relief.

Neither does it stop other religious congregations. 

Just this year in February the Sikh Gurudwaras in California opened their doors to victims of Oroville Dam emergency.


www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Sikhs-Step-Up-Welcome-Oroville-Dam-Evacuees-in-Their-Temples-413708923.html

Members of the Sikh faith are inviting the 188,000 evacuees who were forced to leave their homes because of the damaged Oroville Dam emergency spillway to come to their temples for a nice vegetarian meal and a rest on the floor of their prayer halls.


Several temples in the surrounding Northern California area, including Sacramento, Roseville, Turlock and Tracy also publicly invited anyone in need to come to their houses of worship. All together, community estimates put the Sikh population at about 70,000 in the greater Sacramento area. And at the peak of the dam crisis on Sunday evening, two temples say they housed about 350 people fleeing from the possibility of a spillway break.



"It's just hardwired into us and our religion," Singh said. "Anytime someone needs help, we need to be there."

But its just soooooo hard for the Lakewood Church to do the same. Even with more resources, more money, more space, more everything.