grits
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Post by grits on Aug 29, 2017 16:28:39 GMT -5
I don't like Osteen but in all honesty, I have stayed many times in the hotel by the old Summit. The building itself is built up higher than the roads. The area underneath is a massive parking garage. It is fully flooded. What if the sewer system backs up like it did in the super dome? Will their insurance reimburse them for damage done to the building by evacuees? A small church near me housed Katrina evacuees for a few days. They did over $50k damage to the building. The roads near the building are so low I've often thought I wouldn't want to be there if it flooded. It's really easy to get worked up about somebody we don't like when there's a disaster out there.
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Rob Base 2.0
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Post by Rob Base 2.0 on Aug 29, 2017 16:47:52 GMT -5
Joel Osteen side of the story in case you were even curious to hear the other side of the story and for the record i am not a fan of any church, but he deserves to have his side out there.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 29, 2017 17:09:05 GMT -5
This is just me, but when I volunteer for stuff, I don't often tell anyone where I work, what church I go to, etc. Same goes for donating money, I don't give the receivers a rundown of all groups I might be affiliated with to publish in a news story. I don't either. But, I also think for these mega churches it's generally pretty obvious, and many of them are media whores and so make sure that the word gets out. Aren't we just promoting media whoring though when we say things like "I don't see any of them helping volunteer or pledge money"? It's a no-win situation. If you donate and volunteer without being a media whore, then we're going to bash you for not helping and volunteering. If you help and volunteer and tell everyone, then you're a media whore doing it all for the attention. In this particular case, with this particular stance, it seems more likely that someone simply doesn't like a group and is going to be offended regardless of their actions.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Aug 29, 2017 17:34:47 GMT -5
I vaguely remember hearing this guy's name. I wouldn't know him from a hole in the wall if I saw him. However, here is where we see the value of a community organizer. Let's see, this church holds over 16,000, but there are multiple services, so perhaps 10's of thousands of members. Some would no doubtedly need help, and others more than able to provide help. Where's the organizing? Where's the leadership? You'd think they'd be planning some relief efforts beforehand, as they knew a storm was coming.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Aug 29, 2017 19:57:51 GMT -5
I think there is far too much support in the Gospel in favor of opening a church's doors during times of need thsn not.
The Gospel calls Christians to be Christ for others. One need only ask: What Would Jesus Do? He'd fling the doors wide open and offer everything He had to others because we have nothing, are nothing, without God through whom all things are possible.
Christians cannot simply declare their faith, they must also live it. There are people from outside Houston putting themselves in harm's way, leaving their families in their own safe and secure homes, bringing their own equipment, paying their own expenses, missing work at their jobs, to selflessly help rescue folks from flooded homes. The rescuers are living their faith.
Joel Osteen would do well to follow their example.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 29, 2017 19:59:57 GMT -5
Apparently, your understanding of the gospel and mine are two different things. If the primary purpose of the church is to exhort its members to do good works, how does that make it any different from, say, Rotary International other than occupying a more expensive building and being open on Sunday. I have to admit that I'm heavily influenced by a book DS loaned me recently (The Gospel of Paul) but faith is the primary purpose. Good works follow. BTW, many of these spaces, including churches, have adequate toilets but zero showers or bathtubs and no laundry facilities. Think about that. Do schools and furniture stores and civic centers and Hindu temples have showers and laundry facilities? They threw open their doors.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Aug 29, 2017 20:03:44 GMT -5
I think there is far too much support in the Gospel in favor of opening a church's doors during times of need thsn not. The Gospel calls Christians to be Christ for others. One need only ask: What Would Jesus Do? He'd fling the doors wide open and offer everything He had to others because we have nothing, are nothing, without God through whom all things are possible. Christians cannot simply declare their faith, they must also live it. There are people from outside Houston putting themselves in harm's way, leaving their families in their own safe and secure homes, bringing their own equipment, paying their own expenses, missing work at their jobs, to selflessly help rescue folks from flooded homes. The rescuers are living their faith. Joel Osteen would do well to follow their example. But he'd get all wet and icky and mess up his hair, not to mention having to associate with people who are likely not in a position to increase his net worth. So, probably not going to happen.
I'm so happy to see so many animal welfare and rescue organizations working in Houston and rescuing abandoned and stranded animals. Those are the organizations that are getting my money. There are even groups of private citizens who have gotten together on their own and are rescuing dogs and cats and chickens and all manner of creatures. I'm guessing Mr. Osteen isn't going to see any profit in doing that, either.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Aug 29, 2017 20:18:54 GMT -5
If the primary purpose of the church is to exhort its members to do good works, how does that make it any different from, say, Rotary International other than occupying a more expensive building and being open on Sunday. I have to admit that I'm heavily influenced by a book DS loaned me recently (The Gospel of Paul) but faith is the primary purpose. Good works follow. BTW, many of these spaces, including churches, have adequate toilets but zero showers or bathtubs and no laundry facilities. Think about that. Do schools and furniture stores and civic centers and Hindu temples have showers and laundry facilities? They threw open their doors. Countless people from every economic level -- living in everything from tiny bungalows to enormous homes -- are opening their own doors and their hearts to harbor soaked, desperate, complete strangers even entire families. Many likely have limited resources -- food, clothing, beds, bathrooms -- on a good day but they share whatever they have willingly and happily. If these folks can house those in need, a church -- especially a mega church which typically houses worship space, dining rooms, gyms, classrooms, etc. -- absolutely should do so.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 29, 2017 20:20:13 GMT -5
I agree but it should be an offer not a demand.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Aug 29, 2017 20:57:56 GMT -5
Can we focus on the good being done?
J.J. Watt has past $4mil on his youcaring site that went live Sunday night. Plus he is matching (some? all? they keep passing the goal and he was going to match the original goal of like $100k).
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Aug 29, 2017 21:13:58 GMT -5
..Dozens of mosques have opened their doors to the victims.. (I doubt they are any btter equipped than Olsteen's mega church) "We are required – it is an obligation for Muslims – to help our fellow human beings regardless of whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims,” he told Middle East Eye on Tuesday." (MJ Khan, the president of the Islamic Society of Greater Houston.) www.middleeasteye.net/news/texas-muslims-come-aid-harvey-victims-865257255
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 29, 2017 21:22:25 GMT -5
The primary purpose of a church is to preach the gospel. If a church doesn't do that it's just another eleemosynary institution. Most of them do plenty to support the community, too, but their outreach ministries are structured and built around resources they have available (people, expertise, money). I spend nearly every Saturday morning ruining my nails, weeding a garden that supplies produce to the local community kitchen, aided by kids doing community service as part of their probation. Today I'm working the blood drive at church. We're perpetually collecting supplies for back-to-school, for snacks the teachers can give hungry kids, for household goods people can't buy with EBT (food stamp) cards. Our sanctuary holds 300 (sadly, attendance is nowhere near that) and we have 7 toilet stalls and a small kitchen. Could we take in, say, 200 people and feed and house them for weeks and help them find new places to live? No. We don't have a lot of money because many of my fellow members are struggling financially and we certainly don't have the expertise to manage such an undertaking. If you consider that they have a pretty substantial schedule where they actually feed people (according to the ads I just looked at), I'm guessing that there are kitchen facilities of some sort. Supporting the bathroom habits of a congregation of nearly 17,000 means that they have enough restroom facilities as those of a smaller stadium. No one is looking to support them for weeks, that is the purpose of FEMA and the Red Cross. But as a way station until they can get other help IS a reasonable expectation of a church.....and one that much smaller churches are already providing. I disagree. People are absolutely looking for them to support for weeks as FEMA etc. won't be prepared for them for quite some time. One poster mentioned its only going to be a couple days. I think that's naïve. Anyone rescued on a roof is not going back to live at home in a couple days. Many places will be condemned and the number of people displaced is going to increase, not decrease probably for at least the next 3 weeks or more.
www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/
Check out the URL, the shelters are overflowing and LA is offering up help. Lakewood church is probably going to become a mini Houston astrodome for a couple weeks.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 29, 2017 21:53:16 GMT -5
I don't like Osteen but in all honesty, I have stayed many times in the hotel by the old Summit. The building itself is built up higher than the roads. The area underneath is a massive parking garage. It is fully flooded. What if the sewer system backs up like it did in the super dome? Will their insurance reimburse them for damage done to the building by evacuees? A small church near me housed Katrina evacuees for a few days. They did over $50k damage to the building. The roads near the building are so low I've often thought I wouldn't want to be there if it flooded. It's really easy to get worked up about somebody we don't like when there's a disaster out there. How long did it take them to recover from the $50K damage? Did insurance cover most of it?
Apparently Joel Osteen did host 5000 people as a shelter back in 2001 in the old church. The Compaq center was known for flooding so only they know if those floodgates they installed did any good. I find it hard to believe there is not kitchen there, but maybe just lame inadequate kitchenettes? Yet another URL-
www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/08/29/why_the_outrage_about_joel_osteen_s_houston_megachurch_might_be_overblown.html (I believe first Baptist mentioned in the article might be one of the smaller megachurches in the Houston area. Only 6000 - 9000, if I remembered correctly.)
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 29, 2017 21:54:24 GMT -5
Can we focus on the good being done? J.J. Watt has past $4mil on his youcaring site that went live Sunday night. Plus he is matching (some? all? they keep passing the goal and he was going to match the original goal of like $100k). Who is JJ Watt?
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grits
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Post by grits on Aug 29, 2017 22:06:35 GMT -5
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grits
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Post by grits on Aug 29, 2017 22:10:43 GMT -5
I tried to edit my post, and the crazy thing deleted all of it. I said, "Instead of blasting a tv personality that some find repulsive, why don't we focus on what we the individual can do to help?".
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moneyminded
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Post by moneyminded on Aug 29, 2017 22:24:40 GMT -5
Thanks Rob Base 2.0 for the info. Changes my mind a little bit.
BUT....SHAME ON YOU...for bringing the truth into a perfectly good religion bashing thread. We are such a tolerant, welcoming, non-judgemental, and well informed with the facts, board. I wonder why we cant ever get more than about 1600 to 1700 members?
Good one! But yeah, no kidding...
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 29, 2017 22:45:06 GMT -5
I don't like Osteen but in all honesty, I have stayed many times in the hotel by the old Summit. The building itself is built up higher than the roads. The area underneath is a massive parking garage. It is fully flooded. What if the sewer system backs up like it did in the super dome? Will their insurance reimburse them for damage done to the building by evacuees? A small church near me housed Katrina evacuees for a few days. They did over $50k damage to the building. The roads near the building are so low I've often thought I wouldn't want to be there if it flooded. It's really easy to get worked up about somebody we don't like when there's a disaster out there. How long did it take them to recover from the $50K damage? Did insurance cover most of it?
Apparently Joel Osteen did host 5000 people as a shelter back in 2001 in the old church. The Compaq center was known for flooding so only they know if those floodgates they installed did any good. I find it hard to believe there is not kitchen there, but maybe just lame inadequate kitchenettes? Yet another URL-
www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/08/29/why_the_outrage_about_joel_osteen_s_houston_megachurch_might_be_overblown.html (I believe first Baptist mentioned in the article might be one of the smaller megachurches in the Houston area. Only 6000 - 9000, if I remembered correctly.)
When the rain ends, and it is about ended, outdoor kitchen setups can be installed and food prepared for anyone who sought shelter at the church. If the military can do it, so can the Red Cross or any other agency that will help with displaced individuals.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 29, 2017 22:49:57 GMT -5
Thanks Rob Base 2.0 for the info. Changes my mind a little bit. BUT....SHAME ON YOU...for bringing the truth into a perfectly good religion bashing thread. We are such a tolerant, welcoming, non-judgemental, and well informed with the facts, board. I wonder why we cant ever get more than about 1600 to 1700 members? Not so sure about that. From Rob's own link: The linked article reads like damage control.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 30, 2017 9:25:51 GMT -5
Thanks Rob Base 2.0 for the info. Changes my mind a little bit. BUT....SHAME ON YOU...for bringing the truth into a perfectly good religion bashing thread. We are such a tolerant, welcoming, non-judgemental, and well informed with the facts, board. I wonder why we cant ever get more than about 1600 to 1700 members?
Good one! But yeah, no kidding... I'm not bashing religion. I'm bashing Osteen. He's not a religious guy. He's a con man
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 30, 2017 9:30:22 GMT -5
Thanks Rob Base 2.0 for the info. Changes my mind a little bit. BUT....SHAME ON YOU...for bringing the truth into a perfectly good religion bashing thread. We are such a tolerant, welcoming, non-judgemental, and well informed with the facts, board. I wonder why we cant ever get more than about 1600 to 1700 members? Not so sure about that. From Rob's own link: The linked article reads like damage control. shhhh..... just let them have this one.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Aug 30, 2017 9:47:58 GMT -5
Thanks Rob Base 2.0 for the info. Changes my mind a little bit. BUT....SHAME ON YOU...for bringing the truth into a perfectly good religion bashing thread. We are such a tolerant, welcoming, non-judgemental, and well informed with the facts, board. I wonder why we cant ever get more than about 1600 to 1700 members? Not so sure about that. From Rob's own link: The linked article reads like damage control. I had the same impression. It definitely reads like spin.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Aug 30, 2017 9:54:31 GMT -5
Thanks Rob Base 2.0 for the info. Changes my mind a little bit. BUT....SHAME ON YOU...for bringing the truth into a perfectly good religion bashing thread. We are such a tolerant, welcoming, non-judgemental, and well informed with the facts, board. I wonder why we cant ever get more than about 1600 to 1700 members?
Good one! But yeah, no kidding... I'm not bashing religion. I'm bashing Osteen. He's not a religious guy. He's a con man Same here. No one was bashing religion, just the con man. The references to religion were examples of where the Osteen weasel's behavior compared unfavorably with the values of the religion he supposedly embraces. It was Osteen who was being pilloried, not religion.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 30, 2017 9:57:12 GMT -5
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Aug 30, 2017 9:57:26 GMT -5
Can we focus on the good being done? J.J. Watt has past $4mil on his youcaring site that went live Sunday night. Plus he is matching (some? all? they keep passing the goal and he was going to match the original goal of like $100k). Who is JJ Watt? He is the star Defensive end of the Houston Texans. Probably one of the top 5 recognizable athletes of all the Houston pro teams (James Harden being the primary other one, but name recognition for Jose Altuve and a few others is also high).
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 30, 2017 9:58:59 GMT -5
He is the star Defensive end of the Houston Texans. Probably one of the top 5 recognizable athletes of all the Houston pro teams (James Harden being the primary other one, but name recognition for Jose Altuve and a few others is also high). Thanks for the answer. I haven't had TV for years so I don't get to watch sports.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 30, 2017 11:10:38 GMT -5
I have real issues with mega churches and the money they squeeze from their flock. Victoria Osteen had a tantrum in first class a few years ago if IIRC. I decided to look up this tantrum. Was it an incident with a flight attendant which the courts and the other passengers agreed it was a verbal disagreement? I don't know if she acted badly or not, but the flight attendant said she physically threw her against the cockpit door and sued for $405,000 plus was going for 10% of her net worth in punitive damages.
abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5586434&page=1
What everyone agrees on is this: Osteen was upset about a liquid spilled on the armrest of her first-class seat. She approached flight attendants about getting it cleaned up. What happened next was open to debate.
While acknowledging that yes, there was some sort of incident on the airplane, the jury decided that it was nothing that should have ended up in court. "I don't think Sharon Brown lied, I think she just exaggerated what happened," said juror Mark Bowden. "I think it was verbal, but not physical."
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Aug 30, 2017 11:54:25 GMT -5
Honestly I'm not sure what I'd do in his situation because of the logistics. Sure there's lot of space in the building, but where are the cots, food, and water going to come from? Do they have city water still working? Is that expected to last or not? I lived through hurricane Floyd which had massive flooding and cut off our access to city water almost immediately. While I was extremely blessed that I was on high ground, I was basically pinned for a few days with the flooding around me unable to get supplies. I had no city water for 7 to 10 days. The latter is super important because working toilets can become non-working toilets very quickly when you have no water to flush them with. Officials at least have put disaster planning into effect for the convention center. It unfortunately will go bad very quickly for amateurs because of food and water. Like the below.
Churches serving as unofficial shelters can quickly find themselves overwhelmed by demand and logistics. After several members tweeted Sunday that First Baptist Church North Houston had opened its doors to stranded residents, the building ended up with 300 evacuees, not enough food, and no working toilets. “It’s frustrating, but I’m just relying on God to fulfill his promises to us,” youth pastor David McDougle told The Washington Post. “We’re all praying.” www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/august/houston-churches-fight-flooding-hurricane-harvey-cancels-se.html
Funny how the convention centers, schools and community centers aren't freaking out over this. They just want to provide the victims with a safe dry space. Some don't have food or water either, but have flung open their doors nonetheless. So have day care centers, synagogues and mosques. And FWIW, no one is passing judgement in any of these hard-hit areas as to what kind of space it is. People seem very grateful for it. I know I would be. I think Osteen is a Houston-sized hypocrite who does not want to soil his tidy church space. No services on Sunday because your church has storm refugees in it, Pastor? Oh freaking shucks. I doubt most houses of worship in the Houston area will be functioning normally this Sunday, or any Sunday in the near future. I do not doubt for a second that if Jesus was walking the earth now, He'd be working the food donation lines, or manning a rescue boat, or piloting a chopper in Houston. He would not be locking the doors of a sanctuary to keep out the needy.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 30, 2017 12:14:31 GMT -5
Funny how the convention centers, schools and community centers aren't freaking out over this. They just want to provide the victims with a safe dry space. Some don't have food or water either, but have flung open their doors nonetheless. So have day care centers, synagogues and mosques. And FWIW, no one is passing judgement in any of these hard-hit areas as to what kind of space it is. People seem very grateful for it. I know I would be. I think Osteen is a Houston-sized hypocrite who does not want to soil his tidy church space. No services on Sunday because your church has storm refugees in it, Pastor? Oh freaking shucks. I doubt most houses of worship in the Houston area will be functioning normally this Sunday, or any Sunday in the near future. I do not doubt for a second that if Jesus was walking the earth now, He'd be working the food donation lines, or manning a rescue boat, or piloting a chopper in Houston. He would not be locking the doors of a sanctuary to keep out the needy. Sounds like Jesus is a classic underachiever. If you have the power to make miracles, shouldn't you be putting it to better use than working a food donation line? Why not just turn the water into bacon and let us all eat our way out of the disaster?
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Aug 30, 2017 12:29:29 GMT -5
So have day care centers, synagogues and mosques. And FWIW, no one is passing judgement in any of these hard-hit areas as to what kind of space it is. People seem very grateful for it. I know I would be. I think Osteen is a Houston-sized hypocrite who does not want to soil his tidy church space. No services on Sunday because your church has storm refugees in it, Pastor? Oh freaking shucks. I doubt most houses of worship in the Houston area will be functioning normally this Sunday, or any Sunday in the near future. I do not doubt for a second that if Jesus was walking the earth now, He'd be working the food donation lines, or manning a rescue boat, or piloting a chopper in Houston. He would not be locking the doors of a sanctuary to keep out the needy. Sounds like Jesus is a classic underachiever. If you have the power to make miracles, shouldn't you be putting it to better use than working a food donation line? Why not just turn the water into bacon and let us all eat our way out of the disaster?
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