Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 16, 2017 8:54:47 GMT -5
I obviously don't have answers, either. I just have very little sympathy for someone who willingly chooses to take heroin that first time. No matter what anyone on here says, it is widely publicized that heroin is very addictive and hard to kick. Don't take it in the first place.
And I do know that there are a lot of people addicted to Oxy that switch to heroin. But there are also lots and lots of people that take heroin because they fall into the wrong crowd and somehow think it is a good idea. Those are the people that I lack sympathy for. I can't tell you how many local news stories I see with young kids (late teens/early 20s) dying of heroin OD. These are not kids that got hooked because of prescriptions. I just don't know what they hell they are thinking.
crehab.org/blog/addiction/what-are-the-addiction-recovery-rates-for-heroin/
I haven't done a ton of research but this article states that heroin addiction could have as little as a 20% recovery rate. It probably sounds cruel but I can't see dumping a ton of money into addicts (addicts that CHOSE to take heroin) that have such a low recovery rate. I would rather spend the money on helping the younger kids not take heroin in the first place.
But, what if this was YOUR kid that did something stupid? Earlier you were saying you wouldn't "let" a loved one kill themselves. Now you're saying the heroin addicts aren't worth trying to fix. (I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with you, just pointing out the inconsistency) It is always different when it is your child. The fact that I would spend every cent I had to try to keep her alive (that's me, Mom-Signalling again ) doesn't mean that I can't take a step back out and realize that most of heroin junkies aren't going to recover. As a taxpayer, I do not want to pay for all of the idiots out there that decided Heroin was a good idea. That doesn't mean I wouldn't spend MY money on MY child.
As noted above, that is probably naïve in thinking I could get my kid clean but it is my child. But I have also seen my aunt do just that with my idiot cousin who is 49 years old and still on heroin...spent 3 years in jail and OD several times. But that is her son and she is doing everything she can to help him.
I also think heroin is so much harder to overcome. There are a lot of people who have tried suicide or even thought about it. But with therapy, meds and support a large part of them come around (not all, obviously). That just isnt' the case with heroin. It is very hard to beat.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 9:03:23 GMT -5
I know you never know until you're there, but I'm honestly not sure I would if it was my kid. I mean, I would help as much as he was willing to work with me, but I wouldn't work harder on getting him clean than he was.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 16, 2017 9:09:55 GMT -5
I know you never know until you're there, but I'm honestly not sure I would if it was my kid. I mean, I would help as much as he was willing to work with me, but I wouldn't work harder on getting him clean than he was. it only works if they want to get clean. I've seen it with my cousin. To be fair, my aunt isn't spending a shit ton of money on him because she doesn't have it. But because he lost everything, he has government insurance and it does pay for rehab and he has been in a few times. For her it is more the emotional toll it takes on her. Everytime he goes in and gets out she truly believes he is cured. Then she watches him downspiral again and again, knowing she can't truly do anything to stop him. She is now 76 years old and I don't know how much more she can take.
I have a different opinion on mental illness (not a choice) than addiction. I do think mentally ill people can be helped but I know that heroin addicts are more likely than not going to die a junkie.
God willing I will never know about either with my daughter.
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dee27
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Post by dee27 on May 16, 2017 9:22:43 GMT -5
My aunt spent a boatload of money getting my cousin clean, too, but he was successful after multiple tries. However, he developed a serious liver disease as a result of drug and alcohol abuse.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 16, 2017 10:03:12 GMT -5
I know you never know until you're there, but I'm honestly not sure I would if it was my kid. I mean, I would help as much as he was willing to work with me, but I wouldn't work harder on getting him clean than he was. it only works if they want to get clean. I've seen it with my cousin. To be fair, my aunt isn't spending a shit ton of money on him because she doesn't have it. But because he lost everything, he has government insurance and it does pay for rehab and he has been in a few times. For her it is more the emotional toll it takes on her. Everytime he goes in and gets out she truly believes he is cured. Then she watches him downspiral again and again, knowing she can't truly do anything to stop him. She is now 76 years old and I don't know how much more she can take.
I have a different opinion on mental illness (not a choice) than addiction. I do think mentally ill people can be helped but I know that heroin addicts are more likely than not going to die a junkie.
God willing I will never know about either with my daughter.
Not always.
Unfortunately, in my job I see more mentally ill who are noncompliant than are compliant, but that's the nature of mental illness. The compliant ones you don't hear from. The noncompliant ones commit crimes, are victims of crimes, and get their children taken away.
When you combine mental illness with drug addiction, now that is tough to treat. Oy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 10:15:15 GMT -5
it only works if they want to get clean. I've seen it with my cousin. To be fair, my aunt isn't spending a shit ton of money on him because she doesn't have it. But because he lost everything, he has government insurance and it does pay for rehab and he has been in a few times. For her it is more the emotional toll it takes on her. Everytime he goes in and gets out she truly believes he is cured. Then she watches him downspiral again and again, knowing she can't truly do anything to stop him. She is now 76 years old and I don't know how much more she can take.
I have a different opinion on mental illness (not a choice) than addiction. I do think mentally ill people can be helped but I know that heroin addicts are more likely than not going to die a junkie.
God willing I will never know about either with my daughter.
Not always.
Unfortunately, in my job I see more mentally ill who are noncompliant than are compliant, but that's the nature of mental illness. The compliant ones you don't hear from. The noncompliant ones commit crimes, are victims of crimes, and get their children taken away.
When you combine mental illness with drug addiction, now that is tough to treat. Oy.
That was my ex!! But, funny thing. As soon as everyone said "f** you. Kill yourself if you want to" and abandoned him to his jail cell, he suddenly found it in himself to turn things around. I really worry about my son inheriting some of the shit from that side of the family.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 16, 2017 11:08:22 GMT -5
Not always.
Unfortunately, in my job I see more mentally ill who are noncompliant than are compliant, but that's the nature of mental illness. The compliant ones you don't hear from. The noncompliant ones commit crimes, are victims of crimes, and get their children taken away.
When you combine mental illness with drug addiction, now that is tough to treat. Oy.
That was my ex!! But, funny thing. As soon as everyone said "f** you. Kill yourself if you want to" and abandoned him to his jail cell, he suddenly found it in himself to turn things around.
I really worry about my son inheriting some of the shit from that side of the family. Your ex also had a secondary need, your son. He very likely would not have cleaned up his act if he didn't have the access to Eli being held as a carrot.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 11:35:33 GMT -5
That was my ex!! But, funny thing. As soon as everyone said "f** you. Kill yourself if you want to" and abandoned him to his jail cell, he suddenly found it in himself to turn things around.
I really worry about my son inheriting some of the shit from that side of the family. Your ex also had a secondary need, your son. He very likely would not have cleaned up his act if he didn't have the access to Eli being held as a carrot.Ok, so now Eli has a new nickname.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on May 16, 2017 11:41:02 GMT -5
That was my ex!! But, funny thing. As soon as everyone said "f** you. Kill yourself if you want to" and abandoned him to his jail cell, he suddenly found it in himself to turn things around.
I really worry about my son inheriting some of the shit from that side of the family. Your ex also had a secondary need, your son. He very likely would not have cleaned up his act if he didn't have the access to Eli being held as a carrot. Eh. Maybe? But I think a lot of people who love their kids are still unable to fix their mental illness and or drug addiction. It doesn't mean they don't love their kids and want to see them. I don't really think those things should be equated.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 16, 2017 12:20:57 GMT -5
it only works if they want to get clean. I've seen it with my cousin. To be fair, my aunt isn't spending a shit ton of money on him because she doesn't have it. But because he lost everything, he has government insurance and it does pay for rehab and he has been in a few times. For her it is more the emotional toll it takes on her. Everytime he goes in and gets out she truly believes he is cured. Then she watches him downspiral again and again, knowing she can't truly do anything to stop him. She is now 76 years old and I don't know how much more she can take.
I have a different opinion on mental illness (not a choice) than addiction. I do think mentally ill people can be helped but I know that heroin addicts are more likely than not going to die a junkie.
God willing I will never know about either with my daughter.
Not always.
Unfortunately, in my job I see more mentally ill who are noncompliant than are compliant, but that's the nature of mental illness. The compliant ones you don't hear from. The noncompliant ones commit crimes, are victims of crimes, and get their children taken away.
When you combine mental illness with drug addiction, now that is tough to treat. Oy.
And I think that is where I'm naïve...because I totally think I can beat compliance into her head
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 16, 2017 12:22:52 GMT -5
Not always.
Unfortunately, in my job I see more mentally ill who are noncompliant than are compliant, but that's the nature of mental illness. The compliant ones you don't hear from. The noncompliant ones commit crimes, are victims of crimes, and get their children taken away.
When you combine mental illness with drug addiction, now that is tough to treat. Oy.
That was my ex!! But, funny thing. As soon as everyone said "f** you. Kill yourself if you want to" and abandoned him to his jail cell, he suddenly found it in himself to turn things around. I really worry about my son inheriting some of the shit from that side of the family. Addiction is strong on my side of the family so I have major worries about that (mostly alcohol but two cousins who are junkies). Scares the hell out of me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 12:54:38 GMT -5
That was my ex!! But, funny thing. As soon as everyone said "f** you. Kill yourself if you want to" and abandoned him to his jail cell, he suddenly found it in himself to turn things around. I really worry about my son inheriting some of the shit from that side of the family. Addiction is strong on my side of the family so I have major worries about that (mostly alcohol but two cousins who are junkies). Scares the hell out of me.
My son's Dad has 6 siblings. Three are fine. Three are a hot mess. Schizophrena, bipolar, addictions...one sister is in and out of prison, one is in and out of mental health institutions and had her kids taken away from her and given to their Dad who is no piece of work himself and the one brother was doing things so off the wall that Dr. Phil was trying to get him on his show. My ex goes back and forth between functioning and not. All brakes or all gas is what the psychologists say about him. His mother is paranoid and anxious and hasn't been able to hold a job pretty much her entire life. She had a breakdown before the kids were out of the house and took off and left them to the Dad to raise and I'm not sure he would have won any parenting awards. So yeah... a tad bit worried about my little Carrot.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 16, 2017 12:55:37 GMT -5
Addiction is strong on my side of the family so I have major worries about that (mostly alcohol but two cousins who are junkies). Scares the hell out of me.
My son's Dad has 6 siblings. Three are fine. Three are a hot mess. Schizophrena, bipolar, addictions...one sister is in and out of prison, one is in and out of mental health institutions and had her kids taken away from her and given to their Dad who is no piece of work himself and the one brother was doing things so off the wall that Dr. Phil was trying to get him on his show. My ex goes back and forth between functioning and not. All brakes or all gas is what the psychologists say about him. His mother is paranoid and anxious and hasn't been able to hold a job pretty much her entire life. She had a breakdown before the kids were out of the house and took off and left them to the Dad to raise and I'm not sure he would have won any parenting awards. Oh lord, that is so awful
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justme
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Post by justme on May 16, 2017 13:04:45 GMT -5
I would never be ok with it. But I also realize I can't fix someone unless they want fixing. But that is much different than saying you respect their right to choose what to do with their own body. That was the attitude I couldn't understand. I don't understand mental illness and God willing I will never have to, but I do understand that a mentally healthy person doesn't usually commit suicide (terminal illness, aside). A mentally ill person needs help not being told it is their body and they can choose to do what they want. Ultimately I get that it isn't always easy to prevent suicide if someone is that for gone mentally. But the attitude of "it is their right to choose" made me scratch my head.
Except, mental illness can be a terminal illness...hence the suicide. Not every mental illness can be fixed. Hell, a lot can barely be managed. Telling someone that far down the mental illness hole to just think happy thoughts and you'll be better is like telling someone with terminal cancer to just eat more veggies.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 16, 2017 13:25:12 GMT -5
If this guy had to scrape together money to get a can of beans for his family to share, why didn't they get food stamps? Is there a waiting period? I would think both parents having sudden disabilities (crushed foot and cancer) would enable them to get some type of assistance.
I have known a few people who have said things like 'I would hook on the street before I would take welfare.' Maybe his was 'I would kill myself before taking government assistance'? I don't get that mentality.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 16, 2017 13:39:24 GMT -5
Your ex also had a secondary need, your son. He very likely would not have cleaned up his act if he didn't have the access to Eli being held as a carrot.Ok, so now Eli has a new nickname. Do you think your ex would have worked so hard to get clean if he didn't have Eli? I know it isn't everything, but I also know that your ex doted on that boy far more than normal.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 14:10:52 GMT -5
Ok, so now Eli has a new nickname. Do you think your ex would have worked so hard to get clean if he didn't have Eli? I know it isn't everything, but I also know that your ex doted on that boy far more than normal. Probably not. Eli is just another drug for him.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 16, 2017 14:17:26 GMT -5
If this guy had to scrape together money to get a can of beans for his family to share, why didn't they get food stamps? Is there a waiting period? I would think both parents having sudden disabilities (crushed foot and cancer) would enable them to get some type of assistance. I have known a few people who have said things like 'I would hook on the street before I would take welfare.' Maybe his was 'I would kill myself before taking government assistance'? I don't get that mentality. Food stamps help, but like most assistance it is not immediate. Here a one month to two month delay is common from the day one applies.
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on May 16, 2017 17:10:36 GMT -5
If this guy had to scrape together money to get a can of beans for his family to share, why didn't they get food stamps? Is there a waiting period? I would think both parents having sudden disabilities (crushed foot and cancer) would enable them to get some type of assistance. I have known a few people who have said things like 'I would hook on the street before I would take welfare.' Maybe his was 'I would kill myself before taking government assistance'? I don't get that mentality. Maybe he posts here and he didn't want to be reminded of his failings as a human being for needing financial assistance and his failure to plan and save accordingly.
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bobosensei
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Post by bobosensei on May 21, 2017 16:26:24 GMT -5
You could not have said it better. Getting additional jobs means hiring out care for the hours that you're not around. That cost can't be ignored. Plus that person needs to be able to have time to eat and get some actual sleep. You guys are right except . . . now the spouse with the possibly cancer/expensive ongoing illness that we can't afford treatment for and possibly no safety net of friends and family strong enough to fall back on with that kind of load . . . well, now, she's carrying the load all by herself. I doubt they have any insurance. When he was talking about the car, he said it didn't matter about his trashed credit. They had no money for payments of any kind. They had no money to feed the children, whose stomachs rumbled with hunger. She'll get SS for the kids. I guess that's something. But he certainly didn't do it to take the load off her. And he was getting workman's comp after an injury. I just keep thinking he'd be alive if he had gotten the $3500. I could have written that check. That is what makes it seems so fixable. It would have been something else in the end. Would 3500 have kept him a live a little longer, maybe, but the problems would have continued and eventually this probably would have happened over another amount or a different emergency. The money wasn't actually the issue. Probably more feeling disconnected, hopeless, depressed etc. and that was part of what kept him from getting the money.
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bobosensei
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Post by bobosensei on May 21, 2017 16:40:34 GMT -5
I hope that last post didn't sound callous. I do think we need healthcare reform, and we need to help people who have mental illness. It's terrible what happens. I have a friend whose dad was a vietnam vet who committed suicide 2 weeks before christmas when she was 9 years old. She still struggles with this. Can you imagine this poor guys kids? What if mom's illness is terminal?
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on May 21, 2017 20:26:06 GMT -5
Mental illness and addiction suck. We tried everything in the world to save my stepbrother. We pissed him off to no end by having the judge commit him to rehab. That was his last stint in rehab. They kicked him out after 4 days for not participating.
He died a few months later clutching a vodka bottle. And it haunts all of us that we couldn't save him. He didn't want to give up the vodka bottle and face the demons (likely undiagnosed PTSD) enough to get better. Nothing we did changed the outcome and that's a very humbling place to be. You just can't help people if they don't try. And it sucks to no end because we want to believe if we love them enough, if we force them into rehab, if we cut off access to the drugs of choice and if we throw enough money at it that they'll get better. And when they don't, it feels like an awful failure to the ones left. It haunts the ones left behind for sure.
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