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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 16:25:42 GMT -5
My children went to a small private school. I don't think there were ever more than a dozen boys in my son's class, and a few went to public school around middle school. The third one of these boys, all in their thirties, committed suicide today.
The first one was not unexpected. He first tried when he was in seventh or eighth grade. He had demons. He jumped off a bridge in his early 30s. The demons won, but he put up a good fight for years.
The second one was on drugs. He'd been clean for about a year when he relapsed. No one really knows if his death was a suicide or an overdose, but it doesn't matter. Dead is dead.
The third one lost his job a couple of years ago when his company shut down. I am getting most of my information from Gofundme. They thought they would be ok because they had six months of emergency savings. He got a lower paying job, but then his wife got sick. She wanted to keep the details private, but he mentioned the oncologist they couldn't afford for her to see. He lost the second job and insurance. They had to start using the ER as their medical, which is costly. Meanwhile, they must have had a third child.
The first Gofundme request was for $8000 to try to save their house, get medicine for his wife, etc. and avoid bankruptcy. That was in 2015. They got $3500 of the $8000 needed. The second Gofundme request was for last month for $3500. They lost the house, their cars, and were in bankruptcy They needed a cheap, cheap car. This time they raised $180.
That had to be a slap in the face. But if his friends were his age, they were about 37 or 38 years old with mortgage, car payments, and kids of their own. It wasn't that they didn't care. They don't have any money. That $180 came at $10 at a time.
I have been really upset about this. I understand the first two suicides although they broke my heart. But money seems so fixable to me. You get a second or third job. You apply for food stamps and Medicaid and anything else you can qualify for. You move back in with your parents even if you have a wife and three kids. Home is where they have to take you in when you have to go (paraphrase). It is "only" money.
Do I not understand money? I keep coming back to this over and over.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 5, 2017 16:44:14 GMT -5
A sad story to tell us, SS. My condolences to all involved, past and present.
My aunt committed suicide one Thanksgiving day many years ago. In her case her family (she was married to my father's brother) was going through number of mental health problems. My uncle's treatment for bi-polar disease was not under control at the time of her suicide. Their middle child also was being treated for bi-polar disease-he was about 22 at the time of his mother's death.
The whole family's sync was out of wack. Several weeks before she died, my aunt told my father she was going to kill herself. Dad told her she was talking nonsense. My father felt responsible for her death the rest of his life.
Yet my aunt and uncle's kids credited my dad with saving their family and getting them back on track once my uncle and cousin's bi-polar disease was under control and the family had returned to a semblance of normalcy after my aunt's death. Dad worked hard with all of them to get them well and functioning.
There are many things which can cause despondency. Money and lack there of is one of them. In my uncle and his family's case it was mental illness. Individuals and families can be overwhelmed with what is directly in front of them and they simply do not see a way out of it.
Sadly, crap sometimes happens to even the best of people. Some make it out and some don't.
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quince
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Post by quince on May 5, 2017 17:42:38 GMT -5
Money isn't always fixable. 3 kids and illness might not leave TIME for 3 jobs, even IF there are jobs around to be had. There's not always family that is able to take a person in.
I'm fortunate enough that I have a reasonable safety net. Family AND friends that would take my family in if needed. Mid to late 30s, no money, destroyed credit, spouse with possibly cancer/expensive ongoing illness that we can't afford treatment for, and possibly no safety net of friends and family strong enough to fall back on with that kind of load? That's the kind of hole that does not look like there is a way out of when you're looking up from the bottom of it.
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Post by Value Buy on May 5, 2017 17:55:35 GMT -5
Thanks to SouthernSusana and Tennesseer for bringing this issue up.
As a child and young teenager I never knew anything about mental illness, depression, bipolar, etc. We just had people and relatives that we knew, that were........"quite not right in the head" but was never openly talked to by our parents. Loners, people that never left their bedrooms when company came, etc. It sort of was just......"normal" to deal with them and have it happen. By the time I hit 25, I was much more informed on the issues. In the fifties and early sixties it was not so much drug use, but today throw in drug use and mental illness, we have a huge problem. I am truly sorry for your personal interactions that you both had.
I do know the pain you are carrying, or did go through.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 5, 2017 18:04:15 GMT -5
Money isn't always fixable. 3 kids and illness might not leave TIME for 3 jobs, even IF there are jobs around to be had. There's not always family that is able to take a person in. I'm fortunate enough that I have a reasonable safety net. Family AND friends that would take my family in if needed. Mid to late 30s, no money, destroyed credit, spouse with possibly cancer/expensive ongoing illness that we can't afford treatment for, and possibly no safety net of friends and family strong enough to fall back on with that kind of load? That's the kind of hole that does not look like there is a way out of when you're looking up from the bottom of it. You could not have said it better. Getting additional jobs means hiring out care for the hours that you're not around. That cost can't be ignored. Plus that person needs to be able to have time to eat and get some actual sleep.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 18:12:12 GMT -5
Money isn't always fixable. 3 kids and illness might not leave TIME for 3 jobs, even IF there are jobs around to be had. There's not always family that is able to take a person in. I'm fortunate enough that I have a reasonable safety net. Family AND friends that would take my family in if needed. Mid to late 30s, no money, destroyed credit, spouse with possibly cancer/expensive ongoing illness that we can't afford treatment for, and possibly no safety net of friends and family strong enough to fall back on with that kind of load? That's the kind of hole that does not look like there is a way out of when you're looking up from the bottom of it. You could not have said it better. Getting additional jobs means hiring out care for the hours that you're not around. That cost can't be ignored. Plus that person needs to be able to have time to eat and get some actual sleep. You guys are right except . . . now the spouse with the possibly cancer/expensive ongoing illness that we can't afford treatment for and possibly no safety net of friends and family strong enough to fall back on with that kind of load . . . well, now, she's carrying the load all by herself. I doubt they have any insurance. When he was talking about the car, he said it didn't matter about his trashed credit. They had no money for payments of any kind. They had no money to feed the children, whose stomachs rumbled with hunger. She'll get SS for the kids. I guess that's something. But he certainly didn't do it to take the load off her. And he was getting workman's comp after an injury. I just keep thinking he'd be alive if he had gotten the $3500. I could have written that check. That is what makes it seems so fixable.
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quince
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Post by quince on May 5, 2017 18:21:09 GMT -5
It's fixable, sure, but not always by the person at the bottom of the hole, and the people who could write the checks...didn't. We've got a spotty safety net and a vocal culture that is ...unkind to those who can't fix/prevent/prepare for all their problems all by themselves in the USA.
I would say it's probably not JUST money. I certainly would have the feeling with sick spouse/hungry kids and knowing there would be SS income after I passed? "They are better off without me." PLUS I wouldn't have to deal daily with the knowledge I'm continually failing my loved ones? I can see it.
I'd probably be wrong, but when you're at that point, you don't see that there's more hope for the living than the dead, you just see trouble with only one way out.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on May 5, 2017 18:32:47 GMT -5
Thoughts of suicide are COMPLETELY unfamiliar to me. I can not relate to it at all. Nor depression.
However, I can understand very very well the feeling of wanting to give up and thinking that there is no way out. Some people can't handle even minor stress and fall to pieces, so it's no wonder that such dire situation can cause a person to seek the ultimate way out.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on May 5, 2017 18:38:35 GMT -5
That's really sad. We just never know what is going on inside someone else's head.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 19:02:22 GMT -5
Depression is a bitch, I haven't faced it myself but I know those that have. I have a friend that committed suicide when I was a senior in high school and I vowed to never let it happen again if I could help it.
I have helped out a couple of friends that were in a bad financial spot where I really worried about their mental health. I honestly felt like shit for giving it to them because I knew it made them feel bad for being in a position for knowing they needed to take it. They both paid me back later on their own accord. Today I feel better I did something, I have no idea if it prevented the unthinkable but it could have.
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Artemis Windsong
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Post by Artemis Windsong on May 5, 2017 19:17:16 GMT -5
"Individuals and families can be overwhelmed with what is directly in front of them and they simply do not see a way out of it."
Well said TNr. People get stuck in a life without the support or resources to make changes. Being screwed over or knowing how many ways a person can be "played" in various ways makes them wary and untrusting even of those trying to help. Many people don't know where or how to apply for help.
On the other side of it, helpers can get caught up in 'just a couple more thousand and we'll be fine'. Some situations can suck a person dry.
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Artemis Windsong
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Post by Artemis Windsong on May 5, 2017 19:31:35 GMT -5
My late brother was at the point of suicide when I called him years ago. My older brother and his girl friend were there. They got on the phone and said this is not a joke. I talked him down but they had to finish up because they were in another state. He did have a mental evaluation. A lot of his and the family problems were caused from alcohol.
The short story is neither of my brothers would have had any quality of life if it weren't for my H. and me.
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Post by empress of self-improvement on May 5, 2017 20:08:36 GMT -5
It's fixable, sure, but not always by the person at the bottom of the hole, and the people who could write the checks...didn't. We've got a spotty safety net and a vocal culture that is ...unkind to those who can't fix/prevent/prepare for all their problems all by themselves in the USA. I would say it's probably not JUST money. I certainly would have the feeling with sick spouse/hungry kids and knowing there would be SS income after I passed? "They are better off without me." PLUS I wouldn't have to deal daily with the knowledge I'm continually failing my loved ones? I can see it. I'd probably be wrong, but when you're at that point, you don't see that there's more hope for the living than the dead, you just see trouble with only one way out.You're not wrong. I've been having those feelings again since all this BS about the healthcare crap has been happening. My stress level has been getting atrocious and so I've also been thinking about how I'm going to do it, pills being the most likely answer. My ceilings are too short to hang myself and slitting my wrists won't work. Can't afford a gun and I have no idea where my sister keeps hers. We'll be bankrupt in 2 hours if this thing passes because however much I'd like to get 3 or 4 jobs to take care of him, who the hell is going to be here to pick him up off the floor when he falls, which he has been doing with increasing regularity. He also needs someone there when he eats and drinks now because he has been choking a lot more as well. Not sure if it's the MS or because he's just a pig and inhales his food. I suspect it's both. I can't afford someone to come in when I'm not here, all his brothers have lives and my sister is worse than useless. His mother has dementia so the brother she lives with is busy dealing with her. 2 others work overnights as well, and the last has triplet babies and lives by Rhode Island. I've been getting worked up since, according to the God-fearing morons of government, DH decided he wanted MS because he ate too much bread and I should have stopped myself from getting a near-fatal illness when I was 6 months old that decided to bring me a seizure almost 40 years later. Yep. I feel so much better. So now I just wait for DH to kick the bucket which, if all goes the way they want, will be sooner rather than later. Then I shall shuffle off this mortal coil. The joy overwhelms me. Not.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 5, 2017 20:19:28 GMT -5
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Post by dee27 on May 5, 2017 20:22:24 GMT -5
Empress
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Post by Opti on May 5, 2017 20:37:25 GMT -5
You could not have said it better. Getting additional jobs means hiring out care for the hours that you're not around. That cost can't be ignored. Plus that person needs to be able to have time to eat and get some actual sleep. You guys are right except . . . now the spouse with the possibly cancer/expensive ongoing illness that we can't afford treatment for and possibly no safety net of friends and family strong enough to fall back on with that kind of load . . . well, now, she's carrying the load all by herself. I doubt they have any insurance. When he was talking about the car, he said it didn't matter about his trashed credit. They had no money for payments of any kind. They had no money to feed the children, whose stomachs rumbled with hunger. She'll get SS for the kids. I guess that's something. But he certainly didn't do it to take the load off her. And he was getting workman's comp after an injury. I just keep thinking he'd be alive if he had gotten the $3500. I could have written that check. That is what makes it seems so fixable. I think he was overwhelmed and got sad enough for over three weeks that his depression turned chemical. Once it does that its hard to do anything and that's a lot to deal with even when you are well. He was probably so depressed he could no longer figure a way out.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on May 6, 2017 6:03:49 GMT -5
I don't think money is an usual reason to commit suicide. People have committed suicide thinking that their families will be better off if they collect on their life insurance. Seems like maybe this is more common for men who are often more invested in being a provider. And, yes, you can go out and make more money. However, that isn't as easy as it used to be. To become employed now can literally take months of interviews, credentialing, drug tests, physicals, reference and background checks, etc. There are very few jobs where you can walk in and start working immediately or almost immediately. There is a loss of the connections, family, and safety nets for many people. Believe it or not, there are many people without family to turn too.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on May 6, 2017 11:05:47 GMT -5
very sad, condolences Susana.
There is no way to know what was going on in his head - how this seemed the path to him. If there is a life insurance policy, that may have been the reason. If not, just a mystery.
I agree he's really left the wife holding the bag, with his children's position very precarious - especially if the mom doesn't make it. Sending them good thoughts to find a way through this mess.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on May 6, 2017 12:49:20 GMT -5
It's fixable, sure, but not always by the person at the bottom of the hole, and the people who could write the checks...didn't. We've got a spotty safety net and a vocal culture that is ...unkind to those who can't fix/prevent/prepare for all their problems all by themselves in the USA. I would say it's probably not JUST money. I certainly would have the feeling with sick spouse/hungry kids and knowing there would be SS income after I passed? "They are better off without me." PLUS I wouldn't have to deal daily with the knowledge I'm continually failing my loved ones? I can see it. I'd probably be wrong, but when you're at that point, you don't see that there's more hope for the living than the dead, you just see trouble with only one way out.You're not wrong. I've been having those feelings again since all this BS about the healthcare crap has been happening. My stress level has been getting atrocious and so I've also been thinking about how I'm going to do it, pills being the most likely answer. My ceilings are too short to hang myself and slitting my wrists won't work. Can't afford a gun and I have no idea where my sister keeps hers. We'll be bankrupt in 2 hours if this thing passes because however much I'd like to get 3 or 4 jobs to take care of him, who the hell is going to be here to pick him up off the floor when he falls, which he has been doing with increasing regularity. He also needs someone there when he eats and drinks now because he has been choking a lot more as well. Not sure if it's the MS or because he's just a pig and inhales his food. I suspect it's both. I can't afford someone to come in when I'm not here, all his brothers have lives and my sister is worse than useless. His mother has dementia so the brother she lives with is busy dealing with her. 2 others work overnights as well, and the last has triplet babies and lives by Rhode Island. I've been getting worked up since, according to the God-fearing morons of government, DH decided he wanted MS because he ate too much bread and I should have stopped myself from getting a near-fatal illness when I was 6 months old that decided to bring me a seizure almost 40 years later. Yep. I feel so much better. So now I just wait for DH to kick the bucket which, if all goes the way they want, will be sooner rather than later. Then I shall shuffle off this mortal coil. The joy overwhelms me. Not. Huggies. You've got so much on your plate.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 6, 2017 15:12:26 GMT -5
I think one of the problems is our need to tell people they are immoral if they declare bankruptcy. Money was raised and he used it trying to save his house, his cars and staying out of BK. If he had stopped paying on everything and used that money to get an apartment and a cheap car, maybe he could have stretched the money. What if he did declare bankruptcy and all of the discharged debt was either medical or stemmed from medical problems? So what? His family isn't better off. I bet every one of them would rather have him with a history of bankruptcy than to go around and say "my Dad committed suicide so we would get the life insurance payout. I am so proud he never declared bankruptcy. "
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finnime
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Post by finnime on May 8, 2017 5:49:57 GMT -5
Recent information has shown a surge in suicidality, especially among middle-aged working-class men. Hard to understand from outside, but for people who see no hope, and have never really experienced success, it seems like the only way to stop pain.
Older people in the U.S. have generally seen successes. Even if things are not going well for long periods in their lives, they can pull on their experience base to tell them it will improve.
I agree, @bamafan1954, this is a sad waste. Enough money to see a future maybe would have saved this man's life. I wish that were there for people who need it.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on May 8, 2017 6:19:26 GMT -5
You could not have said it better. Getting additional jobs means hiring out care for the hours that you're not around. That cost can't be ignored. Plus that person needs to be able to have time to eat and get some actual sleep. You guys are right except . . . now the spouse with the possibly cancer/expensive ongoing illness that we can't afford treatment for and possibly no safety net of friends and family strong enough to fall back on with that kind of load . . . well, now, she's carrying the load all by herself. I doubt they have any insurance. When he was talking about the car, he said it didn't matter about his trashed credit. They had no money for payments of any kind. They had no money to feed the children, whose stomachs rumbled with hunger. She'll get SS for the kids. I guess that's something. But he certainly didn't do it to take the load off her. And he was getting workman's comp after an injury. I just keep thinking he'd be alive if he had gotten the $3500. I could have written that check. That is what makes it seems so fixable. I would think something else was going on here, At least wise in AZ, if you have little or no money, there is ACCESS for medical, ADD , Aid for Dependent Children, for food! I don't think that you should beat yourself over not giving money!
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on May 8, 2017 6:30:33 GMT -5
Giving money to people doesn't fix anything. It's a temporary bandaid at best. Someone who is suicidal is having trouble coping. And, there are plenty of things in life that are difficult to cope with. And, it it wasn't that, then the next life crisis, then the next. Some people can see the way through difficult situations. And, we aren't doing a very job at raising the next generation to handle adversity. Our grandparents had grit and determination and faith in the goodness of life. That seems to be lost on some of us nowadays.
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Post by 973beachbum on May 8, 2017 6:43:41 GMT -5
Medical bills though are tough. This isn't a one off event. If you get in an accident and go the ER they patch you up, send you home, and then send you the bills. If you had insurance or especially good insurance you won't get much of the bills to pay. But if you don't it can be an insane amount.
In this case the woman has cancer and need ongoing treatment. Dr's want proof of insurance or ability to pay before starting treatment. Anyone want to bet their life that the medical treatment would continue after discharging the medical bills in BK?
I know more than one person who had to come up with tens of thousands to get a surgery they needed. I can't imagine how much it would be to treat cancer.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 8, 2017 7:39:49 GMT -5
Giving money to people doesn't fix anything. It's a temporary bandaid at best. Someone who is suicidal is having trouble coping. And, there are plenty of things in life that are difficult to cope with. And, it it wasn't that, then the next life crisis, then the next. Some people can see the way through difficult situations. And, we aren't doing a very job at raising the next generation to handle adversity. Our grandparents had grit and determination and faith in the goodness of life. That seems to be lost on some of us nowadays. 1) Someone who is suicidal may have depression which has turned chemical/physical. At that point, they are no longer in control, the chemicals are. 2) You seem to have a romantic notion about how well people coped in the past. I think it just was better hidden then. Below is a link to suicide rates. Notice how high 1950 was. www.infoplease.com/us/mortality/death-rates-suicide-1950a2010
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on May 8, 2017 10:10:37 GMT -5
It's hard to work 2 or 3 jobs if you have young children and a sick spouse. Who is supposed to take care of the little ones if the spouse who has cancer is sleeping or throwing up all day or going to treatments? Not everyone has parents left to move in with. Maybe these people did, but that is not really an easy option for many people, especially if they live across the country from relatives.
That said, I cannot imagine being the healthy parent of several children and killing myself. Those children will likely end up as orphans. Very sad indeed.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 8, 2017 10:36:28 GMT -5
Giving money to people doesn't fix anything. It's a temporary bandaid at best. Someone who is suicidal is having trouble coping. And, there are plenty of things in life that are difficult to cope with. And, it it wasn't that, then the next life crisis, then the next. Some people can see the way through difficult situations. And, we aren't doing a very job at raising the next generation to handle adversity. Our grandparents had grit and determination and faith in the goodness of life. That seems to be lost on some of us nowadays. if their problem is crippling medical bills, I'm pretty sure money would fix that specific problem. It's not like they were buying Coach bags and crab legs. Grit, determination, and faith isn't going to cure someone's cancer. A lot of us would be bankrupt or out on the street if we encountered a major medical emergency.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 11:02:59 GMT -5
Medical emergencies are the worst. In 2013 when my ex hurt his hand things spiraled out of control from there. He was in pain, he couldn't work, the bills were piling up, and I'm sure the prescribed opiates contributed to his ultimate crash.
I'm going through it again on a very small scale, but it's not just money when it's a health issue. I've gained 30 pounds in the past year, self-esteem is in the toilet, anxiety level is through the roof, I'm stressed out, I'm having to fit doctor's appointments in with work, I don't have energy AND I have these freaking bills coming in. It just makes the bill situation seem so much worse than it actually is when you're not feeling well. Thankfully, I think I'm on the mend and things are looking up, but I can totally see how medical situations can bankrupt a person.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 8, 2017 11:29:47 GMT -5
This thread got me back to looking at short term disability insurance. My employer doesn't offer it and I am not sure if DH's current employer does. Now that we have a mortgage and with all the crap going on with health care I need to get on it.
Also considering Alfac critical illness and cancer insurance but I have to look into that more deeply.
Starting to think I can't have enough insurance. DH and I are not in professions where we can pay all our regular bills AND save up enough that we could afford to self insure. Pretty sure the mortgage company and hospitals are not going to give a crap how much "grit" we have unless we can somehow turn into something with monetary value.
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finnime
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Post by finnime on May 8, 2017 11:31:26 GMT -5
The inordinate stress of not being able to pay for essential needs, including health care in this country, can drive someone beyond the pale. Too easy to fault someone, including ourselves, for failures to meet impossible demands. You can't do what you can't do.
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