NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on May 11, 2017 20:24:39 GMT -5
But the person committing suicide doesn't feel that way. You have a terminally ill spouse and have lost everything. Sorry but working 2-3 jobs isn't going to cut it. Hardly any of us are in a position where having a terminally ill spouse wouldn't totally bankrupt us. Most of us are also old enough that we're likely to not be able to recover in time before we hit old age which comes with it's own costs. He probably truly felt that his family would be better off with his life insurance rather than having him around constantly dragging them under. Which goes back to Thyme's point that I agree with, we need to stop demonizing people like the guy in the OP over finances and flippantly telling them if they'd just work 2-3 jobs their "temporary" problem would be fixed. It's a lot more complicated than that. Fortunately I've never been at a point where I considered my family would be better off with me dead but I certainly understand how you can get there. I balanced on that fine line while I was unemployed. We got by but it was hard constantly hearing what a "bad" person I was from the way people in the UE office talked to me, to the people at the medicaid office when I applied for the kids, to just every day people who spout off about all those "unemployed losers" sitting on their asses collecting benefits rather than working a McJob. I got laid off because there was literally no money left to keep me employed, but that's not acceptable in this country. I should have picked a different job, I should have picked a different career, I should not have had kids, I should have gotten a different degree. .. you get the idea. You can only absorb so much negativity and hate before it starts to re-wire your brain and you believe what people are saying. Are you suggesting suicide is the right decision? I get depression reprograms your brain and what's logical to a normal brain is not logical to a depressed one. And solving depression isn't as simple as just "snapping out of it." I've been unemployed too and have had to deal with the humiliation of unemployment and well meaning levtures. I've even had depression and suicidal thoughts. But that doesn't change the fact that suicide isn't the answer. Suicide is not your answer. And I am glad it isn't. However, what brought you to the brink is only tiny compared to what this guy faced. While I don't claim to understand either you or this man, I refuse to judge others just because my life and my reactions are different. Part of the problem that we as a society face, and that some cannot handle, is that we ARE so bloody judgemental. Don't be part of the problem!
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dee27
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Post by dee27 on May 11, 2017 20:53:43 GMT -5
A close family friend holed up in a hotel room in a major city far from home and committed suicide. His family was devastated, but his former clients were owed monies that were overdue. Despite her grief, his wife paid his clients from her personal inheritance, not because of the shame, but because she felt it was the right thing to do. His wife was always a beacon of society, gracious, and humble despite being very rich. Speculation: I don't know if he decided that he could never be equal to her wealth or he chose drugs or gambling as an outlet, but he felt trapped and suicide was an exit for him. His suicide has difficult for his family, but his personal pain certainly become insurmountable. One of my college friends committed suicide three years into his law practice. He had lofty ideals to help people w/o means, but he could not pay his bills and became depressed. He was one of the kindest people I knew, but he felt he had failed. I try not to judge a person who commits suicide since I feel there can be a very thin line between despair and happiness. Those left behind are the ones who have to deal with the unanswered questions, the loss of a loved one, and perhaps the guilt that they did not do more.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 11, 2017 21:55:30 GMT -5
Are you suggesting suicide is the right decision? I get depression reprograms your brain and what's logical to a normal brain is not logical to a depressed one. And solving depression isn't as simple as just "snapping out of it." I've been unemployed too and have had to deal with the humiliation of unemployment and well meaning levtures. I've even had depression and suicidal thoughts. But that doesn't change the fact that suicide isn't the answer. Suicide is not your answer. And I am glad it isn't. However, what brought you to the brink is only tiny compared to what this guy faced. While I don't claim to understand either you or this man, I refuse to judge others just because my life and my reactions are different. Part of the problem that we as a society face, and that some cannot handle, is that we ARE so bloody judgemental. Don't be part of the problem! Alright then, fine. Suicide is a personal choice and is subjective as to wheather its right or not. It doesn't matter what the effect is on those that are left behind and in some cases is beneficial to the survivors.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 8:07:20 GMT -5
Suicide is not your answer. And I am glad it isn't. However, what brought you to the brink is only tiny compared to what this guy faced. While I don't claim to understand either you or this man, I refuse to judge others just because my life and my reactions are different. Part of the problem that we as a society face, and that some cannot handle, is that we ARE so bloody judgemental. Don't be part of the problem! Alright then, fine. Suicide is a personal choice and is subjective as to wheather its right or not. It doesn't matter what the effect is on those that are left behind and in some cases is beneficial to the survivors. I really don't think she's trying to say suicide is the right answer. Just that people can be pushed to the point where they truly feel it is and people saying "well, I was depressed and chose differently" is not helpful. You're not THAT PERSON AT THAT TIME.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 12, 2017 8:41:52 GMT -5
Are you suggesting suicide is the right decision?
Personally for me, no. However I don't think it does any good to sit and cluck about the fact that I don't think it's the right decision because clearly the person who goes thru with it disagrees with me.
Sitting around talking about how much better of a person I am for whatever reason doesn't help the situation at all. I have empathy for the person even if I would not go to such extremes.
I recognize it's because I am lucky to either not have been pushed to that point, I'm not wired that way or likely a combination of both. All sitting around talking about what this person should or should not have done and all the ways I am "better" than him for not making the same choices does is make ME feel better and give me the opportunity to feel superior over someone else.
It doesn't help the survivors to sit around and tell them how bad and selfish the person who committed suicide is does it? Does it really help a suicidal person to sit around and inform them about all the things they've done wrong, all the things wrong with them and how they are yet to make another bad decision and how that makes you better them?
I think we could do a lot of good in society if we quit using every tragedy as an opportunity to gloat over how much better we are and how much in control of the universe we are we started having some freaking empathy for other people. At the very least keep your mouth shut if you can't manage the former. You don't know what other people are going thru so sitting at a family BBQ talking about how anyone on unemployment is a mooching drain on society isn't very nice. You can find other things to talk about and keep that opinion in your head.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on May 12, 2017 8:42:24 GMT -5
Alright then, fine. Suicide is a personal choice and is subjective as to wheather its right or not. It doesn't matter what the effect is on those that are left behind and in some cases is beneficial to the survivors. I really don't think she's trying to say suicide is the right answer. Just that people can be pushed to the point where they truly feel it is and people saying "well, I was depressed and chose differently" is not helpful. You're not THAT PERSON AT THAT TIME. . And just in case you missed it, I am glad that you are not that person at that time! ETA: and consider Drama's post quoted here as well. Between the two of them they have put my thoughts perfectly into words. Thank you for that.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 12, 2017 9:40:53 GMT -5
Are you suggesting suicide is the right decision?
Personally for me, no. However I don't think it does any good to sit and cluck about the fact that I don't think it's the right decision because clearly the person who goes thru with it disagrees with me. Sitting around talking about how much better of a person I am for whatever reason doesn't help the situation at all. I have empathy for the person even if I would not go to such extremes. I recognize it's because I am lucky to either not have been pushed to that point, I'm not wired that way or likely a combination of both. All sitting around talking about what this person should or should not have done and all the ways I am "better" than him for not making the same choices does is make ME feel better and give me the opportunity to feel superior over someone else. It doesn't help the survivors to sit around and tell them how bad and selfish the person who committed suicide is does it? Does it really help a suicidal person to sit around and inform them about all the things they've done wrong, all the things wrong with them and how they are yet to make another bad decision and how that makes you better them? I think we could do a lot of good in society if we quit using every tragedy as an opportunity to gloat over how much better we are and how much in control of the universe we are we started having some freaking empathy for other people. At the very least keep your mouth shut if you can't manage the former. You don't know what other people are going thru so sitting at a family BBQ talking about how anyone on unemployment is a mooching drain on society isn't very nice. You can find other things to talk about and keep that opinion in your head. This is phenomenally important. I can say that I thought I was never wired this way until 12/2011. Then I got sick, had surgery and felt the kind of physical pain that I have never, EVER felt in my life. EVER. I had so many narcotics on board that I felt like I was in a stupor most of the time, along with the fact that the drugs were repressing my breathing (I was essentially 'maxed' out on narcotics) and I still hurt incredibly. For the first time, I considered suicide (fortunately, briefly). I also had an eye opening moment. What kind of pain must those who do commit suicide be in, if I felt the kind of pain that would drive someone who had never given it a passing thought considered it? Very few people reach that point (whether it is physical or mental pain), and I think that this is a sliding point across the population. What may drive one person to suicide obviously will not drive another. Do they have better coping mechanisms? I don't know. I also know that I cannot use a my benchmark for pain as someone else's benchmark. I don't, by any means whatsoever think that suicide is a correct decision. However, I do understand why someone would do it and empathize that they felt that this was the only way that they felt that they could alleviate their pain.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on May 12, 2017 9:56:39 GMT -5
I want to say that I don't understand people who say suicide is selfish, but after my sisters first attempt I know I thought and said that same thing. It was ignorance on my part that I couldn't even begin to empathize with her, and I was naive enough to think that everything was fixable. I know now that it isn't, and that I can't ever know what it's like to be her. It wasn't until I stopped trying to fix her and just offered to be there and accept her as-is that our relationship improved. I know her demons are always there now and I'm grateful that she wins many of the battles. If she had kids life would be so much more complicated. She would love them, but they wouldn't take away all of the other struggles, and they would likely make those worse. There just aren't any easy answers. Sometimes it can't be fixed.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 12, 2017 10:22:53 GMT -5
I can understand why people think suicide is selfish and even agree but it's not going to any good. Telling someone who is depressed enough to go thru with suicide they are a selfish human being is not going to solve the problem. Either they disagree with me or I am going to be reinforcing the thoughts that have driven them to contemplate it in the first place.
It doesn't help the survivors either to have other people telling them how selfish their loved one was. They've been thru enough they don't need the peanut gallery to start piling it on.
I have my thoughts, opinions and judgements but I try to keep them to myself because I don't know what it will take to drive someone over the edge.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 10:44:07 GMT -5
I don't know how close to the edge I was 12 years ago, but I was in a pretty bad place then for several months. I'm fairly certain that one of the things that kept me from going over (there were several) was that I am a horrible procrastinator and I over analyze every decision to the point that decisions get made for me sometimes. I'm not sure this is a good trait normally, but it kept me from downing a bottle of oxycodone and washing it down with alcohol...a bottle that I kept with me for two months. Looking back it seems crazy that I was even thinking that, but I'm not the same person I was then and life did seem to be completely out of control and I just wanted to escape.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 15:25:07 GMT -5
I just heard a related sad story this morning. A couple joined our church about 6 months ago- nice people in their 50s, didn't get to know them that well. Last month I heard the husband had died. I was talking to another church member today and asked if it had been expected (I figured that wasn't too intrusive and someone who doesn't want to volunteer anything else can just say yes or no). She told me it was a suicide. He'd lost his job as a technical writer (which I suspect is an endangered career these days, especially for someone over 50) and had never recovered emotionally from it. I can see that happening- my first husband worked for a well-regarded chemical firm (Engelhard, now part of BASF) and it was a huge source of pride. He never recovered fro being let go by Engelhard, either. He was about 40 and although he had some good consulting gigs for a few years, after those went away it was a downhill spiral. He was in and out of rehab twice and died from his poverty and alcohol abuse in 2010.
I'm just very grateful that our denomination (like most) has gotten past the attitude that people who commit suicide can't have a church funeral or be buried in consecrated ground. The wife still attends regularly so I guess she's found the same wonderful support I've found there since DH's death.
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quince
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Post by quince on May 12, 2017 15:31:04 GMT -5
Fuck it anyway, I think being selfish is OK. You get to make decisions that benefit you even if they don't benefit other people.
Exception being leaving minor children in a terrible position.
You should be kind to others, but you should also be kind to yourself.
I've been the person who has said that I wouldn't kill myself because some people I love might be sad- that's a shitty reason not to kill yourself. You shouldn't live just to make other people happy.
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finnime
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Post by finnime on May 12, 2017 16:17:48 GMT -5
Suicidal people are often convinced their loved ones, including children, would be better off without them. They believe they are the source and cause of pain in others. If they are responsible for the support of a family and can't provide what is needed, this has a terrible logic.
It is a tragic loss for family. I'm glad we are beginning to turn in a direction where experiencing and speaking of this loss is allowed. To feel shame at the cause of death for someone you love must be wrenching.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 13, 2017 15:59:13 GMT -5
Fuck it anyway, I think being selfish is OK. You get to make decisions that benefit you even if they don't benefit other people. Exception being leaving minor children in a terrible position. You should be kind to others, but you should also be kind to yourself. I've been the person who has said that I wouldn't kill myself because some people I love might be sad- that's a shitty reason not to kill yourself. You shouldn't live just to make other people happy. So you are in favor of people killing themselves?
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milee
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Post by milee on May 13, 2017 20:33:57 GMT -5
I'm in favor of respecting an individual's right to choose what to do with their own body.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on May 14, 2017 1:21:28 GMT -5
A poignant update on his original GoFundMe page was about the generosity of his friends in donating food. They had been trying to scrape up a dollar to buy 2 cans of veggies to feed 4 people. He splurged one night and cooked a "feast" with the donated food He said they couldn't do it again, but for one night it was rather glorious. His only negative was that his wife threw it up (must be chemo). I know there are holes, etc. in this story , but it makes me cry to just type it. At least the funeral was relatively cheap. He was a veteran so buried at the local national cemetery after cremation. Wow, that is sad. I just made up a bunch of pizza dough, not because I'm hungry, but because I was describing to someone how to make pepperoni rolls, and doing a poor job explaining the rolling process. I made two rolls just to take step by step pictures to go with my description. I'll be using the dough later this week, either for pizza or stromboli or calzones or something, but it does make you realize how fortunate you are.
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quince
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Post by quince on May 14, 2017 1:30:13 GMT -5
Yes, clearly me thinking that being selfish is not bad is me being in favor of people killing themselves.
I'm not in favor of people riding motorcycles or having alcohol on a regular basis, but I am unlikely to call them names for doing so or call it a terrible thing.
I don't have to be in favor of something to understand that other people make decisions that I might not make, and that is their right.
A member of my family has committed suicide. I am sorry they were in so much pain that they only felt they had one way out. I can't see all possible futures, so I don't know if they were right or not. People were hurt by their death. I don't think that people should live their lives if the only reason they are is so no one else feels bad.
This doesn't mean I think people whose reason to not kill themselves is only so they don't upset other people SHOULD kill themselves. Ideally, they would tell one of those people who they think will be upset what's going on with them, get help to find other reasons to life.
Sadly, sometimes things don't work out in an ideal fashion.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 14, 2017 6:09:13 GMT -5
I'm in favor of respecting an individual's right to choose what to do with their own body. Would you feel the same way if it were one of your sons? Because people I don't know or care about most likely have a mother somewhere that will be crushed if they follow through with committing suicide.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 14, 2017 6:47:14 GMT -5
I'm in favor of respecting an individual's right to choose what to do with their own body. Would you feel the same way if it were one of your sons? Yes.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 14, 2017 7:54:49 GMT -5
Would you feel the same way if it were one of your sons? Yes. that is bizarre to me. I can't imagine accepting my child's desire to commit suicide. I would do whatever I needed to do to fix whatever mental health issues were plaguing her. Because healthy people don't commit suicide. Obviously in the case of a painful, terminal illness I would probably think differently. But allowing my kid to make the decision to commit suicide because she is depressed is beyond comprehension to me.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on May 14, 2017 8:16:40 GMT -5
Seems to me one would want to work harder to fix the underlying problem of depression.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 14, 2017 10:00:19 GMT -5
It's bizarre to me that someone would think they have the necessary knowledge or the right to dictate to another person what that other person does to his/her body. But it's also bizarre to me that someone would think they are able to "fix" another person's mental health issues.
Recognizing that every person has certain personal rights does not mean that I agree with their decision or that I wouldn't try to help, persuade or support that person.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on May 14, 2017 11:38:16 GMT -5
that is bizarre to me. I can't imagine accepting my child's desire to commit suicide. I would do whatever I needed to do to fix whatever mental health issues were plaguing her. Because healthy people don't commit suicide. Obviously in the case of a painful, terminal illness I would probably think differently. But allowing my kid to make the decision to commit suicide because she is depressed is beyond comprehension to me. This is mom-signalling.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 14, 2017 13:24:45 GMT -5
that is bizarre to me. I can't imagine accepting my child's desire to commit suicide. I would do whatever I needed to do to fix whatever mental health issues were plaguing her. Because healthy people don't commit suicide. Obviously in the case of a painful, terminal illness I would probably think differently. But allowing my kid to make the decision to commit suicide because she is depressed is beyond comprehension to me. This is mom-signalling. I don't k ow what you mean. I was sincere when I said that thought process was bizarre to me. As a mom I would never accept that my child was so desperate that they committed suicide and I would forever be weighed down with guilt that I couldn't prevent it
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on May 14, 2017 13:27:23 GMT -5
It's bizarre to me that someone would think they have the necessary knowledge or the right to dictate to another person what that other person does to his/her body. But it's also bizarre to me that someone would think they are able to "fix" another person's mental health issues. Recognizing that every person has certain personal rights does not mean that I agree with their decision or that I wouldn't try to help, persuade or support that person. Then we will have to agree to disagree. When it comes to my child there is no way I wouldn't do everything I could to get get the help she needed to get better. I would never accept suicide, even if it meant locking her up and doing whatever I had to do to prevent it. I do realize that isn't always the option but I would damn well fight her every step of the way.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on May 14, 2017 13:29:02 GMT -5
It's fixable, sure, but not always by the person at the bottom of the hole, and the people who could write the checks...didn't. We've got a spotty safety net and a vocal culture that is ...unkind to those who can't fix/prevent/prepare for all their problems all by themselves in the USA. I would say it's probably not JUST money. I certainly would have the feeling with sick spouse/hungry kids and knowing there would be SS income after I passed? "They are better off without me." PLUS I wouldn't have to deal daily with the knowledge I'm continually failing my loved ones? I can see it. I'd probably be wrong, but when you're at that point, you don't see that there's more hope for the living than the dead, you just see trouble with only one way out.You're not wrong. I've been having those feelings again since all this BS about the healthcare crap has been happening. My stress level has been getting atrocious and so I've also been thinking about how I'm going to do it, pills being the most likely answer. My ceilings are too short to hang myself and slitting my wrists won't work. Can't afford a gun and I have no idea where my sister keeps hers. We'll be bankrupt in 2 hours if this thing passes because however much I'd like to get 3 or 4 jobs to take care of him, who the hell is going to be here to pick him up off the floor when he falls, which he has been doing with increasing regularity. He also needs someone there when he eats and drinks now because he has been choking a lot more as well. Not sure if it's the MS or because he's just a pig and inhales his food. I suspect it's both. I can't afford someone to come in when I'm not here, all his brothers have lives and my sister is worse than useless. His mother has dementia so the brother she lives with is busy dealing with her. 2 others work overnights as well, and the last has triplet babies and lives by Rhode Island. I've been getting worked up since, according to the God-fearing morons of government, DH decided he wanted MS because he ate too much bread and I should have stopped myself from getting a near-fatal illness when I was 6 months old that decided to bring me a seizure almost 40 years later. Yep. I feel so much better. So now I just wait for DH to kick the bucket which, if all goes the way they want, will be sooner rather than later. Then I shall shuffle off this mortal coil. The joy overwhelms me. Not. I've been offline for awhile, out of town and dealing with terrible stress as well (a job situation so awful I am planning to leave with or without another one lined up, sick husband who actually could have helped himself and a tax situation brought on by an inheritance my husband's sister refused to deal with and dumped on us). You've got it worse, though. I no longer wonder why people just pack up and leave their lives behind, going off the grid and simply disappearing. It makes sense, in an odd kind of way.
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justme
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Post by justme on May 14, 2017 15:07:46 GMT -5
Seems to me one would want to work harder to fix the underlying problem of depression. People would need easy affordable access to Healthcare in order to do that.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 14, 2017 15:17:11 GMT -5
Seems to me one would want to work harder to fix the underlying problem of depression. People would need easy affordable access to Healthcare in order to do that. You don't need affordable healthcare, you just need grit and determination.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on May 14, 2017 23:14:07 GMT -5
I don't k ow what you mean. I was sincere when I said that thought process was bizarre to me. As a mom I would never accept that my child was so desperate that they committed suicide and I would forever be weighed down with guilt that I couldn't prevent it Mom-signalling is a spin-off of virtue signalling, and almost as annoying. Virtue signalling is calling out something that has happened in a manner to call attention to how virtuous you are. It is very common among SJW bloggers. "Look at this horrible racist thing that happened, and if I had been there, it wouldn't have happened, because I would have called it out for the horrible racist thing it is and stopped it, etc, etc, etc." Essentially, it is fishing for compliments on what a wonderful virtuous person you are. Mom-signalling is similar, but instead of saying, "This horrible racist thing happened", they say, "I can't believe this horrible racist thing happened, as a mother I try to teach my children that we're all equal under God, so they don't see color or orientation or creed, etc, etc, etc." I.e. look what an amazing mom I am because my kids aren't like that, and I'm telling you how I am the reason they're not like that right now, so compliment me. It doesn't have to include a social justice issue like racism, it can be just as easily applied to other situation, like this one on suicide. "Well, I love my kid, and let me tell you, I'd do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING necessary to help them if they were depressed or suicidal, because I just love my kid so much, you just can't understand the love between a mother and child." Whether you realize it or not, you're mom-signalling, fishing for compliments on what a great mother you are.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on May 15, 2017 5:22:31 GMT -5
Huh? Who is constantly making up all these new idiotic terms?
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