Slowly Going Back Into Debt (Update/Trigger Warning #420)

[muttleynfelix]

Dec 13, 2016 7:50:38 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  When in doubt, do the math.  If you are bleeding, stop the hemorrhage and then find a way to tran$fu$e yourself via extra jobs, income, etc.   It's like dieting.  How do you lose weight.  You can do one of 2 things or both.  First, eat less.  Well, you can only eat less to a point where you are no longer eating.  And ,that works to a point.   Then, you need to exercise to burn more calories.  One without the other works a bit.  Both together are the only things that will work for the long term.

You have never had a situation hit you out of the blue that completely changes your finance? Something not your fault? Maybe in the long run it is temporary?

I doubt Shanen is going to have legal bills the rest of her life over this.

Not everything in life is planned. I know in 2013 when I was unexpectedly hospitalized for 5 days with a stomach big, I couldn't plan for that. I know I made a post in regards to that that made an older poster leave. If you planned for the worst every second, you wouldn't live your life. Sometimes you just have to take a chance and realize setbacks happeb, regroup and focus on what you can change.

[whoisjohngalt]

Two winters ago New England was hit wit a LOT of snow.  We were lucky that we only spent about $2K on the roof snow removal.  There were people who had to replace not only their roofs, but their walls as well.  I saw so so many  houses in the "construction" state once the spring allowed for it.

Yes, it's New England, yes, people expect snow, yes, there is home insurance.  But I can not even imagine how much $$$ people was spent in addition to all that.

[shanendoah]

I certainly didn't mean for this thread to start any arguments. Going back into debt is a temporary thing for us. I don't like it. C hates it. But I'm not certain we should raid retirement accounts to keep us from 6 months of credit card interest. He thinks maybe we should. But this is also me going into worst case scenario -if we end up in court, things will get a lot more expensive, and we'll need to raid retirement accounts for that.

The idea of me working a second job seems great, until you remember that my life isn't really my own right now. As it is, I still have my actual job pretty much only because I have an understanding boss and good benefits. I have had to miss a significant amount of time dealing with this situation. Right now, court dates and lawyer meetings tend to be predictable, but other things do pop up. I ended up with 2 medical appointments due to this the last two Mondays, and I didn't even know I'd need to schedule them until the Thursday before the first one.
Trying to get a second, part-time job, when I may need to call out, come late, leave early unpredictably isn't a recipe for keeping said second, part-time job.

Again, there are details that I am in no way willing to share here, at least not until the worst of the situation is resolved. On some level, I have to ask people to trust me that I have done the math, that I have thought about these issues, and am continuing to think about these issues. I am fine with being asked questions, but yeah, I did post it on WIR and not YM because I don't need people trying to give me legal or financial advice when they don't and won't know the whole situation.

For the record, this has not been "a couple" grand in expenses. We are currently at around $70k in legal fees. About $8k of that could come back to us (retainers) when all is said and done, but none of this includes the costs of actually going to trial. And there's the possibility of having as many as 3 trials, with as many different lawyers.
More could come back, if something happens and the other side decides to drop/settle things before we get too deep into pre-trial interviews, but right now, this is where I am. $70k of unexpected expenses in the last 6 months.

And while this is currently difficult, it would have been absolutely devastating, had we not been at the point where we were living and saving quite comfortably on one income. In that sense, it is only because of WIR/YM that we were even in a position financially to weather this as well as we have.

I have worked hard to get where I am, and am proud of that. I try to be both honest and sensitive about it here, like I am in real life, as I my friend group includes couples/people making $35k/yr to couples/people who are making $200k+/yr. We're all at different points and doing our best to make the decisions that are best for our families.

[HoneyBBQ]

Medical expenses and legal expenses are two things that will F you up and there's nothing you can do about it. NOTHING. There's no coupons to clip or short cuts to take. 

Anyone who is going through ANY legal proceeding or has huge medical bills has my sympathy. My husband just had $85,000 surgery. And that was just for the surgery itself, not the hospital stay for 4 days afterwards. Luckily we have very good medical insurance; but people didn't used to have very good options before the exchange. And even that may be about to run its course. 

Have some sympathy, shoob. 

[tcu2003]

I'm not "liking" your situation Shan, but that you guys are at least in a place to more or less weather it all until it comes to a resolution. For what it's worth, in your shoes (based on the little you've been able/willing to share), I also wouldn't raid the retirement accounts, or at least not yet.

Hang in there - I'm rooting for you guys! I've loved reading your stories over the years, and about Poptart. Hoping that 2017 brings about resolution for you all and a fresh start!

[Peace Of Mind]

Shanen - I'm sorry you are going through such an emotionally and financially hard time right now (along with other's here that shared).


I know you will work out the financial aspects of this situation when it's all said and done with since you have done it before and already know how to do that.  But I truly hope that the emotional part becomes much easier soon and that the case works out in your favor so this "hit" was well worth it.  (((Hugs)))  Legal battles are never easy and are so draining in every way. 


And some of you here don't know the difference between "being on a high horse" as opposed to "being obnoxious".  Ohhhh - you were just being nice!  Oops.    

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Iowa's exchange is BS.   They are down to two obscure companies and all they offer at least in our approved plan range are plans that cost twice as much as I pay now with $10k+ deductibles.

The algorithm they use to calculate whether or not you qualify booted me out when I was unemployed.   On DH's income of $30k a year we were not eligable for any plan on the exchange.   The site told me to go apply for medicaid.

Which we ended up using for the kids.  DH and I went on his insurance to the tune of $650 a month for horrible coverage.

There are quite a few people who fall thru the cracks.  The algorithm disqualifies them from the exchange but they make too much to use medicaid.   I feel for those people.

It's part of why I was so desperate to get rehired at UNMC and part of why I stay.   Health insurance can be an absolute budget killer but it's something you can't go without or at least really really really shouldn't.

[debthaven]

Drama, I have to admit I was kind of shocked to learn that it appears that the course you've been wanting to take for forever costs $212.

It's not a handbag or an outfit, it's the starting point on the road to a better income, hopefully. I'm glad you're finally doing it, but I find it sad that you've been torturing yourself for so long for that sum, for a new career.

Wishing you the best.

[giramomma]

Dec 13, 2016 16:41:38 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

There are quite a few people who fall thru the cracks.  The algorithm disqualifies them from the exchange but they make too much to use medicaid.   I feel for those people.

When medicaid goes to states in block grants...it's only going to get worse.

[whoisjohngalt]

Dec 13, 2016 16:35:05 GMT -5 HoneyBBQ said:

Medical expenses and legal expenses are two things that will F you up and there's nothing you can do about it. NOTHING. There's no coupons to clip or short cuts to take. 

Anyone who is going through ANY legal proceeding or has huge medical bills has my sympathy. My husband just had $85,000 surgery. And that was just for the surgery itself, not the hospital stay for 4 days afterwards. Luckily we have very good medical insurance; but people didn't used to have very good options before the exchange. And even that may be about to run its course. 

Have some sympathy, shoob. 

I have always always always said that most families are one medical emergency away from BK.  I didn't even think of legal bills, but yep, that would be another one.

[taz157]

Dec 13, 2016 16:41:38 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Iowa's exchange is BS.   They are down to two obscure companies and all they offer at least in our approved plan range are plans that cost twice as much as I pay now with $10k+ deductibles.

The algorithm they use to calculate whether or not you qualify booted me out when I was unemployed.   On DH's income of $30k a year we were not eligable for any plan on the exchange.   The site told me to go apply for medicaid.

Which we ended up using for the kids.  DH and I went on his insurance to the tune of $650 a month for horrible coverage.

There are quite a few people who fall thru the cracks.  The algorithm disqualifies them from the exchange but they make too much to use medicaid.   I feel for those people.

It's part of why I was so desperate to get rehired at UNMC and part of why I stay.   Health insurance can be an absolute budget killer but it's something you can't go without or at least really really really shouldn't.

We are currently on the state's exchange and have been since we moved. If I put what I hope to make after DH is employed, we make too much to qualify for any subsidy. If I put in what I'm anticipated to make in 2017 if unfortunately DH is still unemployed (which I hope he's employed soon for his sanity and mine), then we do qualify for a subsidy. Once DH is employed, we'd have to pay back the subsidy come tax time but I would think DH's future employer would offer health insurance and we wouldn't need it anymore (at least that is my hope).

In renewing for 2017 as open enrollments ends in 2 days, there isn't as many options and even less HSA-qualified plans than you would think based on the deductible amounts. I'm looking for a HSA-qualified plan as it is anyway. Also if you qualify for a subsidy, the number of plans dwindles even more. From 11 plans available in general, it goes to 5 that you can use the subsidy for. Between 2016 and 2017, there's also less insurance companies too as there were 4 insurance companies in 2016 and now only 2.

In the end, I really just want off the subsidy as some of the premiums amounts are . Granted in my prior job, I only had to pay a portion of the premiums while my employer picked up the rest so that just makes it look worse. I paid $450/month or so while the total premium was $1,100/month for the coverage I did have. What we're looking at now (without the subsidy) is $925/month.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 13, 2016 16:35:05 GMT -5 HoneyBBQ said:

Medical expenses and legal expenses are two things that will F you up and there's nothing you can do about it. NOTHING. There's no coupons to clip or short cuts to take. 

Anyone who is going through ANY legal proceeding or has huge medical bills has my sympathy. My husband just had $85,000 surgery. And that was just for the surgery itself, not the hospital stay for 4 days afterwards. Luckily we have very good medical insurance; but people didn't used to have very good options before the exchange. And even that may be about to run its course. 

Have some sympathy, shoob. 

Exactly!  My year of hell cost my insurance company about $750,000 and me $13,000.  I had 4 surgeries, each of which ran well over $100k and 6 months of IV antibiotics which ran about $7000/week.  This was with very good insurance, but the best surgeon I could find was not in my insurance network.  
Pre-YM, I would have been looking at bankruptcy.  I joined YM to try to get a handle on the $40k in credit card debt I had on a $35k salary.  I didn't follow all the edicts, just the ones that worked for me.  There would have been no way I could have cash flowed $1000+/mo medical bills on top of paying that out on credit cards.  Luckily, all of this had long been paid off before Murphy shit on my life.

I never posted any of this, so I have to wonder how many were like me.  I took advantage of someone else's willingness to brave the tough love in order to get my own house in order.

[haapai]

You can count me in that number. 

I screamed a lot at the computer screen and took frequent breaks from YM after seeing innocents asking for help and being shredded, but I learned. 

ETA:  A lot of what provoked the screaming could hardly be described as a variety of love, a feeding frenzy is more like it. 

[suesinfl]

Holy cow Mitch and Honey on the medical bills. I'm glad/hope that everything is ok now, but I hope to never have that kind of expenses. But truthfully, no one ever knows what type of medical or even legal expenses they may experience.

I wish both of your families the best.

[zibazinski]

I don't remember anyone getting shredded unless they kept making excuses as to why no ideas presented could possibly work. Can't cut cable, can't get a part-time job, can't get their spouse to work, always an excuse. That's how you get shredded. 

[zibazinski]

Don't hospitals set up payment plans for people anymore? Are you required to pay it off all at once? Legal bills, ugh.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 13, 2016 19:43:31 GMT -5 haapai said:

You can count me in that number. 

I screamed a lot at the computer screen and took frequent breaks from YM after seeing innocents asking for help and being shredded, but I learned. 

But if they were not so rough, would you have listened?  I wouldn't have.

Sometimes, you really need to see someone slapped down to see the gravity of YOUR situation.  In my case, many were not in near as deep shit as I was in and got shredded.  It was an eye opening experience.

The other eye opening experience was that I had a friend who wanted to unload her husband's house and was willing to sell it for peanuts.  Had I not had the debt, I could have easily done it myself.  And what makes me cry is that 10 years after, the house went back on the market at 100% more than I would have gotten the house for......AND it sold for more than that!  I was offered the house in 2000 for $95k, it went on the market in 2010 for $200k and sold for $210k.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 13, 2016 19:51:45 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Don't hospitals set up payment plans for people anymore? Are you required to pay it off all at once? Legal bills, ugh.

Yes, they do.  But in my experience they don't accept a $50 payment on a $5000 bill.  My surgeon was the source of my $4500 OON deductible.  So I was making a $700 payment on a $4500 bill (and insurance covered about $5500 of his charges).

Not only that, you get bills from a dozen different sources.  A hospital stay, with surgery meant you had a hospital bill, surgeon bill, anesthesiologist bill, lab bill, PT bill, radiology bill, radiologist bill.  After surgery, I had appointments with 3 specialists every 2 weeks.  Each of those had a $55 copay, so over $300/mo in copays.  Most of my antibiotics was covered, but my pain meds weren't.  Those ran about $100 every 2 weeks.  I had 6 freaking months of this!  

[haapai]

Dec 13, 2016 19:49:56 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I don't remember anyone getting shredded unless they kept making excuses as to why no ideas presented could possibly work. Can't cut cable, can't get a part-time job, can't get their spouse to work, always an excuse. That's how you get shredded. 

My memory might go back longer than yours.  I go back to MSN/LPW times. 

I seem to remember some posters who were generally pretty decent posters losing all reading comprehension skills when they smelled blood in the water.  It didn't take excuses to set them off.  It didn't take evasiveness to set them off.  All you had to do was describe a situation that scared them and you'd set off an amazing chorus of whistling past a graveyard. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 13, 2016 19:49:56 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I don't remember anyone getting shredded unless they kept making excuses as to why no ideas presented could possibly work. Can't cut cable, can't get a part-time job, can't get their spouse to work, always an excuse. That's how you get shredded. 

But some of this wasn't applicable.  No spouse, I had to keep minimal cable for Internet for school and as I was in school, I could not pick up a part time job.  Between my job and classes, I was gone from 6 am to 10 pm.

The thing is, for ME my going back to school paid more in the end than spending the little amount of time I had after my 50 hour salaried job working a min wage job.  Completing my MS got me a 25% raise, and getting into the doctoral program bumped my salary up another 40%.  

And yes.....there were arguments on YM about this.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 13, 2016 20:05:41 GMT -5 haapai said:

Dec 13, 2016 19:49:56 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I don't remember anyone getting shredded unless they kept making excuses as to why no ideas presented could possibly work. Can't cut cable, can't get a part-time job, can't get their spouse to work, always an excuse. That's how you get shredded. 

My memory might go back longer than yours.  I go back to MSN/LPW times. 

I seem to remember some posters who were generally pretty decent posters losing all reading comprehension skills when they smelled blood in the water.  It didn't take excuses to set them off.  It didn't take evasiveness to set them off.  All you had to do was describe a situation that scared them and you'd set off an amazing chorus of whistling past a graveyard. 

Yep.....YM is mild compared to what it used to be.  They were brutal.

[zibazinski]

Dec 13, 2016 20:03:50 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Dec 13, 2016 19:51:45 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Don't hospitals set up payment plans for people anymore? Are you required to pay it off all at once? Legal bills, ugh.

Yes, they do.  But in my experience they don't accept a $50 payment on a $5000 bill.  My surgeon was the source of my $4500 OON deductible.  So I was making a $700 payment on a $4500 bill (and insurance covered about $5500 of his charges).

Not only that, you get bills from a dozen different sources.  A hospital stay, with surgery meant you had a hospital bill, surgeon bill, anesthesiologist bill, lab bill, PT bill, radiology bill, radiologist bill.  After surgery, I had appointments with 3 specialists every 2 weeks.  Each of those had a $55 copay, so over $300/mo in copays.  Most of my antibiotics was covered, but my pain meds weren't.  Those ran about $100 every 2 weeks.  I had 6 freaking months of this!  

That's sad. I had a 5k hospital bill and they couldn't have been more helpful. Offered me $100 a month payment and told me if it got too hard to please let me know.

[milee]

Dec 13, 2016 16:35:05 GMT -5 HoneyBBQ said:

Medical expenses and legal expenses are two things that will F you up and there's nothing you can do about it. NOTHING. There's no coupons to clip or short cuts to take. 

Anyone who is going through ANY legal proceeding or has huge medical bills has my sympathy. My husband just had $85,000 surgery. And that was just for the surgery itself, not the hospital stay for 4 days afterwards. Luckily we have very good medical insurance; but people didn't used to have very good options before the exchange. And even that may be about to run its course. 

When we first started our business a competitor filed a bogus spite suit in an attempt to shut us down with legal fees before we could gain market share.  It was brutal.  And like you mention, there are no coupons or shortcuts.  When someone's suing you, if you don't respond and defend yourself, they get a judgment against you and win, so there is no choice but to defend.  And decent attorneys are expensive and (understandably) don't let clients run up much of a bill before you either need to pay them or they (again, understandably) stop working.  We ended up not just winning the case, but winning again after the competitor appealed.  But in the meantime, over a two year period of time we spent several hundred thousand dollars in legal fees, all at a time when we were so broke - starting a business isn't inexpensive - that we were rationing the shampoo and had $10 to spend on our little guy's Christmas presents.  Yes, legal fees bite the big one.  

As for health insurance, though, I think that must vary depending on where you live.  Both in AZ and FL we were buying individual healthcare policies for about 12 years prior to the ACA being in place and we were able to buy much better coverage at a lower price than we're able to get now.  At this point, there really are no other individual plans being sold other than the ones developed for the exchange and the plans are not only more expensive than what we previously had, they have a much smaller provider network.  So God help us if/when one of us does need surgery.  Finding a specialist, hospital and all the other stuff needed all within the network of one of the limited ACA plans is going to be a huge challenge.  So maybe some people didn't have good options prior to the exchange, but a lot of us did - and miss those pre-ACA options terribly.


 

[Deleted]

Dec 13, 2016 20:28:03 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Dec 13, 2016 20:03:50 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Yes, they do.  But in my experience they don't accept a $50 payment on a $5000 bill.  My surgeon was the source of my $4500 OON deductible.  So I was making a $700 payment on a $4500 bill (and insurance covered about $5500 of his charges).

Not only that, you get bills from a dozen different sources.  A hospital stay, with surgery meant you had a hospital bill, surgeon bill, anesthesiologist bill, lab bill, PT bill, radiology bill, radiologist bill.  After surgery, I had appointments with 3 specialists every 2 weeks.  Each of those had a $55 copay, so over $300/mo in copays.  Most of my antibiotics was covered, but my pain meds weren't.  Those ran about $100 every 2 weeks.  I had 6 freaking months of this!  

That's sad. I had a 5k hospital bill and they couldn't have been more helpful. Offered me $100 a month payment and told me if it got too hard to please let me know.

It totally depends on the hospital.  I'm located right between two major ones.  One will let you do payments and the other requires payment in full with almost no exceptions.

[Deleted]

I'll never be part of the 1%, but I do like hanging out with them.   I figure even if just a little bit rubs off on me I'll make the top 25%

[zibazinski]

Dec 13, 2016 22:36:38 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Dec 13, 2016 20:28:03 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

That's sad. I had a 5k hospital bill and they couldn't have been more helpful. Offered me $100 a month payment and told me if it got too hard to please let me know.

It totally depends on the hospital.  I'm located right between two major ones.  One will let you do payments and the other requires payment in full with almost no exceptions.

Blood from a stone. If you don't have it what are they going to do? Set up a payment plan or risk you declaring bk.

[Deleted]

Dec 13, 2016 22:54:19 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Dec 13, 2016 22:36:38 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

It totally depends on the hospital.  I'm located right between two major ones.  One will let you do payments and the other requires payment in full with almost no exceptions.

Blood from a stone. If you don't have it what are they going to do? Set up a payment plan or risk you declaring bk.

If you can't pay in full they send you to a third party financing that works with them.  I suppose if your credit sucks so does the interest rate.  If you just make payments to them below the outstanding balance they turn it over to collections after 90 days. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Dec 13, 2016 22:54:19 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Dec 13, 2016 22:36:38 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

It totally depends on the hospital.  I'm located right between two major ones.  One will let you do payments and the other requires payment in full with almost no exceptions.

Blood from a stone. If you don't have it what are they going to do? Set up a payment plan or risk you declaring bk.

Hound you to death.  Send you to collections.

One bill was paid by my insurance, and they billed me.  I referred them back to my insurance company, and while everyone was trying to figure things out, I got regular calls wanting to know why it wasn't paid.  They finally stopped calling when my insurance company finally sent them proof that the bill had been paid.

For another bill, I was sent to collection for a lousy $70.  The game was that they'd bill me, I'd pay it and 2 months later I received a check for what was overpaid.  After a year of lab work, 3 months after my last test, I called the lab and wanted a final bill for everything.  I owed $430 according to them, I wrote a check and sent it to them.   

A year later, I got a call from a collection agency for this lab bill.  Apparently, I owed $70 more, but in the intervening year, I did not get a single call or a piece of mail.  The first I knew of this was from the collection agency call.  I verified the bill, but was pissed.  I could have easily written a check for $500 as $430, I just wanted it all done.  The $70 shortage cost me about $110.  It sucked and there wasn't a damn thing I could do.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

shanendoah, I'm glad to hear from you. I'm sorry the struggle is still happening. Please know that almost all of us here are happy to commiserate (that's an oxymoron if I ever did write one  . I'll be thinking of you.  

[chen35]

Dec 13, 2016 12:04:21 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Dec 13, 2016 10:54:30 GMT -5 chen35 said:

And honestly, I don't boast about our success because it feels entirely unearned. I'm sure there is some impostor syndrome going on there, but we really have been quite lucky. So that makes me feel more inferior when I see what other people have accomplished through hard work.

ENTIRELY UNEARNED?  Oh ok.  Well, i guess you inherited a crap ton of money.  As for me, i earned every damn dime.

No inheritance. More of being in the extremely right place at the right time career wise. In 5 years I went from being a Sr. Accountant to being the CFO of a mid sized bank. One different decision in several instances would have made that not possible. While I did work hard, I can't say that anyone with my skill set and work ethic would be where I am. Luck had a lot to do with it. I don't think that makes my hard work less noteworthy, but it would disingenuous to say I did this all myself.