Slowly Going Back Into Debt (Update/Trigger Warning #420)

[NastyWoman]

Dec 12, 2016 12:54:43 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

In response to some of the comments here I believe that meritocracies are inherently cruel systems where if you struggle it's a character flaw rather than a feature of the system itself.  It's easy not to help people if you think it's their fault.

I have been saying for a long time my generation (GenX) is the first generation that doesn't get to assume we will do better than our parents.

New research backs you up.

The numbers are sobering: People born in the 1940s had a 92 percent chance of earning more than their parents did at age 30. For people born in the 1980s, by contrast, the chances were just 50-50.

There are two main reasons why today’s 30-somethings have a harder time than their parents did, according to the authors. First, the expansion of the gross domestic product has slowed since the 1950s, when growth was frequently above 5 percent a quarter. That means the economic pie is growing at a slower rate than it once did, so there’s less to go around. Second, the distribution of that growth is more unequal, and more benefits are accruing to those at the top. Those at the bottom, on the other hand, are not able to achieve as big a share as they once did. Their wages are not growing, so they are stuck at the same level as, or below, their parents.

I wonder though whether part of this is that over the last couple of generations each generation (on average) was more educated than the one before, allowing the younger group to move up higher on the career ladder. And by now we have reached a point where the swing moves in the different direction whereby employers are demanding more and more education at ever lower levels thereby effectively leaving behind a whole swath of GenX and GenY?

[Works4me]

The problem is "shit" happens in real life. People get laid off or let go, and jobs disappear. The only sector with consistent growth is in the service category meaning that someone who made $25 per hour is now lucky to be making half of that. And that is if s/he can get hired because everyone knows it is a stop gap measure. So many of those well paying, middle class jobs are no more.

The underemployed and the long term unemployed do not show in the unemployment numbers. Well-paid union jobs will never exist in the numbers of the past. Administrative and middle management have been cut and /or eliminated. Even the professions often are paying less, especially when adjusted for the current dollar value. Advances in technology are creating the need for a limited number of educated and flexible workers that are well paid.

In order to maintain their false sense of security, people are unwilling to admit that bad things happen to good people. No matter how well one is prepared, anyone can be laid off or let go. It's a hard lesson to learn and often times it takes more than one try. To mevthe difference here is people are willing to share their learning experiences.

[NastyWoman]

Dec 12, 2016 15:49:45 GMT -5 Works4me said:

The problem is "shit" happens in real life. People get laid off or let go, and jobs disappear. The only sector with consistent growth is in the service category meaning that someone who made $25 per hour is now lucky to be making half of that. And that is if s/he can get hired because everyone knows it is a stop gap measure. So many of those well paying, middle class jobs are no more.

The underemployed and the long term unemployed do not show in the unemployment numbers. Well-paid union jobs will never exist in the numbers of the past. Administrative and middle management have been cut and /or eliminated. Even the professions often are paying less, especially when adjusted for the current dollar value. Advances in technology are creating the need for a limited number of educated and flexible workers that are well paid.

In order to maintain their false sense of security, people are unwilling to admit that bad things happen to good people. No matter how well one is prepared, anyone can be laid off or let go. It's a hard lesson to learn and often times it takes more than one try. To me the difference here is people are willing to share their learning experiences.

 

[janee]

Shane (and others), so sorry you're going through such a rough time.  I'm much older than you, starting to think about retirement.  Looking back, there were times that things looked bleak, either monetarily or emotionally.  It does get better.  You have the right attitude to just shoulder through it.  Think about a year from now when things are resolved and you can work yourself out of it.  Keep saying "in a year or so this won't matter".

I hope knowing you have people that support and care about you in the online world helps you get through this.  So sorry you're having to deal with this.  Hugs and Good luck!

[suesinfl]

Dec 12, 2016 15:33:30 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Dec 12, 2016 15:21:36 GMT -5 dee27 said:

Drama,

This board is also comprised of people in different age groups, and it would be an unfair comparison to view your net worth versus someone who is retiring from their career. You have to do what works for your family at the time.

I know logically it is.  Emotionally I am already a perfectionist and I know it's time to walk away when I get depressed over how "perfect" YM appears to be.   Logically I also know everyone has a skeleton or two in their closet.

I've learned loads from the boards and they've motivated me in good ways like getting more involved in DH's retirement planning.   At the same time I have to sometimes work hard to remind myself that the net worts and stuff of YMers tends to be an exception to the norm.   I am not doing "bad" because I don't measure up.

This is so me. I get really depressed when salaries are posted, but then I need to remind myself that those with high salaries, but they have also worked hard to receive those salaries, also tend to live in HCOL or VHCOL areas, while I live in a LCOL area.
So I figure that between what they are paying for housing, taxes, etc. and what I am paying, it's not that big of a difference.

It's hard to save when you're a one income ($31,000) household with two teens. I just keep telling myself that it could be worse

[Value Buy]

Sorry to see so many members in financial straits. Good luck to all!

[suesinfl]

Thanks VB, but I think there are more around here (lurkers or members) that are experiencing the same situation, they just don't want to admit it on the boards. That's OK, I was like that for a long time, but I sure have learned a lot and am thankful for the insights that the members have posted.  That is why I'm still here. Love you guys.

[whoisjohngalt]

Dec 12, 2016 15:06:27 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I think part of the issue is YM tips towards the "1%"    If I compare myself to the world I actually live in then my situation looks A LOT different.

I have to take breaks from the boards because I start to compare myself and get depressed because no matter what I do I will never measure up.

It's "keeping up with the Joneses" only instead of wanting a bigger better car like my neighbors I am comparing my retirement savings.

Which in some ways is a GOOD thing, in other ways it seriously skews my perspective when bad things happen.    DH keeps reminding me that we could have been and could be A LOT worse off than we are and the fact that I am so good with our money is why we'll eventually bounce back.

this is such an unfair statement!

You keep bashing the board and keep making snarky comments about "YM ways", but there have been so many people on the old and current board who were open and honest about their struggles and how unpredictable life is.

And if there is a "be prepared for life" advice that goes around - how is that a terrible thing??

Yes, there is certainly some judgment going on, but so what??  If you are confident in your choices - don't pay attention to the judgment part.  Pay attention to the wealth of experiences and information and solutions that have been offered on here on pretty much every topic imaginable. 

And for the record - the board has been very VERY supportive of you, compared to many many other posters.  And yet, you repeatedly keep pointing out the flows of "YM way"

[Shooby]

Not sure what YM ways are. Numbers are numbers. They either add up or they dont.

[giramomma]

The older I've gotten, the more I've realized how fluid life is. I find I'm happier when I acknowledge the fluidity and work with it the best I can. Acceptance of a change of circumstances, for me, is better than fighting it.

And, while I can't control everything..I can try to make the best decisions I can with the information I have at that time. It means I don't beat myself up because our savings rate is not what it was pre-kids or that I should start picking fights with DH when he buys name brand cereal.. But, it also doesn't mean that I say screw it and spend all the money.

I also try to remember things are not always what they seem. There's costs and trade-off's for everything.

One of my coworkers has the life I've always dreamed of. When I found out, I was mad. I pouted, moped and couldn't sleep. That was supposed to me, dammit. I've worked hard enough..it's time for me to spend my days doing what I want and not having to worry about supporting a family.

My coworker has a new life because her second child was born at 23 weeks gestation. Spent a year in NICU with her child. At least now, they know the physical disabilities. I'm sure they won't know about the cognitive ones for quite some time.

One of my clients is the 1%. She basically is a single mom because of her husband's work schedule. For 20-something years. Can you imagine going that long and knowing you can never count on your partner beyond his paycheck. No, I don't envy that at all, even if they do have beautiful artwork on the walls.

[zibazinski]

Dec 12, 2016 15:41:19 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Dec 12, 2016 12:57:18 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

I've noticed that most of my friends are still in the same spot financially that they were a decade ago.  A lot of it is because of losing jobs, which creates debt and eats up savings.

A bad string of luck with jobs over the last few years has screwed up my whole program. I'm finally starting to see light at the end of the tunnel. The goal for 2017 is to get my financial situation in order. It's going to require a lot of work, but I need to do it. I got a weekend job to help.

That's the YM way and attitude. Under or unemployed? Get some kind of work even if it's babysitting or uber driving. We had a poster who delivered pizzas. He admitted it and wasn't ashamed of it. YM attitude is do what needs doing.

[zibazinski]

Babysitters around here get 10-15 bucks an hour CASH. Pet sitting is also lucrative.

[Shooby]

  When in doubt, do the math.  If you are bleeding, stop the hemorrhage and then find a way to tran$fu$e yourself via extra jobs, income, etc.   It's like dieting.  How do you lose weight.  You can do one of 2 things or both.  First, eat less.  Well, you can only eat less to a point where you are no longer eating.  And ,that works to a point.   Then, you need to exercise to burn more calories.  One without the other works a bit.  Both together are the only things that will work for the long term.

[Sharon]

Shooby it will be a long way down when you fall off that high horse you are sitting on.

Life happens to even the most prepared people.  Where I work we haven't had anything close to a decent raise in years.  We consider ourselves lucky if we get anything in a given year.  This year if you meet all your criteria will you get 2 extra vacation days or 2 $100 gift certificates to a place of your choosing.  While it is something it does very little to help with the rising costs.  We have had basically no turnover because people know this is just what it is in this area.  The attitude is this sucks but at least we do have a job.

[Shooby]

  What are you talking about?  I am talking about doing the math. You have to make adjustments based on what you have or don't have.  I didnt' know that was a "High Horse".  Wow.  

[chen35]

Dec 12, 2016 15:06:27 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I think part of the issue is YM tips towards the "1%"    If I compare myself to the world I actually live in then my situation looks A LOT different.

I have to take breaks from the boards because I start to compare myself and get depressed because no matter what I do I will never measure up.

It's "keeping up with the Joneses" only instead of wanting a bigger better car like my neighbors I am comparing my retirement savings.

Which in some ways is a GOOD thing, in other ways it seriously skews my perspective when bad things happen.    DH keeps reminding me that we could have been and could be A LOT worse off than we are and the fact that I am so good with our money is why we'll eventually bounce back.

We tip towards the 1% income wise. YM still makes me feel like crap about how much we have saved.

[whoisjohngalt]

Dec 13, 2016 10:18:40 GMT -5 chen35 said:

Dec 12, 2016 15:06:27 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I think part of the issue is YM tips towards the "1%"    If I compare myself to the world I actually live in then my situation looks A LOT different.

I have to take breaks from the boards because I start to compare myself and get depressed because no matter what I do I will never measure up.

It's "keeping up with the Joneses" only instead of wanting a bigger better car like my neighbors I am comparing my retirement savings.

Which in some ways is a GOOD thing, in other ways it seriously skews my perspective when bad things happen.    DH keeps reminding me that we could have been and could be A LOT worse off than we are and the fact that I am so good with our money is why we'll eventually bounce back.

We tip towards the 1% income wise. YM still makes me feel like crap about how much we have saved.

I never understood that sentiment (not picking you on chen, I've seen the same from various posters).

I know (well, 99.99% sure) that I will never have the kind of money some posters have, BUT!!!

I couldn't run the kind of business that milee runs.  I don't understand investing the way phil5185 does.  And rentals are probably not for me either.  I so wanted to start a small business - but again, not my thing.  So, when swamp did it - HUGE kudos to her.  I can not even pronounce what HoneyBBQ does for a living, so I can't make that kind of income either.

And unlike other places, people who are successful here all have certain skills and worked hard and worked LONG to get where they are.  And they don't boast about it - they share their experience and willing to mentor.  (I still feel guilty about all the time Milee spent trying to help me with my idea).

May be I am oblivious to things but I don't recall people looking down on posters who don't have as much. 

I think this board is an excellent example of what you can achieve.

[chen35]

It's not specifically people looking down on me. I've never put my own financial situation out there enough for that to happen.

It's just seeing people my age who have more saved up and feeling inferior. I should have done more. In my case it's more self inflicted.

[chen35]

And honestly, I don't boast about our success because it feels entirely unearned. I'm sure there is some impostor syndrome going on there, but we really have been quite lucky. So that makes me feel more inferior when I see what other people have accomplished through hard work.

[whoisjohngalt]

Dec 13, 2016 10:52:36 GMT -5 chen35 said:

It's not specifically people looking down on me. I've never put my own financial situation out there enough for that to happen.

It's just seeing people my age who have more saved up and feeling inferior. I should have done more. In my case it's more self inflicted.

You should!  We haven't had "let's tear down your income/budget" thread in a loooong time

I probably could have done better job with investing, but I am very very risk averse.  I kept nagging Phil about his "magical" 11% return fund.  He kept talking about S&P500 so I just did that.

Don't feel inferior!  I think YM crowd is like Ivy League of wealth building.  Between running businesses, investing in RE, stock market, having discipline and foresight to prepare for life's challenges - it truly is a unique group of people. 

But I also think it should give people hope that it IS doable bc it shows all kinds of different paths that can be taken.

[HoneyBBQ]

Just seeing this because I was tagged.

Sorry for your struggles, shan. Sometimes you just have to focus on the light at the end of the tunnel and wait. 

I know I am in the 1% here but a)I try not to brag and b)see my signature and c) I did live on very minimal income for a looong time to get here. Now, I did not have a family to feed but I did have my share of "oh shit, my expenses are WAY more than my income" moments. I was fortunate to know there was a light at the end of the tunnel and Shan, I think you can see the light too when all your legal issues are through with.

And I agree, 2016 can DIAF as far as I'm concerned. 

[milee]

Dec 13, 2016 10:35:01 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Dec 13, 2016 10:18:40 GMT -5 chen35 said:

 (I still feel guilty about all the time Milee spent trying to help me with my idea).

Don't!  It's always interesting to talk to people about their ideas.  I enjoyed it and wish you the best, no matter what path you take.  

[Shooby]

Sorry but some on this board choose to engage in "magical thinking'.  You want something to be a certain way and hope that it will be.  That somehow all the numbers will work out in the end.  If that is your approach to life, then fine and dandy.  But i look at real numbers, so carry on.

[Shooby]

  Some of you might want to try "High Horse Living".  It actually works.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Dec 12, 2016 23:19:33 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Dec 12, 2016 15:06:27 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I think part of the issue is YM tips towards the "1%"    If I compare myself to the world I actually live in then my situation looks A LOT different.

I have to take breaks from the boards because I start to compare myself and get depressed because no matter what I do I will never measure up.

It's "keeping up with the Joneses" only instead of wanting a bigger better car like my neighbors I am comparing my retirement savings.

Which in some ways is a GOOD thing, in other ways it seriously skews my perspective when bad things happen.    DH keeps reminding me that we could have been and could be A LOT worse off than we are and the fact that I am so good with our money is why we'll eventually bounce back.

this is such an unfair statement!

You keep bashing the board and keep making snarky comments about "YM ways", but there have been so many people on the old and current board who were open and honest about their struggles and how unpredictable life is.

And if there is a "be prepared for life" advice that goes around - how is that a terrible thing??

Yes, there is certainly some judgment going on, but so what??  If you are confident in your choices - don't pay attention to the judgment part.  Pay attention to the wealth of experiences and information and solutions that have been offered on here on pretty much every topic imaginable. 

And for the record - the board has been very VERY supportive of you, compared to many many other posters.  And yet, you repeatedly keep pointing out the flows of "YM way"

Ym does tend to lean towards higher income earners.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I was trying to explain my own attitude towards money and how it relates to the boards.

I've learned a lot from the boards but I'm a perfectionist which the board can tend to feed. I'm never going to be perfect.

So that's when I walk away from ym for awhile. Keeping up with the Jones is bad regardless if I'm doing it by buying a bigger better car or beating the crap out of myself over my emergency fund.

If it bothers you that I am not always positive towards the boards you are entitled to your opinion. You also don't have to read my posts anymore than I need to be on ym.

[Shooby]

I guess we are just supposed to HipHooray everyone's choices.

[Shooby]

Dec 13, 2016 10:18:40 GMT -5 chen35 said:

Dec 12, 2016 15:06:27 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I think part of the issue is YM tips towards the "1%"    If I compare myself to the world I actually live in then my situation looks A LOT different.

I have to take breaks from the boards because I start to compare myself and get depressed because no matter what I do I will never measure up.

It's "keeping up with the Joneses" only instead of wanting a bigger better car like my neighbors I am comparing my retirement savings.

Which in some ways is a GOOD thing, in other ways it seriously skews my perspective when bad things happen.    DH keeps reminding me that we could have been and could be A LOT worse off than we are and the fact that I am so good with our money is why we'll eventually bounce back.

We tip towards the 1% income wise. YM still makes me feel like crap about how much we have saved.

So u care what non 1%ers say Why?

[Shooby]

Dec 13, 2016 10:54:30 GMT -5 chen35 said:

And honestly, I don't boast about our success because it feels entirely unearned. I'm sure there is some impostor syndrome going on there, but we really have been quite lucky. So that makes me feel more inferior when I see what other people have accomplished through hard work.

ENTIRELY UNEARNED?  Oh ok.  Well, i guess you inherited a crap ton of money.  As for me, i earned every damn dime.

[swamp]

Dec 13, 2016 11:32:47 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  Some of you might want to try "High Horse Living".  It actually works.

No thanks. It hurts when you fall off

[justme]

Dear lord, did some of you skip over the part in the op where she put it on this board so she wouldn't get the put on your big girl panties and cut expenses talk? Up until this incidence I don't recall her ever being one of the posters that's like oh I have no money but look at the new car I brought. I'm pretty sure she mostly knows what to do.