NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Jul 31, 2016 8:05:47 GMT -5
Sorry Didn't mean to raise a ruckus .......... just trying to weed out the $100K student loans in basket weaving at the university level. Seriously though. No offense but this seems like trolling....If you honestly thing I'm a troll ....... you are not required to answer my legitimate question. We sorta knew what the letters meant but not real sure. I think trade and tech schools are wonderful, the university level should not offer any 'dumb-bell' classes under any circumstances. If such a class is needed after an entrance exam, then the local community college is there.
I thought that was what grades K thru 12 were for. Been ages since I have been involved with college entrance but have they dumbed things down to the point that college students need remedial courses. Sounds like something needs to be done way back down the ladder before reaching college??
Can't imagine taking out student loans for remedial classes!!! ETA: IMO if someone needs remedial classes they possibly don't belong in college
Also wonder if that is why there are community colleges? Are they not teaching on a college level?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 31, 2016 8:42:07 GMT -5
Sorry Didn't mean to raise a ruckus .......... just trying to weed out the $100K student loans in basket weaving at the university level. Seriously though. No offense but this seems like trolling....If you honestly thing I'm a troll ....... you are not required to answer my legitimate question. We sorta knew what the letters meant but not real sure. I think trade and tech schools are wonderful, the university level should not offer any 'dumb-bell' classes under any circumstances. If such a class is needed after an entrance exam, then the local community college is there.
I thought that was what grades K thru 12 were for. Been ages since I have been involved with college entrance but have they dumbed things down to the point that college students need remedial courses. Sounds like something needs to be done way back down the ladder before reaching college??
Can't imagine taking out student loans for remedial classes!!! ETA: IMO if someone needs remedial classes they possibly don't belong in college
Also wonder if that is why there are community colleges? Are they not teaching on a college level?
There are people who are brilliant in all but one subject. I know for a fact that Princeton offers remedial math classes to its students.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 31, 2016 8:43:52 GMT -5
People can complain about whatever they want to. If you want to spend $100k on something worthless, knock yourself out! Just pay all that money back if it's a loan. And why does everyone assume the debt is $100k? I had about $20k in loans. My mom took out parent loans - don't know the amount but they are her responsibility. My 1st Bachelor's loans are paid. I am about to take out about $21k this year. If I that amount out each year, I will be at over $100k after I'm done. I plan to pay it all back. It will suck major ass, but I will do it (and hopefully have a better paying job to help with that). Since schools loans can't be discharged, someone's decision to spend $100k on school doesn't affect you in any way and is really not your business no matter how foolish you think it is. I disagree with your NOYB position. If people take out loans that they can't or won't repay, it affects all of us. Loans that don't get repaid result in higher interest rates for other borrowers (us). And make it more difficult for other borrowers to get credit. One has only to think back to 2009 - 2014 to see the impact of unpaid loans on the general public. But you can't discharge student loans in bankruptcy, so they will have to be paid back. How does that affect other borrowers?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 31, 2016 8:46:32 GMT -5
Don't believe the hype around STEM...particularly the S. I have a hard science degree--several, actually, from top schools. I wouldn't recommend anyone go the S route. They did a survey and found that the money and job growth was all in TEM. The shortage of US science degree holders is a total myth. It sounds good to politicians (and to businesses that want to increase the worker supply and hold wages down)...been debunked many, many times but the idiot speeches just keep coming With my 11 years of post-HS school/training in S, I make roughly a third of what DH does with his E degrees. Same school for the PhD, as to the rest...meh, he has a master's as well; I did a fellowship and a postdoc at an equally well rated school. I'm likely one of the lower earners among my graduating class while he's one of the higher ones in his, but the average holds. I think business/accounting and computer science/programming are good bets from a field stability/growth point of view. However, a psychology BA that you use for marketing and/or sales will likely earn you more than a STEM PhD if you're good at your job. I wouldn't recommend hard and fast rules so much; I'd recommend talking to your kid and making sure (s)he has a plan, an idea of how (insanely) much tuition and other expenses cost, and what the effects of student loans would be on his/her quality of life. Also what a real danger outsourcing to China and India is. Programming can be outsourced without even trying very hard; a plumber or electrician has to be on site. I graduated with a bunch of CS majors. None of them could find jobs in their field. I guess that's changed.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Jul 31, 2016 8:52:20 GMT -5
Well, let's hope someone gets a teaching degree so some one can be teaching all the STEM folks what they need to know or are they coming out of the womb with the STEM degree in hand?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 9:07:37 GMT -5
Also wonder if that is why there are community colleges? Are they not teaching on a college level? Yes and no. They offer remedial classes for kids who are ill-prepared in certain subjects. Those don't count towards your degree, so you end up borrowing more and taking longer to get through. I took a college-credit level class in Geology a few years ago and it was just as rigorous as my classes from the years when I got my degree. ]But you can't discharge student loans in bankruptcy, so they will have to be paid back. How does that affect other borrowers? Some people just can't pay them off. Accounting rules require that loans be written off as bad debts after a certain period of non-payment, because the chance of them ever being paid off is minimal so the amount owed is no longer a valid asset. Or, eventually the debtor dies and there's not enough money in the estate to pay them off.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 31, 2016 9:22:44 GMT -5
I disagree with your NOYB position. If people take out loans that they can't or won't repay, it affects all of us. Loans that don't get repaid result in higher interest rates for other borrowers (us). And make it more difficult for other borrowers to get credit. One has only to think back to 2009 - 2014 to see the impact of unpaid loans on the general public. But you can't discharge student loans in bankruptcy, so they will have to be paid back. How does that affect other borrowers? If you recall from carls posts, loans are forgiven if you make below a certain amount. I can't say I know the details as I never heard of that before Carl posted about it. Im not ok with that, btw. that takes away the incentive to do homework before taking out a ton of loans.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 31, 2016 9:27:03 GMT -5
Why is the aim to make a ton of money? I don't think the objective needs to be about money. But, if you make choices that lead to a low paying career, I think you kind of give up the opportunity to fuss about the difficulty paying student loans, or not living the lifestyle you might like. You had the same opportunity to make other choices as other people. Fair enough. But the parallel to that would dictate that those who made choices that led to higher-paying careers give up the opportunity to complain about the long hours they put in or the extra work required, right? They had the same opportunity to make other choices as other people.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 31, 2016 9:32:39 GMT -5
Federal student loans can be forgiven under a fairly narrow set of circumstances. If your income prevents you from paying the full monthly amount due, you can make income-based payments until your income increases enough to make the full payment. If it never does, after 25 years the loan balance is discharged and you're taxed on the imputed income. If you work in a public service position for 10 years or more, you can apply to have the loans discharged after 120 income-based payments.
That latter portion was signed into law by George W. Bush. Obama actually tried to put limits on it, unsuccessfully.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 9:33:45 GMT -5
But you can't discharge student loans in bankruptcy, so they will have to be paid back. How does that affect other borrowers? If you recall from carls posts, loans are forgiven if you make below a certain amount. I can't say I know the details as I never heard of that before Carl posted about it. Im not ok with that, btw. that takes away the incentive to do homework before taking out a ton of loans. I thought her loan forgiveness was for working in public service, not because of her income?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 31, 2016 9:38:33 GMT -5
I don't think the objective needs to be about money. But, if you make choices that lead to a low paying career, I think you kind of give up the opportunity to fuss about the difficulty paying student loans, or not living the lifestyle you might like. You had the same opportunity to make other choices as other people. Fair enough. But the parallel to that would dictate that those who made choices that led to higher-paying careers give up the opportunity to complain about the long hours they put in or the extra work required, right? They had the same opportunity to make other choices as other people. So where will we put all these people? Science is already glutted and salary reflects that. Nursing is becoming saturated around here because it's been considered the hit field for awhile. I'm not saying its bad pay but it costs $80K to get your BSN which the hospitals are all requiring you now have. There are so many people that the hospitals are making a lot if positions on call with only a handful of techs and nurses being full time. Same thing will happen in other hot fields. You're not going to command a huge salary if there are enough people for employers to be choosy and wait for someone willing to work for less. Instead of trying to control what people major in why don't we change how the student loan system works. If you want to give an 18 year old three figures in debt you should have to carry the same risks as a regular loan company. If colleges know that lenders aren't going to hand out that kind of money anymore then they won't be able to keep charging prices that reflect it. Trying to force people in certain majors is only going to dilute the market and cause less and less qualified people to start applying as the colleges quickly churn out their latest money makers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 9:40:15 GMT -5
I thought that was what grades K thru 12 were for. Been ages since I have been involved with college entrance but have they dumbed things down to the point that college students need remedial courses. Sounds like something needs to be done way back down the ladder before reaching college??
Can't imagine taking out student loans for remedial classes!!! ETA: IMO if someone needs remedial classes they possibly don't belong in college
Also wonder if that is why there are community colleges? Are they not teaching on a college level?
There are people who are brilliant in all but one subject. I know for a fact that Princeton offers remedial math classes to its students. I had to take a remedial math class to get into college. I got a 34 on my Science ACT and a 17 on Math! I sucked at math in high school (probably due to never doing homework, it's not exactly a class you can just listen to and learn it), but once I hit college and applied myself, I caught on really quickly and ended up getting A's in everything but Calc...I hated Calc. My only C in college.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 31, 2016 9:45:26 GMT -5
But you can't discharge student loans in bankruptcy, so they will have to be paid back. How does that affect other borrowers? If you recall from carls posts, loans are forgiven if you make below a certain amount. I can't say I know the details as I never heard of that before Carl posted about it. Im not ok with that, btw. that takes away the incentive to do homework before taking out a ton of loans. It's forgiven after working in certain types of government jobs. I believe it's ten years. I don't see the problem with that.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 31, 2016 9:57:06 GMT -5
If you recall from carls posts, loans are forgiven if you make below a certain amount. I can't say I know the details as I never heard of that before Carl posted about it. Im not ok with that, btw. that takes away the incentive to do homework before taking out a ton of loans. It's forgiven after working in certain types of government jobs. I believe it's ten years. I don't see the problem with that. I believe the original intent was to get certain professions to move to undeserved areas where they won't get the type of pay they can expect elsewhere. In other words the OBGYN agrees to move to middle of nowhere Nebraska where she's the only doctor in a run down hospital in exchange for dismissing her loans. Otherwise it makes more sense to stay and work at Nebraska med with the money, prestige and leading edge research that comes with it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 31, 2016 10:09:55 GMT -5
If you recall from carls posts, loans are forgiven if you make below a certain amount. I can't say I know the details as I never heard of that before Carl posted about it. Im not ok with that, btw. that takes away the incentive to do homework before taking out a ton of loans. I thought her loan forgiveness was for working in public service, not because of her income? I might not be remembering correctly. I thought income was tied to it. Im not knowledgable at all
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 31, 2016 10:12:00 GMT -5
Fair enough. But the parallel to that would dictate that those who made choices that led to higher-paying careers give up the opportunity to complain about the long hours they put in or the extra work required, right? They had the same opportunity to make other choices as other people. So where will we put all these people? Science is already glutted and salary reflects that. Nursing is becoming saturated around here because it's been considered the hit field for awhile. I'm not saying its bad pay but it costs $80K to get your BSN which the hospitals are all requiring you now have. There are so many people that the hospitals are making a lot if positions on call with only a handful of techs and nurses being full time. Same thing will happen in other hot fields. You're not going to command a huge salary if there are enough people for employers to be choosy and wait for someone willing to work for less. Instead of trying to control what people major in why don't we change how the student loan system works. If you want to give an 18 year old three figures in debt you should have to carry the same risks as a regular loan company. If colleges know that lenders aren't going to hand out that kind of money anymore then they won't be able to keep charging prices that reflect it. Trying to force people in certain majors is only going to dilute the market and cause less and less qualified people to start applying as the colleges quickly churn out their latest money makers. But why do colleges charge wih high costs in the first place? When we had a thread on it, those in academia said it was justified. And if we allow loans to be discharged no one without rich parents willing to co-sign will be able to get student loans. Regardless of the amount involved, an unemployed 18 year old will not qualify for a loan. So then we are back to only the rich getting an education
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 31, 2016 10:14:01 GMT -5
I thought her loan forgiveness was for working in public service, not because of her income? I might not be remembering correctly. I thought income was tied to it. Im not knowledgable at all You have to be on the income based repayment plan I believe. The requirements to get it forgiven eventually are pretty strict at least for federal. I have no idea how private works.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 31, 2016 10:15:04 GMT -5
If you recall from carls posts, loans are forgiven if you make below a certain amount. I can't say I know the details as I never heard of that before Carl posted about it. Im not ok with that, btw. that takes away the incentive to do homework before taking out a ton of loans. It's forgiven after working in certain types of government jobs. I believe it's ten years. I don't see the problem with that. Injust googled. That's not correct. Your repayments are based on income. If after 20 years you still have a balance it is forgiven. I skimmed the analysis so Im sure someone will point out if Im wrong. I can't post the link because Im on my phone. But it was enacted in 2014
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 31, 2016 10:19:45 GMT -5
It's forgiven after working in certain types of government jobs. I believe it's ten years. I don't see the problem with that. Injust googled. That's not correct. Your repayments are based on income. If after 20 years you still have a balance it is forgiven. I skimmed the analysis so Im sure someone will point out if Im wrong. I can't post the link because Im on my phone. But it was enacted in 2014 It was enacted in 2007 under George W. Bush. There were some changes made in 2014 to lower the amount of income on which the payment amount is based, but it's not retroactive to those who took part before 2014. Obama also tried to reduce the total amount that could be forgiven to $58K, unsuccessfully. Unless your loan is forgiven under the fairly strict Public Service Loan Forgiveness requirements, you're taxed on any amount forgiven. You don't just get to work a low-paying job for 20 years and hop away scot free.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 31, 2016 10:23:13 GMT -5
Injust googled. That's not correct. Your repayments are based on income. If after 20 years you still have a balance it is forgiven. I skimmed the analysis so Im sure someone will point out if Im wrong. I can't post the link because Im on my phone. But it was enacted in 2014 It was enacted in 2007 under George W. Bush. There were some changes made in 2014 to lower the amount of income on which the payment amount is based, but it's not retroactive to those who took part before 2014. Obama also tried to reduce the total amount that could be forgiven to $58K, unsuccessfully. Unless your loan is forgiven under the fairly strict Public Service Loan Forgiveness requirements, you're taxed on any amount forgiven. You don't just get to work a low-paying job for 20 years and hop away scot free. I would rather pay the tax on $100k than pay back the $100k....
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 31, 2016 10:24:04 GMT -5
So where will we put all these people? Science is already glutted and salary reflects that. Nursing is becoming saturated around here because it's been considered the hit field for awhile. I'm not saying its bad pay but it costs $80K to get your BSN which the hospitals are all requiring you now have. There are so many people that the hospitals are making a lot if positions on call with only a handful of techs and nurses being full time. Same thing will happen in other hot fields. You're not going to command a huge salary if there are enough people for employers to be choosy and wait for someone willing to work for less. Instead of trying to control what people major in why don't we change how the student loan system works. If you want to give an 18 year old three figures in debt you should have to carry the same risks as a regular loan company. If colleges know that lenders aren't going to hand out that kind of money anymore then they won't be able to keep charging prices that reflect it. Trying to force people in certain majors is only going to dilute the market and cause less and less qualified people to start applying as the colleges quickly churn out their latest money makers. But why do colleges charge wih high costs in the first place? When we had a thread on it, those in academia said it was justified. And if we allow loans to be discharged no one without rich parents willing to co-sign will be able to get student loans. Regardless of the amount involved, an unemployed 18 year old will not qualify for a loan. So then we are back to only the rich getting an education You think they'd charge less if only people who are STEM majors can get loans? They'll all start charging more to those schools to make up for not getting it from other departments. They'll also do whatever it takes to get students which will lead to the dreaded "dumbing down" of the workforce that ym likes to bitch about. Not to mention you'd be paying for even fancier/bigger labs to introduce all this people to real world applications. The tiny O Chem lab that currently houses 20 students won't cut it. Not to mention you can charge even more if you make more mandatory lab courses. If you don't want to make loans dischareable then private loans should have to operate under the sane regulations as federal. You can only take out $15K in federal Stafford's at a time and that's if you qualify for both subsidized and unsubsidized. If we don't want to do that either then we can't complain about people being able to get a six figure loan for an English degree. We've decided the loan company is free to lend to whoever and whatever amount they please. I am not in favor of forcing people into certain majors in order to control student loan costs when they aren't the ones setting the price tag or writing the checks.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 10:26:29 GMT -5
It was enacted in 2007 under George W. Bush. There were some changes made in 2014 to lower the amount of income on which the payment amount is based, but it's not retroactive to those who took part before 2014. Obama also tried to reduce the total amount that could be forgiven to $58K, unsuccessfully. Unless your loan is forgiven under the fairly strict Public Service Loan Forgiveness requirements, you're taxed on any amount forgiven. You don't just get to work a low-paying job for 20 years and hop away scot free. I would rather pay the tax on $100k than pay back the $100k.... But they've also been paying on it for 20 years.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 31, 2016 10:30:05 GMT -5
But why do colleges charge wih high costs in the first place? When we had a thread on it, those in academia said it was justified. And if we allow loans to be discharged no one without rich parents willing to co-sign will be able to get student loans. Regardless of the amount involved, an unemployed 18 year old will not qualify for a loan. So then we are back to only the rich getting an education You think they'd charge less if only people who are STEM majors can get loans? They'll all start charging more to those schools to make up for not getting it from other departments. They'll also do whatever it takes to get students which will lead to the dreaded "dumbing down" of the workforce that ym likes to bitch about. Not to mention you'd be paying for even fancier/bigger labs to introduce all this people to real world applications. The tiny O Chem lab that currently houses 20 students won't cut it. Not to mention you can charge even more if you make more mandatory lab courses. If you don't want to make loans dischareable then private loans should have to operate under the sane regulations as federal. You can only take out $15K in federal Stafford's at a time and that's if you qualify for both subsidized and unsubsidized. If we don't want to do that either then we can't complain about people being able to get a six figure loan for an English degree. We've decided the loan company is free to lend to whoever and whatever amount they please. I am not in favor of forcing people into certain majors in order to control student loan costs when they aren't the ones setting the price tag or writing the checks. You went off on a rant and never answered my question. Nowhere in any of my posts did I say that only stem people should be able to take out ridiculous loans. What I said was as a business person, the payback on spending over $100k (no one wants to consider four years of lost wages) makes no sense if you will wind up wih a job making $40k. I live in a LCOLA and I pay the accounts payable person $37k and that is not a degreed position. So as far as a return on investment, that is a poor one. In my opinion only. But if someone wants to take on debt to make $40k a year that is totally their decision. As log as they aren't going into it with the plan to not pay it back. Then I have a major issue with it Now can you answer what I actually asked?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 31, 2016 10:31:46 GMT -5
I would rather pay the tax on $100k than pay back the $100k.... But they've also been paying on it for 20 years. anf they would only be taxed on what was forgiven not on what they have paid
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Post by tskeeter on Jul 31, 2016 10:34:12 GMT -5
I disagree with your NOYB position. If people take out loans that they can't or won't repay, it affects all of us. Loans that don't get repaid result in higher interest rates for other borrowers (us). And make it more difficult for other borrowers to get credit. One has only to think back to 2009 - 2014 to see the impact of unpaid loans on the general public. But you can't discharge student loans in bankruptcy, so they will have to be paid back. How does that affect other borrowers? The fact that a Loan can't be discharged in bankruptcy doesn't automatically mean the loan gets repaid. Or repaid in full.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 31, 2016 10:36:06 GMT -5
You think they'd charge less if only people who are STEM majors can get loans? They'll all start charging more to those schools to make up for not getting it from other departments. They'll also do whatever it takes to get students which will lead to the dreaded "dumbing down" of the workforce that ym likes to bitch about. Not to mention you'd be paying for even fancier/bigger labs to introduce all this people to real world applications. The tiny O Chem lab that currently houses 20 students won't cut it. Not to mention you can charge even more if you make more mandatory lab courses. If you don't want to make loans dischareable then private loans should have to operate under the sane regulations as federal. You can only take out $15K in federal Stafford's at a time and that's if you qualify for both subsidized and unsubsidized. If we don't want to do that either then we can't complain about people being able to get a six figure loan for an English degree. We've decided the loan company is free to lend to whoever and whatever amount they please. I am not in favor of forcing people into certain majors in order to control student loan costs when they aren't the ones setting the price tag or writing the checks. You went off on a rant and never answered my question. Nowhere in any of my posts did I say that only stem people should be able to take out ridiculous loans. What I said was as a business person, the payback on spending over $100k (no one wants to consider four years of lost wages) makes no sense if you will wind up wih a job making $40k. I live in a LCOLA and I pay the accounts payable person $37k and that is not a degreed position. So as far as a return on investment, that is a poor one. In my opinion only. But if someone wants to take on debt to make $40k a year that is totally their decision. As log as they aren't going into it with the plan to not pay it back. Then I have a major issue with it Now can you answer what I actually asked? I don't know many people who would be able to get a $30k/year job right out of high school nowadays. Maybe that's why no one is considering lost wages.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 10:37:47 GMT -5
But they've also been paying on it for 20 years. anf they would only be taxed on what was forgiven not on what they have paid But if they're on the income based repayment they may not have paid any of the principal. The balance might even be higher than when they started 20 years ago.
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Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 31, 2016 10:40:47 GMT -5
anf they would only be taxed on what was forgiven not on what they have paid But if they're on the income based repayment they may not have paid any of the principal. The balance might even be higher than when they started 20 years ago. And it should be. They didn't honor their repayment plan and didn't even pay enough to cover the interest.
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tskeeter
Junior Associate
Joined: Mar 20, 2011 19:37:45 GMT -5
Posts: 6,831
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Post by tskeeter on Jul 31, 2016 10:41:50 GMT -5
I don't think the objective needs to be about money. But, if you make choices that lead to a low paying career, I think you kind of give up the opportunity to fuss about the difficulty paying student loans, or not living the lifestyle you might like. You had the same opportunity to make other choices as other people. Fair enough. But the parallel to that would dictate that those who made choices that led to higher-paying careers give up the opportunity to complain about the long hours they put in or the extra work required, right? They had the same opportunity to make other choices as other people. You are correct. It's about accepting responsibility for the choices we make. And making new choices if we become unhappy with our current situation.
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MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 31, 2016 10:42:28 GMT -5
But if they're on the income based repayment they may not have paid any of the principal. The balance might even be higher than when they started 20 years ago. And it should be. They didn't honor their repayment plan and didn't even pay enough to cover the interest. Is this not a repayment plan? How are they not honoring it?
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