zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 30, 2016 8:44:46 GMT -5
Yes, they just aren't mine
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jul 30, 2016 9:31:56 GMT -5
So the effect is that we would have more STEM majors than we have room for, and no jobs for all the graduates, and then we have no one to fill non science jobs. If you have a mental health problem, good luck talking to the accountant. And you call the cops, good luck with the engineer tha responds. Nobody to work at the libraries, no one to work in municipal offices, and museums shut down. Yeah, that's a world I want to live in.
After working with a bunch of engineers at the Transit District I realized how much help they needed in explaining what they do. They may have been technical whizzes but boy oh boy did they need help with project communication. A few could raise above the pile but most couldn't. One of the funnier comments was from our communications director responding to the transit agency's efforts of trying to speed up the train between San Francisco and San Jose. She said (sarcastically) "Yeah, if it weren't for all of those stops to pick up the damn passengers we could cut commute time down to 30 minutes".
I agree with Swamp. The world needs a variety of people to keep it on its axis.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 30, 2016 9:32:33 GMT -5
Nope, you're right. OP meant no loans for anything other than STEM. I think there should be a limit as in no 100k loans for a 30k job that's not in demand. Just like any loan, there needs to be collateral to pay it back. You need a job to pay it back. But, the average college debt these days is 30K. Those folks who walk away with 100-200K in loans are NOT in the norm. They are *special.* How far are we going to go to protect dumb people from themselves? Make laws about what kind of car they can drive and where the can live, and what acceptable housing is? If you have a 30K job, and 50K in loans, then you are only allowed to drive a 2K cash car and live in the hood? And what about the folks, like us? One of our possible plans for managing college costs is having our kids take out loans for any shortfall and then us paying them off after they get done with college.
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svwashout
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Post by svwashout on Jul 30, 2016 9:55:27 GMT -5
Why not something like accounting? I took some math, science and tech classes for accounting degrees, it isn't a worthless degree. I did pay cash no student loans but if I had gotten one I would have paid it back. I imagine the intent of this goes beyond straight science, technology, engineering, and medicine. Accounting, finance, business, and management would be included, as would agriculture, military, and other 'useful' pursuits. But political science, archaeology, and philosophy majors would probably have to go into the 'B' ark.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 30, 2016 10:00:39 GMT -5
Why not something like accounting? I took some math, science and tech classes for accounting degrees, it isn't a worthless degree. I did pay cash no student loans but if I had gotten one I would have paid it back. I imagine the intent of this goes beyond straight science, technology, engineering, and medicine. Accounting, finance, business, and management would be included, as would agriculture, military, and other 'useful' pursuits. But political science, archaeology, and philosophy majors would probably have to go into the 'B' ark. I love the B Ark story. One of my favorites from Douglas Adams.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 30, 2016 10:07:25 GMT -5
Why not something like accounting? I took some math, science and tech classes for accounting degrees, it isn't a worthless degree. I did pay cash no student loans but if I had gotten one I would have paid it back. I imagine the intent of this goes beyond straight science, technology, engineering, and medicine. Accounting, finance, business, and management would be included, as would agriculture, military, and other 'useful' pursuits. But political science, archaeology, and philosophy majors would probably have to go into the 'B' ark. Actually, I've read that the social sciences count as science. Where would those business subjects fall into STEM? I think you're reaching there. If you're going to count those, you'd need to add a letter.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Jul 30, 2016 10:12:35 GMT -5
Maybe they should just change it to S.N.O.B degrees. Then every one knows you think your degree is superior to theirs
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 30, 2016 10:33:42 GMT -5
There is value in other majors besides stem, and I have a physics degree and work in a stem field.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 30, 2016 11:05:54 GMT -5
Good luck getting into medical school with an English major. It is not impossible. In fact, many applicants to medical school are not science majors. If you have the classes and the MCAT scores, you have just as good of a chance (maybe better) than someone with a science degree.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 30, 2016 11:13:48 GMT -5
There is value in other majors besides stem, and I have a physics degree and work in a stem field. And you have a STEM degree....science. Have one too, and I would never recommend it to someone today. In fact, I dissuaded my nephew from going in this direction.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jul 30, 2016 11:40:08 GMT -5
Sorry
Didn't mean to raise a ruckus .......... just trying to weed out the $100K student loans in basket weaving at the university level.
Seriously though. No offense but this seems like trolling....
If you honestly thing I'm a troll ....... you are not required to answer my legitimate question. We sorta knew what the letters meant but not real sure.
I think trade and tech schools are wonderful, the university level should not offer any 'dumb-bell' classes under any circumstances. If such a class is needed after an entrance exam, then the local community college is there.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 30, 2016 11:50:47 GMT -5
There is value in other majors besides stem, and I have a physics degree and work in a stem field. And you have a STEM degree....science. Have one too, and I would never recommend it to someone today. In fact, I dissuaded my nephew from going in this direction. I think it depends on the major/career. I agree becoming a professor is a bad move because universities are so tight with tenure and the publish or perish environment. But I think most engineering disciplines are still lucrative. I work as a regulator in government, dealing with radiation safety.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 30, 2016 12:09:33 GMT -5
So the effect is that we would have more STEM majors than we have room for, and no jobs for all the graduates, and then we have no one to fill non science jobs. If you have a mental health problem, good luck talking to the accountant. And you call the cops, good luck with the engineer tha responds. Nobody to work at the libraries, no one to work in municipal offices, and museums shut down. Yeah, that's a world I want to live in. Hey!!! I wanted to major in psychology - doesn't that count for anything As far as OP - I think I kind of, sort of understand what her point was - we have a lot of people with degrees who can't find jobs and can't pay their debt. I do think that colleges need to reconsider what they are offering as a degree. I know someone on here has a degree in philosophy, and I truly am not trying to offend (bc frankly, I think it is a very interesting degree) - but what do you do with that degree?? Women's studies is another example. Russian literature. Etc, etc, etc. Even if you could find a job that required that precise degree - there are soooo few of them. I think colleges used to have a different goal in past generations. Getting a job was not the main goal at all. Especially for women. But it is completely different now. People don't go to college to just learn various disciplines, to engage in conversations and acquire various knowledge on all kinds of things. They go for a very specific purpose. So I think what is being offered really does have to change. I have a philosophy degree and I have been doing relatively well for myself. Yes I know I'm going back for a new STEM degree in a month but that's because I found something I'd actually enjoy. I had planned to go to law school with that philosophy degree, but it didn't pan out. Bottom line - you need to be creative and flexible if you have a degree without a designated career path.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 30, 2016 12:12:16 GMT -5
Sorry Didn't mean to raise a ruckus .......... just trying to weed out the $100K student loans in basket weaving at the university level. Seriously though. No offense but this seems like trolling....If you honestly thing I'm a troll ....... you are not required to answer my legitimate question. We sorta knew what the letters meant but not real sure. I think trade and tech schools are wonderful, the university level should not offer any 'dumb-bell' classes under any circumstances. If such a class is needed after an entrance exam, then the local community college is there. Sorry for my comment but I just don't understand how you'd have a conversation like that about a subject you weren't even sure you understood. Now I get it.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jul 30, 2016 12:20:53 GMT -5
And now a different perspective:
How about we make college actually affordable??!!
Too many schools hopped onto the HGTV train and offer students glamorous dorms with granite in the bathroom, sushi in the dining hall, and rock climbing walls in the tricked out fitness center.
I don't want to pay for that crap but am forced to at exhorbitant rates. It doesn't add to the academic offerings that I am happy to pay for.
So, let's look at the college cost/student debt issue from ALL sides and find real solutions. Putting people down for career choices WON'T do that.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 30, 2016 12:23:45 GMT -5
So far, my finance degree has been less lucrative than my psychology degree. ;-)
My niece recently completed her psych undergrad and is continuing on to become a genetic counselor. I think she'll do fine once she's done with grad school. (Grad school was originally in my plans for my psych degree as well. Some degrees kinda call for continuing beyond a bachelor's. That doesn't mean they are worthless.)
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 30, 2016 12:25:35 GMT -5
And now a different perspective: How about we make college actually affordable??!! Too many schools hopped onto the HGTV train and offer students glamorous dorms with granite in the bathroom, sushi in the dining hall, and rock climbing walls in the tricked out fitness center. I don't want to pay for that crap but am forced to at exhorbitant rates. It doesn't add to the academic offerings that I am happy to pay for. So, let's look at the college cost/student debt issue from ALL sides and find real solutions. Putting people down for career choices WON'T do that. I'll tell you how--make it a lot easier for the loans to be discharged in bankruptcy. That will decrease the amount available for school, and schools will finally have to find ways to cut costs.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 30, 2016 12:30:33 GMT -5
Hey!!! I wanted to major in psychology - doesn't that count for anything As far as OP - I think I kind of, sort of understand what her point was - we have a lot of people with degrees who can't find jobs and can't pay their debt. I do think that colleges need to reconsider what they are offering as a degree. I know someone on here has a degree in philosophy, and I truly am not trying to offend (bc frankly, I think it is a very interesting degree) - but what do you do with that degree?? Women's studies is another example. Russian literature. Etc, etc, etc. Even if you could find a job that required that precise degree - there are soooo few of them. I think colleges used to have a different goal in past generations. Getting a job was not the main goal at all. Especially for women. But it is completely different now. People don't go to college to just learn various disciplines, to engage in conversations and acquire various knowledge on all kinds of things. They go for a very specific purpose. So I think what is being offered really does have to change. I have a philosophy degree and I have been doing relatively well for myself. Yes I know I'm going back for a new STEM degree in a month but that's because I found something I'd actually enjoy. I had planned to go to law school with that philosophy degree, but it didn't pan out. Bottom line - you need to be creative and flexible if you have a degree without a designated career path. But I think the question is - did you have $100K of SL after that degree and if so, what was your starting and potential salary? I think colleges started as an idea for rich boys to go and expand their general knowledge base and then go and work in their family business. And for women - again, expand their knowledge horizons and go back and get married. With some exceptions, of course But now college degrees have very different goal and I think people need to consider the cost-benefit aspect as well.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jul 30, 2016 12:43:55 GMT -5
My DS and his fiancé ( both age 24) both have non-STEM degrees from a mid- level state university and are both making more than $50k. And they are both doing much better than DD who has an STEM degree and is a year older.
DS has double major in Finance and accounting. He took all his electives in math and has a job as actuary. Granted he could have easily got a math degree if he wanted, but he chose to do business. He can easily pay off his student loans. His fiancé has undergraduate degree in English and philosophy and masters in teaching and just got a job teaching high school. It is VHCOL area and her pay reflects it.
Many people can do well with non-STEM degrees. This is coming from someone with an Engineering degree.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2016 12:53:16 GMT -5
I have a philosophy degree and I have been doing relatively well for myself. Yes I know I'm going back for a new STEM degree in a month but that's because I found something I'd actually enjoy. I had planned to go to law school with that philosophy degree, but it didn't pan out. Bottom line - you need to be creative and flexible if you have a degree without a designated career path. But I think the question is - did you have $100K of SL after that degree and if so, what was your starting and potential salary?I think colleges started as an idea for rich boys to go and expand their general knowledge base and then go and work in their family business. And for women - again, expand their knowledge horizons and go back and get married. With some exceptions, of course But now college degrees have very different goal and I think people need to consider the cost-benefit aspect as well. But isn't the student loan debt part on the student? I think taking out 100K in loans to get an English degree from a private school is asinine, but if they guy next to me thinks it's worth it, then whatever...who am I to say he can't? I think there should be better educating of kids before they choose schools and degrees, but I don't believe in legislation on what degrees are worthy to protect people from doing stupid things.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 30, 2016 13:13:58 GMT -5
And you have a STEM degree....science. Have one too, and I would never recommend it to someone today. In fact, I dissuaded my nephew from going in this direction. I think it depends on the major/career. I agree becoming a professor is a bad move because universities are so tight with tenure and the publish or perish environment. But I think most engineering disciplines are still lucrative. I work as a regulator in government, dealing with radiation safety. If you have an undergraduate degree in some of the STEM, because there is such a plethora of PhDs who want to become professors, you are competing with them in the job market. A PhD is going to trump a BS in biology. So these days, a research career is a lousy direction to go, even if you have absolutely no intention of becoming a professor or teaching. I was not saying NOT get one, but more consider what track you are on. The automatic assumption that a degree in biology or chemistry, even though both are considered STEM does not translate the same way an engineering degree does. Also consider that engineering also has it's problems. Right now, there are a lot of oil and gas engineers on the job market looking for jobs due to the oil and gas bust. 5 years ago, they could not hire enough of them. In the middle of the recession, civil and structural engineers were having a rough time, but those have picked up. Lucrative is only dependent upon whether you happen to have the right engineering discipline at the right time and be willing to go anywhere.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jul 30, 2016 13:28:10 GMT -5
But now college degrees have very different goal and I think people need to consider the cost-benefit aspect as well.
This was actually the topic of the conversation between DH and myself. At the university level there should be some restrictions/guidelines on gov't guaranteed student loans. Right now it seems that the sky is the limit, and too many kids/parents don't understand that these loans are expected to be paid back.
When I attended tech school there were several of my classmates that were planning to blow off their loans. But they were younger than my daughter so it might have been a generational thing. My total SL was $17K in 1993 ....... and I paid it all back. I also got a job that paid for a home besides SL.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2016 13:30:45 GMT -5
But now college degrees have very different goal and I think people need to consider the cost-benefit aspect as well.This was actually the topic of the conversation between DH and myself. At the university level there should be some restrictions/guidelines on gov't guaranteed student loans. Right now it seems that the sky is the limit, and too many kids/parents don't understand that these loans are expected to be paid back. When I attended tech school there were several of my classmates that were planning to blow off their loans. But they were younger than my daughter so it might have been a generational thing. My total SL was $17K in 1993 ....... and I paid it all back. I also got a job that paid for a home besides SL. But the limit on government loans is only like 27K. Anyone racking up 6 figure debts is going the private loan route.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 30, 2016 14:12:08 GMT -5
But now college degrees have very different goal and I think people need to consider the cost-benefit aspect as well.This was actually the topic of the conversation between DH and myself. At the university level there should be some restrictions/guidelines on gov't guaranteed student loans. Right now it seems that the sky is the limit, and too many kids/parents don't understand that these loans are expected to be paid back. When I attended tech school there were several of my classmates that were planning to blow off their loans. But they were younger than my daughter so it might have been a generational thing. My total SL was $17K in 1993 ....... and I paid it all back. I also got a job that paid for a home besides SL. It's because suddenly everything requires some kind of degree or additional schooling. An administrative assistant does not need to have a degree, but most postings for that job want you to have one. Office assistant is the same thing. You're filing and typing - that's basically it. Trade schools aren't free either.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2016 14:12:29 GMT -5
I think colleges used to have a different goal in past generations. Getting a job was not the main goal at all. Especially for women. But it is completely different now. People don't go to college to just learn various disciplines, to engage in conversations and acquire various knowledge on all kinds of things. They go for a very specific purpose. So I think what is being offered really does have to change. I don't think it should be either/or. I took Math, Economics and science classes most of the time (BA in Math) but I went to the University of Cincinnati, which had an amazing conservatory of music, and between free performances there and one wonderful Music Appreciation professor I learned a ton about music. I also picked up a second foreign language. Neither got me my job, but they enriched my life and it sure helped that I understood German when my employer was acquired by a Swiss company in 2006. I'm old-fashioned and I love learning; I firmly believe in required electives in a variety of areas so you get a well-rounded education. You can't easily predict who's going to pay back student loans based on majors. As someone already noted, majors change. A bearable amount of undergrad debt can mount to an unbearable amount if they go for grad school and the extra degree isn't worth much- or they could go onto grad school and qualify for more lucrative jobs. An Art History major may marry well and end up on the Board of the local art museum. We should, however, educate people as to what their loan will cost them per month compared to average compensation in their major field. It sounds like right now it's scary easy to get overhead in debt with a few mouse clicks even if you don't know beans about compound interest.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 30, 2016 14:34:12 GMT -5
Good luck getting into medical school with an English major. Maybe not but I know plenty of lawyers who got into law school with English majors. I know plenty of engineers who struggled with student loans for years, but all the lawyers seemed to pay theirs just fine. So which undergrad was really worth more? Except an engineering degree isn't ab advanced degree. You aren't comparing apples to apples. How valuable would an English degree be if they didn't then go to law school?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2016 15:12:26 GMT -5
this is really making me cringe. why can't they be on the board for their KSA's? KSA= Knowledge- specific something? It takes two things to get on the Board of a major charity, from what I've seen- a passion for the mission (hence an Art History major for an art museum) and the ability to donate and/or raise lots of money. If you have a lot of generous philanthropic friends it sure helps. One of the reasons I'm in favor of every education including humanities and the arts in some form is that no matter what they do in life, they'll understand the mission of some of these organizations and support them. Another is that I believe you need to use every corner of your brain- not just the creative part or just the "I love people" part or the analytical part. A good education nurtures it all.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 30, 2016 15:30:56 GMT -5
Maybe not but I know plenty of lawyers who got into law school with English majors. I know plenty of engineers who struggled with student loans for years, but all the lawyers seemed to pay theirs just fine. So which undergrad was really worth more? Except an engineering degree isn't ab advanced degree. You aren't comparing apples to apples. How valuable would an English degree be if they didn't then go to law school? It depends upon what they have managed to do with that English degree. I have a friend who has one, and probably makes close to $200K/year with it. English degrees CAN be valuable in the right person, at the right time and in the right profession.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 30, 2016 15:38:35 GMT -5
this is really making me cringe. why can't they be on the board for their KSA's? KSA= Knowledge- specific something? It takes two things to get on the Board of a major charity, from what I've seen- a passion for the mission (hence an Art History major for an art museum) and the ability to donate and/or raise lots of money. If you have a lot of generous philanthropic friends it sure helps. One of the reasons I'm in favor of every education including humanities and the arts in some form is that no matter what they do in life, they'll understand the mission of some of these organizations and support them. Another is that I believe you need to use every corner of your brain- not just the creative part or just the "I love people" part or the analytical part. A good education nurtures it all. It does. I have as many credits in theatre as I do in chemistry (that is, I have enough for a minor in both). I chose theatre as my liberal art elective as a fluke. Most other classes met when I had a science lab and theatre classes tended to be later in the day and they fit in my schedule better. The reason why they were later was that many times the classes proceeded to move into rehearsals for productions, so if the class was at 5 pm, you'd go immediately after class to rehearsal and it would run until midnight (or later). Those midnight rehearsals kicked my butt when I needed to show up for an 8 am genetics class! However, the more that I did in it, the more I appreciated how different it was from my science track. My brain had to think in different ways and I really did enjoy the difference. I can note how to stage a play and why certain characters move in certain directions, I can appreciate how much work goes into making a set. I personally know how much of a pain in the ass it is to work with kids and animals! I got to read literature that I would not have considered otherwise. I can also still quote soliloquies from a bunch of different plays. Finally, it means that I am now really good in an additional group of Jeopardy categories!
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jul 30, 2016 16:09:23 GMT -5
Except an engineering degree isn't ab advanced degree. You aren't comparing apples to apples. How valuable would an English degree be if they didn't then go to law school? It depends upon what they have managed to do with that English degree. I have a friend who has one, and probably makes close to $200K/year with it. English degrees CAN be valuable in the right person, at the right time and in the right profession. Like being a medical editor. Cough*personalexperience*cough
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