happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 10, 2016 13:30:40 GMT -5
Women shouldn't "have" to "protect" themselves.
NOBODY should "have" to "protect" themselves.
We need to create a society and a culture where individuals can wander unmolested, because everyone keeps their hands (and their verbiage, and their biases) to themselves and doesn't see others (regardless of race, sex, gender, creed, color LGBTQ status etcetera, ad nauseum) as something they can use or manipulate.
THAT is the real value of this case - - it is causing us to talk on a national level, and we need to keep doing it (talk about what is acceptable and what is not).
ETA: I'm not so naïve as to think that there aren't evil people out there, and that a prudent course of action is to take precautions against running into one of them. But the problem is: that argument (evil people are out there; boys will be boys; etc) lets us off the hook as a culture from facing the real issue, which is that these actions are unacceptable and need to be called out and dealt with as such. And as I said in the other thread, we need to lead by example. Don't try to touch a pregnant's woman belly. Don't try to squeeze a cheek of a cute toddler. Don't try to force your kid to hug grandma. Start early. Waaay earlier than any sex talk even enters into a picture. What? Squeezing the cheek of a cute toddler leads to people getting raped?
In some cultures, and some families, hugging, kissing and cuddling between family members are the norm.
No, toddlers shouldn't be forced to hug grandma, but for some of us, affectionate contact between family members is almost a requirement for good mental health. I don't get how this teaches kids that forcing yourself on someone of the opposite sex is ok.
Whatever happened to good touches and bad touches?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 10, 2016 13:37:34 GMT -5
I think what Lena meant is that forcing contact when the child doesn't want to is wrong. Even if it's otherwise a "good touch" (e.g. hug from grandma), the lack of consent if the kid doesn't want it converts it to "bad touch." And it's compounded when we guilt kids into giving grandma a hug because if they don't it'll hurt her feelings.
It's essentially teaching kids from a very young age that they have to provide physical affection on demand, even if they don't want to, because of the other person's relationship with them, their hurt feelings if they don't, etc. Which does bear a lot of parallels to rape...
(ETA - I'm not in any way suggesting that someone is a bad parent for coaxing a hug out of an unwilling kid. I have done it myself. But the first time I really stood back and looked at it I could easily see how today's "you better hug grandma or she'll be sad!" is tomorrow's "you'd better put out tonight or ____.")
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quince
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Post by quince on Jun 10, 2016 13:39:53 GMT -5
Um. touches you don't want are bad touches. Kissing and cuddling are cool as long as everyone is OK with it. Touch a pregnant woman's belly...if she invites you to, or if you ask and she says yes. If the toddler is yours and you have a relationship and they don't shy away, touch their cheek, but for god's sake don't grope a random toddler because they are cute.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 10, 2016 13:42:01 GMT -5
"Good touches" and "bad touches" are nothing more than the earliest, simplest forms of teaching a young child the concept of consent . . . just sayin' . . . . (and around and around we go again )
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 13:49:49 GMT -5
The only people making that argument are you and PI. I agree that it's ludicrous, but since it's not what the rest of us are saying, it's a moot point. Anyway, back to discussing men... Unless you are ignoring post like 190, as well as others that you either didn't read or didn't interpret as being about women not being able give consent while drinking.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 13:56:03 GMT -5
Did it ever occur to anyone that having a conversation about what to do if you're faced with a drunk partner or if you're both drunk and thinking about hooking up could benefit BOTH sexes? Men get raped too. Men can be raped by women, men can be raped by other men. Women can also be raped by other women. The Having a conversation about safe drinking when it comes to sex would benefit PEOPLE. Lesbians can be raped, gay men can be raped, straight men can be raped. Yet the focus always seems to be on what is my responsibility as a woman to keep myself from being raped by a man. It's so ingrained in our culture that we can't even have a separate discussion about how to keep boys safe both from being accused and potentially being victims themselves. It always has to circle around back to talking about what a woman must do to prevent rape. We can never get away from it and that's the problem. No the focus is what is the responsibility of BOTH parties when alcohol is involved....there appears to be a different standard toward men and women on the issue...as well as how much responsibili both bear in it. A lot of the drinking issue revolves around what we think is a natural part of the "college experience," and drinking....and changing that would help both men and women.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 10, 2016 14:00:09 GMT -5
And as I said in the other thread, we need to lead by example. Don't try to touch a pregnant's woman belly. Don't try to squeeze a cheek of a cute toddler. Don't try to force your kid to hug grandma. Start early. Waaay earlier than any sex talk even enters into a picture. What? Squeezing the cheek of a cute toddler leads to people getting raped?
In some cultures, and some families, hugging, kissing and cuddling between family members are the norm.
No, toddlers shouldn't be forced to hug grandma, but for some of us, affectionate contact between family members is almost a requirement for good mental health. I don't get how this teaches kids that forcing yourself on someone of the opposite sex is ok.
Whatever happened to good touches and bad touches?
The only touch that is a good touch if it's a welcomed touch. And the only person who determines that is the person being touched.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 10, 2016 14:00:33 GMT -5
It's so ingrained in our culture that we can't even have a separate discussion about how to keep boys safe both from being accused and potentially being victims themselves. It always has to circle around back to talking about what a woman must do to prevent rape. We can never get away from it and that's the problem.
times 1,000
Think of it this way: Can we control the actions of the would-be rapist if he's not our child? Obviously, no. We have no idea who he is, and he's outside our sphere of influence. Hence the discussion is limited to "What do we tell our male children?" and "What do we tell our female children?" Re the first question, is there anyone here who hasn't already discussed consent with their teenage son? Is there anyone here who starkly disagrees with the consensus on the standard of consent? Is there anyone here defending the actions of their son? I've only skimmed the thread, but my read--which is the same as the read for all previous discussions on the subject--is that the answer to all three questions is "No." The only area of dispute is the issue of drunkenness, which (surprise, surprise) is one of the main thread topics. Aside from that, everybody agrees. Whoever the "boys will be boys" parents are, they're obviously not contributing to this thread. I'll bet you dollars to dimes they're not reading it either. Why would they? Hence the issue of "What do we tell our male children?" is resolved and the discussion is moot. What does that leave us with? "What do we tell our female children?" Is there widespread consensus on this issue? No. Some posters plainly believe it's a bad idea to tell girls to take precautionary steps, while others believe it's necessary. Posters disagree on what the precautions should be, and how effective they are. It's a controversial issue and there are significant differences of opinion. Hence it becomes the topic of conversation. If you want the discussion to remain firmly rooted in "What do we tell our boys?", make a bold "boys will be boys, and I'm not teaching my boy otherwise" statement that you expect others will disagree with. Defend it. The thread will remain locked on topic until you stop, I guarantee you.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 10, 2016 14:04:11 GMT -5
Where in post 190 did it say that women can't give consent while drinking?
No one can give consent when they are unconscious. I would argue that someone (man or woman) who is stumbling, slurring words, etc. is intoxicated enough that their ability to consent is certainly questionable. But short of that, it's a case-by-case determination, as it should be. Again, for BOTH sexes.
You said in an earlier post that "it actually is the argument people are making that any alcohol at all makes a woman incapable of providing consent." Please find one post here (or in any of the other threads) that says that.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 10, 2016 14:07:14 GMT -5
Women shouldn't "have" to "protect" themselves.
NOBODY should "have" to "protect" themselves.
We need to create a society and a culture where individuals can wander unmolested, because everyone keeps their hands (and their verbiage, and their biases) to themselves and doesn't see others (regardless of race, sex, gender, creed, color LGBTQ status etcetera, ad nauseum) as something they can use or manipulate.
THAT is the real value of this case - - it is causing us to talk on a national level, and we need to keep doing it (talk about what is acceptable and what is not).
ETA: I'm not so naïve as to think that there aren't evil people out there, and that a prudent course of action is to take precautions against running into one of them. But the problem is: that argument (evil people are out there; boys will be boys; etc) lets us off the hook as a culture from facing the real issue, which is that these actions are unacceptable and need to be called out and dealt with as such. And as I said in the other thread, we need to lead by example. Don't try to touch a pregnant's woman belly. Don't try to squeeze a cheek of a cute toddler. Don't try to force your kid to hug grandma. Start early. Waaay earlier than any sex talk even enters into a picture. I could live with "you need express consent" for the belly thing. Forget the rest.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 14:08:37 GMT -5
... It always has to circle around back to talking about what a woman must do to prevent rape. We can never get away from it and that's the problem. Yes it is a problem. A suggest I have to break the circle is to simply not respond at all on this thread to anyone who takes the topic that direction. It sounds like many people ultimately want to tell men that it is ultimately up to them to say no when it comes to sex when alcohol is involved...and while that is not necessarily a a bad thing, it is no more fair to place all the burden on men than it is to place it on women. Maybe this thread was originally started because in another thread I don't know about, people felt posters were only blaming women for rapes and not laying any blame or responsibility to stop rapes on men, but stopping rapes goes both ways...but by all means let's only focus and blame men and start a thread about how to get them to stop raping as if it's some innate characteristic where men are nothing but predators that need to be stopped...while at the same time not discuss some of the issues with ambiguity about consent, sex, and alcohol.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 10, 2016 14:11:33 GMT -5
And as I said in the other thread, we need to lead by example. Don't try to touch a pregnant's woman belly. Don't try to squeeze a cheek of a cute toddler. Don't try to force your kid to hug grandma. Start early. Waaay earlier than any sex talk even enters into a picture. I could live with "you need express consent" for the belly thing. Forget the rest. Could you explain this? Are you saying that you need to ask before you touch a pregnant woman's belly but it's OK to force physical contact with young children?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 14:14:47 GMT -5
Where in post 190 did it say that women can't give consent while drinking? The No one can give consent when they are unconscious. I would argue that someone (man or woman) who is stumbling, slurring words, etc. is intoxicated enough that their ability to consent is certainly questionable. But short of that, it's a case-by-case determination, as it should be. Again, for BOTH sexes. You said in an earlier post that "it actually is the argument people are making that any alcohol at all makes a woman incapable of providing consent." Please find one post here (or in any of the other threads) that says that. My post prior to that said we seem to be in agreement that consensual drunken sex is not rape and the poster didn't want to agree with that because she felt that men viewed women who are drinking as easy targets. And what is s everybody's deal that they want to equate drunk or drinking with passed out when they clearly are not the same thing? There has also been multiple posts about women being unable to give legal consent while drinking....and last time I checked, drinking starts with the first drink...,which naturally leads to how much is too much and how to determine that unless you say any drinking at all is too much...especially since 1-2 drinks can make some people drunk.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 10, 2016 14:22:05 GMT -5
Yes it is a problem. A suggest I have to break the circle is to simply not respond at all on this thread to anyone who takes the topic that direction. It sounds like many people ultimately want to tell men that it is ultimately up to them to say no when it comes to sex when alcohol is involved...and while that is not necessarily a a bad thing, it is no more fair to place all the burden on men than it is to place it on women. Maybe this thread was originally started because in another thread I don't know about, people felt posters were only blaming women for rapes and not laying any blame or responsibility to stop rapes on men, but stopping rapes goes both ways...but by all means let's only focus and blame men and start a thread about how to get them to stop raping as if it's some innate characteristic where men are nothing but predators that need to be stopped...while at the same time not discuss some of the issues with ambiguity about consent, sex, and alcohol. I think it is totally legitimate to have a thread in which the discussion is what do boys need to hear in order to help them have appropriate perspective on sexual relations. Part of that is on a moral plane. Part of it is on a legal plane. I started a thread to discuss exactly what you want to discuss as far as the ambiguity, tossing in gender as a legitimate piece of consent, sex, and alcohol.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 10, 2016 14:25:28 GMT -5
The only people making that argument are you and PI. I agree that it's ludicrous, but since it's not what the rest of us are saying, it's a moot point. Anyway, back to discussing men...
Post Options
. Post by justme on 4 hours ago
Studies show 2-8 percent of rape accusations are false. That's in line with false accusations of any other crime. It's not like women are throwing around false rape accusations anymore than people are throwing around false theft accusations.
Is it bad when someone is falsely accused? Yes. Does it occur note with rape than other crimes? No.
All drunken sex is not consensual. Not consensual sex is rape.
I don't know how to quote in a quote so I copied and pasted Justme's post from earlier. In here she states "all drunken sex is not consensual. Not consensual sex is rape"....so, am I misreading that or did you miss it? Because if ALL drunken sex is not consensual and not consensual sex is rape...then anytime anyone on this board had drunken sex they were raped. I've had drunken sex...am I a rape victim and didn't know it?
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 10, 2016 14:26:51 GMT -5
What does that leave us with? "What do we tell our female children?" Is there widespread consensus on this issue? No. Some posters plainly believe it's a bad idea to tell girls to take precautionary steps, while others believe it's necessary.
FWIW, we had MULTIPLE conversations with our girls about common-sense precautions to protect themselves (in any number of arenas) against anyone who might try to use or abuse them. All of the conversations ended with, "I want you to be safe in the world, but I also don't want you to be scared of it."
But that's a LOOOOOOOONG way from censoring how she dresses or acts because our culture feels it's somehow her "fault" if she dresses (or acts) in a certain way that makes a man feel entitled to sexually assault her. That is clearly HIS problem. He has NO right to say (or even think) "she was asking for it."
JMHO, the people here who are arguing that our culture is (on several levels) inadvertently perpetuating these stereotypes are correct. Nothing will change unless we call out the culture and work to change it. Telling women to control themselves (disguised as "be modest to be safe") is perpetuating the rape culture. We should be teaching men (and women!) they are not entitled to touch, use, abuse or manipulate ANYONE. EVER. PERIOD.
This is the part that some folks can't seem to get into their skulls - - but whatever.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 10, 2016 14:35:21 GMT -5
I could live with "you need express consent" for the belly thing. Forget the rest. Could you explain this? Are you saying that you need to ask before you touch a pregnant woman's belly but it's OK to force physical contact with young children? Yes. At least as far as "forc[ing] physical contact with young children" is pinching a kid's cheek or insisting kids go hug Grandma. In the right circumstances, I have no issue with spontaneous hugging, kissing, hair fuzzing, tickling, picking up, hand on the shoulder, or most parental impositions on a reluctant child (e.g. show the lady your hand, pull your shirt up so the doctor can see, let her pull off the band-aid, etc.) Teaching children that "good touch" isn't possible without express verbal consent isn't a reasonable standard. Even if it was, it wouldn't do a blessed thing to curb rape. You might get a few less Josh Duggars touching their sisters, but only if you neglected to teach them about appropriate and inappropriate touch in the first place.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 10, 2016 14:35:48 GMT -5
What does that leave us with? "What do we tell our female children?" Is there widespread consensus on this issue? No. Some posters plainly believe it's a bad idea to tell girls to take precautionary steps, while others believe it's necessary.
FWIW, we had MULTIPLE conversations with our girls about common-sense precautions to protect themselves (in any number of arenas) against anyone who might try to use or abuse them. All of the conversations ended with, "I want you to be safe in the world, but I also don't want you to be scared of it."
But that's a LOOOOOOOONG way from censoring how she dresses or acts because our culture feels it's somehow her "fault" if she dresses (or acts) in a certain way that makes a man feel entitled to sexually assault her. That is clearly HIS problem. He has NO right to say (or even think) "she was asking for it."
JMHO, the people here who are arguing that our culture is (on several levels) inadvertently perpetuating these stereotypes are correct. Nothing will change unless we call out the culture and work to change it. Telling women to control themselves (disguised as "be modest to be safe") is perpetuating the rape culture. We should be teaching men (and women!) they are not entitled to touch, use, abuse or manipulate ANYONE. EVER. PERIOD.
This is the part that some folks can't seem to get into their skulls - - but whatever.
I never said "be modest to be safe". A person's dress has nothing at all to do with getting raped. There is a HUGE difference between telling someone that dressing like a slut will get them raped (completely absurd) and telling someone that they are putting themselves at risk by being doing certain things. Like it or not, there are actions that we as women can take that will make us easier prey for some asshat. That doesn't make it a woman's fault as the attack is still on the man. But FFS, acting like telling our girls to not paint a target on their backs is liken to victim shaming on this thread. I honestly don't understand the feminist mindset and I guess I should quit trying to.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 10, 2016 14:38:19 GMT -5
What does that leave us with? "What do we tell our female children?" Is there widespread consensus on this issue? No. Some posters plainly believe it's a bad idea to tell girls to take precautionary steps, while others believe it's necessary.
FWIW, we had MULTIPLE conversations with our girls about common-sense precautions to protect themselves (in any number of arenas) against anyone who might try to use or abuse them. All of the conversations ended with, "I want you to be safe in the world, but I also don't want you to be scared of it."
But that's a LOOOOOOOONG way from censoring how she dresses or acts because our culture feels it's somehow her "fault" if she dresses (or acts) in a certain way that makes a man feel entitled to sexually assault her. That is clearly HIS problem. He has NO right to say (or even think) "she was asking for it."
JMHO, the people here who are arguing that our culture is (on several levels) inadvertently perpetuating these stereotypes are correct. Nothing will change unless we call out the culture and work to change it. Telling women to control themselves (disguised as "be modest to be safe") is perpetuating the rape culture. We should be teaching men (and women!) they are not entitled to touch, use, abuse or manipulate ANYONE. EVER. PERIOD.
This is the part that some folks can't seem to get into their skulls - - but whatever.
I'm just not reading any disagreement-- at all--as to what parents should be telling their teenage boys. If there's no disagreement, there's no discussion. Period.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 10, 2016 14:38:35 GMT -5
FWIW, we had MULTIPLE conversations with our girls about common-sense precautions to protect themselves (in any number of arenas) against anyone who might try to use or abuse them. All of the conversations ended with, "I want you to be safe in the world, but I also don't want you to be scared of it."
But that's a LOOOOOOOONG way from censoring how she dresses or acts because our culture feels it's somehow her "fault" if she dresses (or acts) in a certain way that makes a man feel entitled to sexually assault her. That is clearly HIS problem. He has NO right to say (or even think) "she was asking for it."
JMHO, the people here who are arguing that our culture is (on several levels) inadvertently perpetuating these stereotypes are correct. Nothing will change unless we call out the culture and work to change it. Telling women to control themselves (disguised as "be modest to be safe") is perpetuating the rape culture. We should be teaching men (and women!) they are not entitled to touch, use, abuse or manipulate ANYONE. EVER. PERIOD.
This is the part that some folks can't seem to get into their skulls - - but whatever.
I never said "be modest to be safe". A person's dress has nothing at all to do with getting raped. There is a HUGE difference between telling someone that dressing like a slut will get them raped (completely absurd) and telling someone that they are putting themselves at risk by being doing certain things. Like it or not, there are actions that we as women can take that will make us easier prey for some asshat. That doesn't make it a woman's fault as the attack is still on the man. But FFS, acting like telling our girls to not paint a target on their backs is liken to victim shaming on this thread. I honestly don't understand the feminist mindset and I guess I should quit trying to. I never said that you did.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 10, 2016 14:41:30 GMT -5
I never said "be modest to be safe". A person's dress has nothing at all to do with getting raped. There is a HUGE difference between telling someone that dressing like a slut will get them raped (completely absurd) and telling someone that they are putting themselves at risk by being doing certain things. Like it or not, there are actions that we as women can take that will make us easier prey for some asshat. That doesn't make it a woman's fault as the attack is still on the man. But FFS, acting like telling our girls to not paint a target on their backs is liken to victim shaming on this thread. I honestly don't understand the feminist mindset and I guess I should quit trying to. I never said that you did.
I know you didn't. I don't recall ANYONE in this thread saying this but you are not the first poster to make that statement so I was pointing out that while we disagree I certainly am not dumb enough to think that clothing has anything to do with rape.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 10, 2016 14:49:03 GMT -5
I never said that you did.
I know you didn't. I don't recall ANYONE in this thread saying this but you are not the first poster to make that statement so I was pointing out that while we disagree I certainly am not dumb enough to think that clothing has anything to do with rape. Neither you or I are that dumb. We know that it doesn't.
But unfortunately, that mindset is STILL out there among *some" men ("she was dressed like a slut, she was asking for it.")
THAT is the rape culture we need to call out. And we need to continue to call it out and not censor or shame our daughters for what they wear. It is NOT their fault.
OF COURSE we want to keep our daughters (and sons) safe! But implying that "slutty" clothes *might* get them raped IS inadvertently perpetuating a negative culture. That's all.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 10, 2016 14:54:44 GMT -5
... But that's a LOOOOOOOONG way from censoring how she dresses or acts because our culture feels it's somehow her "fault" if she dresses (or acts) in a certain way that makes a man feel entitled to sexually assault her. That is clearly HIS problem. He has NO right to say (or even think) "she was asking for it." ... I fully agree that a man does not have a right "to say (or even think) "she was asking for it" if "it" is to be sexually assaulted. But here is something that I know was true for myself as a male in our society. When I was single, I would dress a certain way and act a certain way when I was going out "asking for it" when the "it" was attention from females interested in having a conversation which might lead to a brief or long term relationship which I wished would include a physical component. I certainly hoped that my efforts would be rewarded. It seemed from my experience that some women I met were doing the same thing. Was I wrong to think that a woman who had obviously spend a great deal of time on her appearance to create an image that in our society is considered by most to be sexually appealing might be wishing for me to approach her to engage in conversation?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 10, 2016 15:07:19 GMT -5
Did it ever occur to anyone that having a conversation about what to do if you're faced with a drunk partner or if you're both drunk and thinking about hooking up could benefit BOTH sexes? Men get raped too. Men can be raped by women, men can be raped by other men. Women can also be raped by other women. The Having a conversation about safe drinking when it comes to sex would benefit PEOPLE. Lesbians can be raped, gay men can be raped, straight men can be raped. Yet the focus always seems to be on what is my responsibility as a woman to keep myself from being raped by a man. It's so ingrained in our culture that we can't even have a separate discussion about how to keep boys safe both from being accused and potentially being victims themselves. It always has to circle around back to talking about what a woman must do to prevent rape. We can never get away from it and that's the problem. No the focus is what is the responsibility of BOTH parties when alcohol is involved....there appears to be a different standard toward men and women on the issue...as well as how much responsibili both bear in it. A lot of the drinking issue revolves around what we think is a natural part of the "college experience," and drinking....and changing that would help both men and women. Um that is what I said. You and Miss T seem to be the only ones continously arguing that nobody is acknowleding women Where did I say anything about there being a different standard for men and women? We need to teach all people who are having or will be soon having sex what to do if you find your partner REGARDLESS OF WHAT GENDER THEY ARE OR IDENTIFY AS drunk or find BOTH PARTIES OF EITHER SEX drunk and are thinking about hooking up. There does that make it clearer what I said?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 10, 2016 15:28:48 GMT -5
... Where did I say anything about there being a different standard for men and women? ... I have no idea what you personally have or have not posted. It seems like what I have read is the idea that in the RL the system operates on there being a different standard.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 10, 2016 15:37:00 GMT -5
Could you explain this? Are you saying that you need to ask before you touch a pregnant woman's belly but it's OK to force physical contact with young children? Yes. At least as far as "forc[ing] physical contact with young children" is pinching a kid's cheek or insisting kids go hug Grandma. In the right circumstances, I have no issue with spontaneous hugging, kissing, hair fuzzing, tickling, picking up, hand on the shoulder, or most parental impositions on a reluctant child (e.g. show the lady your hand, pull your shirt up so the doctor can see, let her pull off the band-aid, etc.) Teaching children that "good touch" isn't possible without express verbal consent isn't a reasonable standard. Even if it was, it wouldn't do a blessed thing to curb rape. You might get a few less Josh Duggars touching their sisters, but only if you neglected to teach them about appropriate and inappropriate touch in the first place. An inappropriate touch is a forced touch, IDGAF what the relationship is between the two people involved. You're basically saying that their personal space can be invaded as long as the invader is an approved family member or friend. Seeing as most cases of molestation involve a family member or family friend, I find the "anyone who's family can touch you whether you like it or not" opinion problematic. I was forced to hug and kiss my share of creepy uncles and relatives that I didn't know from Adam, and I won't/don't make DS go through the same thing.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jun 10, 2016 16:26:54 GMT -5
Well here's all the answers in one place: www.huffingtonpost.com/good-men-project/this-is-how-you-teach-kids-about-consent_b_10360296.html?utm_hp_ref=parents&ir=ParentsI think the article is fine. However, anyone who has a teen/young adult knows that they do not listen to everything you tell them. Everyone hears the "Don't drink and drive" message, and I doubt there are very few people that are pro-drinking and driving, but some people continue to do it. When I was in college, I was "friends" with a guy who my mom did not want me dating, he was a different race than me. Honestly I did not want to date him either, not because of race, just not the guy I wanted to date. But when my mom told me she didn't approve, it made me want to do it more. Lasted a couple of weeks. I think we had most of the discussions in the article somewhere along the way with our kids. They seem to make mostly the correct decisions. My hope is just that when the do something wrong (and they will) that the consequences are not that bad. I think they are both really respectful young men and would never force themselves on a girl. I don't think either of them are into the party scene, just more of quiet personalities.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 10, 2016 16:32:39 GMT -5
The only people making that argument are you and PI. I agree that it's ludicrous, but since it's not what the rest of us are saying, it's a moot point. Anyway, back to discussing men...
Post Options
. Post by justme on 4 hours ago
Studies show 2-8 percent of rape accusations are false. That's in line with false accusations of any other crime. It's not like women are throwing around false rape accusations anymore than people are throwing around false theft accusations.
Is it bad when someone is falsely accused? Yes. Does it occur note with rape than other crimes? No.
All drunken sex is not consensual. Not consensual sex is rape.
I don't know how to quote in a quote so I copied and pasted Justme's post from earlier. In here she states "all drunken sex is not consensual. Not consensual sex is rape"....so, am I misreading that or did you miss it? Because if ALL drunken sex is not consensual and not consensual sex is rape...then anytime anyone on this board had drunken sex they were raped. I've had drunken sex...am I a rape victim and didn't know it?
Context people. He was going on and on about consensual drunken sex. I was saying not all drunk sex is consensual. I can see where you took that as what I meant. Differing of speech patterns places the not in different places as well as the context replying to. Not to mention my other posts that have explicitly mentioned instances where drunk sex is not rape.
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Virgil Showlion
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Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 10, 2016 17:13:14 GMT -5
I was forced to hug and kiss my share of creepy uncles and relatives that I didn't know from Adam, and I won't/don't make DS go through the same thing. I will. Hugging and kissing relatives is a part of life, even the creepy ones. There's a line, of course, but that falls well short of it. Touching and being touched without consent is a part of life, from childhood through to adulthood. Like most things, it's an issue of trust, context, and a firm sense of what is and isn't over the line. I can't fault you for drawing the line where you do, but I definitely don't draw it in the same place.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 10, 2016 17:15:34 GMT -5
I was forced to hug and kiss my share of creepy uncles and relatives that I didn't know from Adam, and I won't/don't make DS go through the same thing. I will. Hugging and kissing relatives is a part of life, even the creepy ones. There's a line, of course, but that falls well short of it. Touching and being touched without consent is a part of life, from childhood through to adulthood. Like most things, it's an issue of trust, context, and a firm sense of what is and isn't over the line. I can't fault you for drawing the line where you do, but I definitely don't draw it in the same place. There you have it people. It's all part of life! No wonder such high % of men said that they would force a woman to have sex. Part of life!!! BTW, if my husband ever touched me without me wanting him to - it would no longer be part of his life for a loooong time. But I guess as long as your wife is OK with it, then you are golden.
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