MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 10, 2016 10:41:03 GMT -5
I can't help but see parallels between drunk sex/possible rape and underage girls lying about their age and trying to sleep with older men. How many forms of ID do the men request? What if she has a fake ID that looks real? Especially if she's let into an 18+ establishment? A lot of what we emphasize is what to teach our boys regarding consent. Instead we need to teach ALL kids to not act like asshats and to warn them that alcohol/drugs increase likelihood of as what behavior.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 10, 2016 10:41:20 GMT -5
*asshat
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 10, 2016 10:45:27 GMT -5
I'll agree with you more once drunk girl no longer equals easy lay is in our society. Whether it's a joke or not. Just because a guy didn't give her the drinks personally to get her rip roaring drunk does not excuse him from thinking oh look at the drunk girl, I'll go talk to her. It does happen. Because drunk girl equals easy lay. Drunk girl equals do things she wouldn't do sober, meaning she might have sex with me drunk but not sober. Is that not an issue to you? Guys specifically choose to go after drunk girls to get laid. That's a problem and that's an issue with consent. good god...as a woman, I find that incredibly offensive. When did it become acceptable to put responsibility on someone else? How would some random guy know if I would have sex with him if I were sober? I honestly don't understand this thought process. Perhaps if I become an easy lay when I'm drunk I shouldn't be out getting drunk. Or if I am out getting drunk and being an easy lay, accept that I'M AN EASY LAY and not blame the guy. I've done things I'm not proud of while drunk but NEVER did I try to pin the responsibility on anyone but me.
You and I disagree on this. Thanks for pointing it out. Again. This thread is about what to tell our sons. That is the angle I am posting on this thread from. I am not talking about what girls should or shouldn't do, it's not relevant to this thread as far as I'm concerned. I am stating it is problem in our society that men purposefully go after drunk women for sex. And part of the reason why there is so much focus on the issue of consent when drinking is the fact that guys think drunk girl equals easy sex. That they can convince a drunk girl to have sex when they wouldn't have been able to sober, or at least it is a lot easier.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 10, 2016 10:46:01 GMT -5
I'll agree with you more once drunk girl no longer equals easy lay is in our society. Whether it's a joke or not. Just because a guy didn't give her the drinks personally to get her rip roaring drunk does not excuse him from thinking oh look at the drunk girl, I'll go talk to her. It does happen. Because drunk girl equals easy lay. Drunk girl equals do things she wouldn't do sober, meaning she might have sex with me drunk but not sober. Is that not an issue to you? Guys specifically choose to go after drunk girls to get laid. That's a problem and that's an issue with consent.I think part of the problem is guys, IMHO, usually think rape done by evil strangers who lurk in dark alleyways ready to jump on women and have their way with them. And they rightly insist they would never do such a terrible thing.
However, I can't remember how many stories I've read where the guy claims it was 'just' oral or "just" touching or 'if she had said something, I would have stopped, which means it wasn't rape' but she didn't say anything because she was passed out or incoherent. In summary they think fun things that happen at drunken parties among friends can never be rape.
I'm not sure what we can do to change this mind set, though.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 10:50:11 GMT -5
I'll agree with you more once drunk girl no longer equals easy lay is in our society. Whether it's a joke or not. Just because a guy didn't give her the drinks personally to get her rip roaring drunk does not excuse him from thinking oh look at the drunk girl, I'll go talk to her. It does happen. Because drunk girl equals easy lay. Drunk girl equals do things she wouldn't do sober, meaning she might have sex with me drunk but not sober. Is that not an issue to you? Guys specifically choose to go after drunk girls to get laid. That's a problem and that's an issue with consent. Is it not an issue with you that drunk guys have sex with people they wouldn't have had sex with while sober? Unfortunately we seem to be back to the discussion that other posters are claiming nobody is actually having in terms of discussing if drunk men should be able to have consensual sex with drunk woman. People do all sorts of things when they are drunk that they might not do sober, and we have criminal charges for some of them (i.e. driving drunk)....but I don't think drunken consensual sex at the time should be included in that lists of of potential criminal charges. I think there are lots of other grey areas too...like for example if a drunk guy wants to have sex with a completely sober woman and later regrets it, I don't necessarily think the woman should be able to have rape charges brought against her. I'm also a little unsure about if a woman is drunk and wanting to have sex with a sober guy think the guy should necessarily be charged either (unfortunately we have to draw the line somewhere because idiots will take advantage of those situations by saying "she wanted it and pursued me," when in reality they were being predators and trying to get them drunk for that purpose and that's not acceptable. They should have been "man enough" to say "you've drank too much, we're not going to do this tonight).
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 10, 2016 10:55:04 GMT -5
I'll agree with you more once drunk girl no longer equals easy lay is in our society. Whether it's a joke or not. Just because a guy didn't give her the drinks personally to get her rip roaring drunk does not excuse him from thinking oh look at the drunk girl, I'll go talk to her. It does happen. Because drunk girl equals easy lay. Drunk girl equals do things she wouldn't do sober, meaning she might have sex with me drunk but not sober. Is that not an issue to you? Guys specifically choose to go after drunk girls to get laid. That's a problem and that's an issue with consent. good god...as a woman, I find that incredibly offensive. When did it become acceptable to put responsibility on someone else? How would some random guy know if I would have sex with him if I were sober? I honestly don't understand this thought process. Perhaps if I become an easy lay when I'm drunk I shouldn't be out getting drunk. Or if I am out getting drunk and being an easy lay, accept that I'M AN EASY LAY and not blame the guy. I've done things I'm not proud of while drunk but NEVER did I try to pin the responsibility on anyone but me.
You might find this offensive, but it is true. You need to step back and look at it from the male perspective, NOT your female one. Hell, Howard Wollowitz on BBT jokes about this all the time, that is how pervasive this line of thought is. The few times I went out bar hopping when I was older, I used to watch this in action. Guys who hadn't paid a damn bit of attention to a female earlier in the evening all of a sudden were much more interested once she got drunk. Why do you think this is? Again, look at the letter that the rapist's dad penned to the judge in support of his son. There is no doubt in my mind where Brock got his thoughts on this from. Dad doesn't see anything wrong with banging a drunk, unconscious girl, so why should his son?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 10, 2016 10:58:30 GMT -5
Completely disagree with the statement in bold. Y ou and I may agree that those things are rape and wrong (for both men and women), but based on the surveys of college students and current rape statistics, not everybody does agree with that, few people are teaching boys/men about that and it's a big, huge issue how we get that message out and change societal attitudes about it. Look at how many of our own posters have mentioned that they haven't expressly discussed rape with their boys - and these are "good" people and "good" boys. Our culture often sends the exact opposite message to boys and until we start to address that, we won't be able to reduce rapes. BTW, I happen to agree with you that there are some very important things that the law and our society needs to work out regarding alcohol, impairment and consent. If we look at the entire population of rape accusations, IMHO the big, huge, hairy unaddressed issue is how little we educate boys/men about rape and consent and how little we as a society condemn these actions. If we did a better job with that, then the day-after regret false accusations or cases where we have to suss out who was drunker would be a big enough piece of the pie to focus more time/attention on. But the building is burning... I don't want to argue about whether someone left the shower running; let's put out the fire and then deal with the stuff that's wrong but not as urgent/pressing/large. I meant I think we are all in agreement on this board about that part of the issue and there is a need to teach boys those things, and I just mentioned in my previous post, I wonder how much changing our cultural view on binge drinking or drinking to get drunk would help the situation (especially in colleges)? If we agree that cutting down on abusing alcohol would very likely decrease the number of rapes, how do we go about changing the cultural view of drinking in college? Definitely changing our cultural view on binge drinking is part of this. And somehow moving the societal reaction to sex with a drunk person from laughing approval to caution or disapproval would help, too.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 10, 2016 11:00:32 GMT -5
I'll agree with you more once drunk girl no longer equals easy lay is in our society. Whether it's a joke or not. Just because a guy didn't give her the drinks personally to get her rip roaring drunk does not excuse him from thinking oh look at the drunk girl, I'll go talk to her. It does happen. Because drunk girl equals easy lay. Drunk girl equals do things she wouldn't do sober, meaning she might have sex with me drunk but not sober. Is that not an issue to you? Guys specifically choose to go after drunk girls to get laid. That's a problem and that's an issue with consent. Is it not an issue with you that drunk guys have sex with people they wouldn't have had sex with while sober? Unfortunately we seem to be back to the discussion that other posters are claiming nobody is actually having in terms of discussing if drunk men should be able to have consensual sex with drunk woman. People do all sorts of things when they are drunk that they might not do sober, and we have criminal charges for some of them (i.e. driving drunk)....but I don't think drunken consensual sex at the time should be included in that lists of of potential criminal charges. I think there are lots of other grey areas too...like for example if a drunk guy wants to have sex with a completely sober woman and later regrets it, I don't necessarily think the woman should be able to have rape charges brought against her. I'm also a little unsure about if a woman is drunk and wanting to have sex with a sober guy think the guy should necessarily be charged either (unfortunately we have to draw the line somewhere because idiots will take advantage of those situations by saying "she wanted it and pursued me," when in reality they were being predators and trying to get them drunk for that purpose and that's not acceptable. They should have been "man enough" to say "you've drank too much, we're not going to do this tonight). But drunk guys are easy lays is not pervasive in our society. In fact, what's pervasive about drunk guys is drunk guys have whiskey dicks. So women out there wanting an easy lay don't want the guy that's too drunk to get it up. Anecdotal, but I have heard guys say oh look that girl is drunk you should go talk to her now. Or oh man is she drunk, you're going to have fun tonight. (Furthermore, like mich said, those statements are often said in movies and tv shows, that's how pervasive the idea is). I have never heard a girl go oh look at that drunk guy I'm going to go get myself laid. In fact I've often seen girls stop talking to guys because they got too drunk. I've had friends come back from going to say hi to a hot guy saying "girl he was so drunk".
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 10, 2016 11:02:10 GMT -5
OK, so let's cut out all the noise - for anyone who wants to know what I will be /am teaching my 3 boys:
For now: 1. Your body is your own. Don't let anyone touch you without you being OK with that. Use the same principle in reverse - don't touch anyone without them being OK with it.
For later:
2. Don't have sex with someone you just met - drunk or sober. You have no idea what is going on in their head, so just don't
3. Don't get so drunk that you loose control. I haven't thought this through completely, but there is a good chance that I will want my kids to learn to drink at home, so they know what and how much they can tolerate.
4. If you are too embarrassed to discuss anything sex related with the person - you shouldn't be having sex with that person.
5. Birth control is not something women do. You better be wearing a condom every.single.time
That's all I have for now. But my oldest is only 7, so I have a few years to think more about it
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 10, 2016 11:13:44 GMT -5
good god...as a woman, I find that incredibly offensive. When did it become acceptable to put responsibility on someone else? How would some random guy know if I would have sex with him if I were sober? I honestly don't understand this thought process. Perhaps if I become an easy lay when I'm drunk I shouldn't be out getting drunk. Or if I am out getting drunk and being an easy lay, accept that I'M AN EASY LAY and not blame the guy. I've done things I'm not proud of while drunk but NEVER did I try to pin the responsibility on anyone but me.
You might find this offensive, but it is true. You need to step back and look at it from the male perspective, NOT your female one. Hell, Howard Wollowitz on BBT jokes about this all the time, that is how pervasive this line of thought is. The few times I went out bar hopping when I was older, I used to watch this in action. Guys who hadn't paid a damn bit of attention to a female earlier in the evening all of a sudden were much more interested once she got drunk. Why do you think this is? Again, look at the letter that the rapist's dad penned to the judge in support of his son. There is no doubt in my mind where Brock got his thoughts on this from. Dad doesn't see anything wrong with banging a drunk, unconscious girl, so why should his son? Unconscious is totally different than just drunk. Every stat out there says even one drink impairs your judgment when driving. So where exactly is the line? And why would it be up to anyone but me to decide when to have sex? Im held responsible for my actions if I drive drunk. Following this logic of Im too drunk to make the decision to have D&C then I shouldn't be held responsible if I drive drunk and kill someone. Im just a woman. Too stupid to know her limits
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 10, 2016 11:21:20 GMT -5
In my personal opinion if at anytime someone says "No" it doesn't even matter if the dick is already in her vagina and she's pushing him off saying "I can't." and that person doesn't stop it's rape.
If someone texted you saying "Yeah we can have sex," and the person shows up and then the person that texted that changes their mind because they get scared and the person then forces themselves on them saying "Well you told me earlier we could" it's rape. Sadly, if it's brought to court they'll use it against the person even though it's still rape.
If someone's married and the partner doesn't want to have sex and the spouse forces them to have sex...it's rape.
If at anytime no matter how drunk someone is and the word "No" is said and someone keeps going, or forces themselves upon someone, it's rape.
If a person is unable to say no or say yes...as in they're passed out...it's rape.
If both people consent in my opinion it's not rape. And if they're both super drunk and neither stop it or say no... yeah, it's a draw.
-- But no matter how drunk someone is... even a drunk person knows "no means no" they just don't care at that point.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 10, 2016 11:25:35 GMT -5
The difference between drunk driving and raping someone is...
"I'm not that drunk, so I should be okay to drive." even drunk people that argue with people that tell them not to drive insist they're okay to drive but they know that, that person is telling them no they're just disagreeing with their no. I def think someone needs to be held responsible if they drink and drive... but there's a huge difference in thinking you're okay to drive because you're not that drunk and raping someone who tells you no. You don't suddenly lose the ability to know that "no means no"
"Oh she said no but what does no mean?"
The second just is bonkers.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 10, 2016 11:29:50 GMT -5
The difference between drunk driving and raping someone is... "I'm not that drunk, so I should be okay to drive." even drunk people that argue with people that tell them not to drive insist they're okay to drive but they know that, that person is telling them no they're just disagreeing with their no. I def think someone needs to be held responsible if they drink and drive... but there's a huge difference in thinking you're okay to drive because you're not that drunk and raping someone who tells you no. You don't suddenly lose the ability to know that "no means no" "Oh she said no but what does no mean?" The second just is bonkers. You are confusing what we are talking about. If a woman says no and a drunk guy rapes her, that's rape. I'm talking about a drunk woman who says yes but the next day cries rape because she was drunk. That is not rape. That was a poor choice and one she regrets. But to cry rape? bullshit
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 10, 2016 11:31:30 GMT -5
The difference between drunk driving and raping someone is... "I'm not that drunk, so I should be okay to drive." even drunk people that argue with people that tell them not to drive insist they're okay to drive but they know that, that person is telling them no they're just disagreeing with their no. I def think someone needs to be held responsible if they drink and drive... but there's a huge difference in thinking you're okay to drive because you're not that drunk and raping someone who tells you no. You don't suddenly lose the ability to know that "no means no" "Oh she said no but what does no mean?" The second just is bonkers. You are confusing what we are talking about. If a woman says no and a drunk guy rapes her, that's rape. I'm talking about a drunk woman who says yes but the next day cries rape because she was drunk. That is not rape. That was a poor choice and one she regrets. But to cry rape? bullshit Oh dude. I was skimming. But I'm really bad at quoting people so sometimes it looks like I'm just talking to talk. Someone asked me something like three pages back. =P I wasn't responding to what you were saying!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 10, 2016 11:33:41 GMT -5
For the record - all the things that I am /will be teaching my boys I would be teaching girls, if I had any. May be I would tell them to double up on birth control.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 10, 2016 11:34:35 GMT -5
You are confusing what we are talking about. If a woman says no and a drunk guy rapes her, that's rape. I'm talking about a drunk woman who says yes but the next day cries rape because she was drunk. That is not rape. That was a poor choice and one she regrets. But to cry rape? bullshit Oh dude. I was skimming. But I'm really bad at quoting people so sometimes it looks like I'm just talking to talk. Someone asked me something like three pages back. =P I wasn't responding to what you were saying! LOL! I totally get that...I will come into an argument 8 pages in and just start talking...lol
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 10, 2016 11:38:03 GMT -5
Oh dude. I was skimming. But I'm really bad at quoting people so sometimes it looks like I'm just talking to talk. Someone asked me something like three pages back. =P I wasn't responding to what you were saying! LOL! I totally get that...I will come into an argument 8 pages in and just start talking...lol Hey! at least I'm not the only one. But no. We actually agree on that. I don't think it's rape if they both said yes and were both drunk. I think that's just a lot of poor mistakes.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 10, 2016 11:41:45 GMT -5
LOL! I totally get that...I will come into an argument 8 pages in and just start talking...lol Hey! at least I'm not the only one. But no. We actually agree on that. I don't think it's rape if they both said yes and were both drunk. I think that's just a lot of poor mistakes. Exactly. Speaking from experience (mine and most of my friends) if we use being drunk as the measuring stick of whether we have been raped, then I have to think 90% of college aged women have been raped! Which is why I find the entire argument beyond ludicrous. Instead of strengthening the fight against rape, I think it is weakening it. FFS, if we call everything rape then how can it be a serious issue? It is just hungover MissTequila regretting her drunken hookup. Meanwhile, poor Suzie down the hall said no and her date raped her.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 11:48:32 GMT -5
You might find this offensive, but it is true. You need to step back and look at it from the male perspective, NOT your female one. Hell, Howard Wollowitz on BBT jokes about this all the time, that is how pervasive this line of thought is. The few times I went out bar hopping when I was older, I used to watch this in action. Guys who hadn't paid a damn bit of attention to a female earlier in the evening all of a sudden were much more interested once she got drunk. Why do you think this is? Again, look at the letter that the rapist's dad penned to the judge in support of his son. There is no doubt in my mind where Brock got his thoughts on this from. Dad doesn't see anything wrong with banging a drunk, unconscious girl, so why should his son? Unconscious is totally different than just drunk. Every stat out there says even one drink impairs your judgment when driving. So where exactly is the line? And why would it be up to anyone but me to decide when to have sex? Im held responsible for my actions if I drive drunk. Following this logic of Im too drunk to make the decision to have D&C then I shouldn't be held responsible if I drive drunk and kill someone. Im just a woman. Too stupid to know her limits I'm not sure why people are getting upset when you say you think women should be held just as accountable for their bad drunken decisions as men, and you are right that unconscious is totally different than just drunk just like forcing sex after a person says no is different than consensual drunken sex...but it almost seems like people want to blur the lines between the two and from a legal standpoint, it's a problem that both can be considered rape.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 10, 2016 11:49:36 GMT -5
You might find this offensive, but it is true. You need to step back and look at it from the male perspective, NOT your female one. Hell, Howard Wollowitz on BBT jokes about this all the time, that is how pervasive this line of thought is. The few times I went out bar hopping when I was older, I used to watch this in action. Guys who hadn't paid a damn bit of attention to a female earlier in the evening all of a sudden were much more interested once she got drunk. Why do you think this is? Again, look at the letter that the rapist's dad penned to the judge in support of his son. There is no doubt in my mind where Brock got his thoughts on this from. Dad doesn't see anything wrong with banging a drunk, unconscious girl, so why should his son? Unconscious is totally different than just drunk. Every stat out there says even one drink impairs your judgment when driving. So where exactly is the line? And why would it be up to anyone but me to decide when to have sex? Im held responsible for my actions if I drive drunk. Following this logic of Im too drunk to make the decision to have D&C then I shouldn't be held responsible if I drive drunk and kill someone. Im just a woman. Too stupid to know her limits You are talking about you. You are female, and this discussion is not about this, but what to tell males. If if the pervasive attitude among MALES is to try to take advantage of a drunk female.....and it is, all you have to do is go to a clubs or watch TV......THAT is the attitude that needs to change. According to males, drunk females are bait to try to hook in. While logic states that females shouldn't get drunk, don't you think that trying to change this attitude might go a long way in trying to solve the problem?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 11:49:41 GMT -5
I meant I think we are all in agreement on this board about that part of the issue and there is a need to teach boys those things, and I just mentioned in my previous post, I wonder how much changing our cultural view on binge drinking or drinking to get drunk would help the situation (especially in colleges)? If we agree that cutting down on abusing alcohol would very likely decrease the number of rapes, how do we go about changing the cultural view of drinking in college? Definitely changing our cultural view on binge drinking is part of this. And somehow moving the societal reaction to sex with a drunk person from laughing approval to caution or disapproval would help, too. Probably true, but figuring out how to do it is the challenge.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 10, 2016 11:53:40 GMT -5
Unconscious is totally different than just drunk. Every stat out there says even one drink impairs your judgment when driving. So where exactly is the line? And why would it be up to anyone but me to decide when to have sex? Im held responsible for my actions if I drive drunk. Following this logic of Im too drunk to make the decision to have D&C then I shouldn't be held responsible if I drive drunk and kill someone. Im just a woman. Too stupid to know her limits I'm not sure why people are getting upset when you say you think women should be held just as accountable for their bad drunken decisions as men, and you are right that unconscious is totally different than just drunk just like forcing sex after a person says no is different than consensual drunken sex...but it almost seems like people want to blur the lines between the two and from a legal standpoint, it's a problem that both can be considered rape. What I'm getting out all of this is that women are equal until we don't want to be. I have no other explanation for the attitudes that women can't be held responsible for their decisions but men can be. I'm offended as a woman. Just another reason for men to not treat us as equals. Why should they when we all clammer than getting drunk and having sex can't possibly be our fault!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 10, 2016 11:55:11 GMT -5
Unconscious is totally different than just drunk. Every stat out there says even one drink impairs your judgment when driving. So where exactly is the line? And why would it be up to anyone but me to decide when to have sex? Im held responsible for my actions if I drive drunk. Following this logic of Im too drunk to make the decision to have D&C then I shouldn't be held responsible if I drive drunk and kill someone. Im just a woman. Too stupid to know her limits You are talking about you. You are female, and this discussion is not about this, but what to tell males. If if the pervasive attitude among MALES is to try to take advantage of a drunk female.....and it is, all you have to do is go to a clubs or watch TV......THAT is the attitude that needs to change. According to males, drunk females are bait to try to hook in. While logic states that females shouldn't get drunk, don't you think that trying to change this attitude might go a long way in trying to solve the problem? But again, you are acting like the only ones going out looking to get laid are the men. While I have never been one for random hookups I know many women who have been. they had no issue going out drinking and finding a guy to hook up with. We can't have it both ways. Either we are delicate flowers that need to be protected from men or we are equals that can hold our own.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 10, 2016 12:02:28 GMT -5
... Anecdotal, but I have heard guys say oh look that girl is drunk you should go talk to her now. ... Anecdotal, I was with a girl in college who stopped our naked activity before intercourse. In a subsequent very good clothed conversation, she told me that I was the first guy she had been with when she wasn't drunk and that she needed to have a few drinks before her inhibitions fell away enough to have her desire for sex satisfied.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 10, 2016 12:40:37 GMT -5
Did it ever occur to anyone that having a conversation about what to do if you're faced with a drunk partner or if you're both drunk and thinking about hooking up could benefit BOTH sexes?
Men get raped too. Men can be raped by women, men can be raped by other men.
Women can also be raped by other women.
Having a conversation about safe drinking when it comes to sex would benefit PEOPLE. Lesbians can be raped, gay men can be raped, straight men can be raped.
Yet the focus always seems to be on what is my responsibility as a woman to keep myself from being raped by a man.
It's so ingrained in our culture that we can't even have a separate discussion about how to keep boys safe both from being accused and potentially being victims themselves. It always has to circle around back to talking about what a woman must do to prevent rape. We can never get away from it and that's the problem.
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midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,720
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Post by midjd on Jun 10, 2016 12:48:36 GMT -5
The only people making that argument are you and PI. I agree that it's ludicrous, but since it's not what the rest of us are saying, it's a moot point.
Anyway, back to discussing men...
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kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 10, 2016 12:54:22 GMT -5
It's so ingrained in our culture that we can't even have a separate discussion about how to keep boys safe both from being accused and potentially being victims themselves. It always has to circle around back to talking about what a woman must do to prevent rape. We can never get away from it and that's the problem.
times 1,000
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kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 10, 2016 13:00:11 GMT -5
Women shouldn't "have" to "protect" themselves.
NOBODY should "have" to "protect" themselves.
We need to create a society and a culture where individuals can wander unmolested, because everyone keeps their hands (and their verbiage, and their biases) to themselves and doesn't see others (regardless of race, sex, gender, creed, color LGBTQ status etcetera, ad nauseum) as something they can use or manipulate.
THAT is the real value of this case - - it is causing us to talk on a national level, and we need to keep doing it (talk about what is acceptable and what is not).
ETA: I'm not so naïve as to think that there aren't evil people out there, and that a prudent course of action is to take precautions against running into one of them. But the problem is: that argument (evil people are out there; boys will be boys; etc) lets us off the hook as a culture from facing the real issue, which is that these actions are unacceptable and need to be called out and dealt with as such.
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billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 38,242
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 10, 2016 13:13:38 GMT -5
... It always has to circle around back to talking about what a woman must do to prevent rape. We can never get away from it and that's the problem. Yes it is a problem. A suggest I have to break the circle is to simply not respond at all on this thread to anyone who takes the topic that direction.
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whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 10, 2016 13:22:53 GMT -5
Women shouldn't "have" to "protect" themselves.
NOBODY should "have" to "protect" themselves.
We need to create a society and a culture where individuals can wander unmolested, because everyone keeps their hands (and their verbiage, and their biases) to themselves and doesn't see others (regardless of race, sex, gender, creed, color LGBTQ status etcetera, ad nauseum) as something they can use or manipulate.
THAT is the real value of this case - - it is causing us to talk on a national level, and we need to keep doing it (talk about what is acceptable and what is not).
ETA: I'm not so naïve as to think that there aren't evil people out there, and that a prudent course of action is to take precautions against running into one of them. But the problem is: that argument (evil people are out there; boys will be boys; etc) lets us off the hook as a culture from facing the real issue, which is that these actions are unacceptable and need to be called out and dealt with as such. And as I said in the other thread, we need to lead by example. Don't try to touch a pregnant's woman belly. Don't try to squeeze a cheek of a cute toddler. Don't try to force your kid to hug grandma. Start early. Waaay earlier than any sex talk even enters into a picture.
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