DagnyT
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Post by DagnyT on Jun 10, 2016 0:19:53 GMT -5
Fine, post wherever the hell you want. And I vehemently disagree. Telling people to protect yourself by doing X implies that if you do X then you can protect yourself. So not doing X means you're not protecting yourself. And if you're not protecting yourself, well then whose fault is it? And if you say that it's not their fault, then why bring "protecting yourself" into it. Either it protects you from things or it doesn't. So which is it? All it means is that it can help prevent it from happening or lessen the chances of it. If you tell somebody to look both ways before crossing the street will help prevent you from getting hit by a car, it doesn't mean it will protect you from the crazy drunk driver or the driver on a rampage, but that overall it will help keep you safer. I think that is all Dangny was trying to say, that it is not enough to just "teach" men, but we also need to teach our daughters to "look both ways when they are crossing the street" too. It's not blaming the people who get hit by cars saying "they should have looked both ways first," it's saying we need to teach them both to help limit them both from being in those situations. This is right on target!!!!
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 0:23:06 GMT -5
To be fair, it also probably never just be about what girls can do to protect themselves either. Were you ever told what to do to protect yourself from rape? Were you ever taught the nuances of rape and about consent? I learned that I should try and keep myself from getting in bad situations and I was responsible for my actions, drunk or sober. As to your second question, I was taught that no means no and don't force myself on anyone...but I wasn't taught that if both she and I were drunk, I could be held liable for rape. Although to be fair, I didn't want to have sex until I was married and no that didn't come from my parents who were concerned that I wasn't trying to have sex all the time.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 0:45:05 GMT -5
I think guys being falsely accused is horrible. Not just for the guy, which it is utterly horrible for him. But also for women because it becomes just another thing for rapists to use to say that this women wasn't raped. But you know what I can't help thinking every time a conversation about how to teach boys about rape and keep them from raping turns to women falsely accusing men of rape? (Which, to be clear, is along the same line of it immediately jumping to what women need to protect themsleves. It's immediately changing the conversation from men's actions to women's actions.) All the anti-vaxxers. One person gets seriously injured by a vaccine and suddenly they're calling for all vaccines to stop. One person thinks that autism is connected to vaccines and suddenly any kid who has autism it's looked at whether the vaccine had anything to do with it. Regardless of studies that say vaccines have nothing to do with autism. Regardless of studies that say it's a really small percent that are injured by vaccines suddenly every vaccine is questioned and maybe they're all bad. Maybe I'm wrong to see some corollary in the instances, but I do. If you are going to have a discussion about rape, then it is important to have an understanding of what people view as rape. The definition has expanded from have sex that was forced, non-consensual, while drugged or passed out to "if you've had anything to drink at all, even if you say yes then you still can call it rape because you aren't capable to make your own decisions at that point in time." I wonder how feminists view this addition (yes I realize there is likely mixed opinions because not one person encapsulates the whole movement). I'm not sure if more would cheer for it as additional protection of women (even though that same protection isn't extended to men and actually puts significantly more burden on men than women) or if more would be enraged by people thinking women don't have the capability to consent to sex after drinking anything at all. Honestly, we'd probably be on the same page for the most part, except for the use of alcohol between both parties and if only one party (men) should be held accountable for those actions while women can legitimately claim rape if they have regret about it because "they aren't able to give consent if they've been drinking." It is that one major sticking point (and maybe a few others) that you don't seem willing to concede because you don't seem to believe "it's enough of an issue to worry about." I also think the burden of not being able to give consent after drinking anything is far too low, but I don't know a good measure to use in that regard because saying everything is acceptable unless the woman is passed out is way too far to the other extreme. And to answer another post you put in one of these threads about us not focusing on telling men they shouldn't drink too much...we actually do tell men that, especially if they get drunk and have sex with a woman they regret having sex with in the morning. Even if the woman was sober, we don't claim she raped him, society says "it's his fault and he shouldn't have drank so much." So if we actually took every man who had a drunken one night stand they regret, if we tried to say they couldn't legally give consent and they could file rape charges...we actually probably would have more of a discussion about what they could do to keep it from happening to them again; but because we actually don't view it the same way, we don't have those discussions and "blame the victim" by saying "he shouldn't have drank so much." Society has also ingrained it in men that in those situations, they are only a victim of their own stupidity whereas women are taught that they are victims of men trying to take advantage of their drunken state.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 10, 2016 7:26:04 GMT -5
I'm glad Sroo asked me to start this thread. It's s perfect illustration of how any discussion of rape immediately (9 posts) goes to the woman's role in preventing it.
We should talk to our children about how not to be a victim. But it's sad that I have to have a different conversation with My daughter than my son.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jun 10, 2016 8:00:31 GMT -5
More than 80 percent of sexual assaults are done by someone the women knows. 80 percent!!!! It's not some stranger stalking an alley - it's the girls friend that she hangs out with. The guy from science she was in a study group with. Etc etc. These guys KNOW the girl and yet they still rape them. How is all rape not violent? Inserting something into another person's body against their will is not violent? Tearing and abrasions is not violent? And against a persons will who either says no, is unconscious, or drugged is absolutely an issue that I do not think anybody is arguing here. The question is what about those who are consenting, are fully awake, but have also been drinking? Is it right for that to also be considered rape? You keep repeating this question. It doesn't make it any less of a straw man argument. Less than 20% of rapes are reported. No matter what men think, there is not an epidemic of people having regrets about consenting sec and crying rape. The numbers simply don't bear that out. Stop with the red herrings and go away if you can't manage to participate in the actual topic.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 10, 2016 8:14:15 GMT -5
I think guys being falsely accused is horrible. Not just for the guy, which it is utterly horrible for him. But also for women because it becomes just another thing for rapists to use to say that this women wasn't raped. But you know what I can't help thinking every time a conversation about how to teach boys about rape and keep them from raping turns to women falsely accusing men of rape? (Which, to be clear, is along the same line of it immediately jumping to what women need to protect themsleves. It's immediately changing the conversation from men's actions to women's actions.) All the anti-vaxxers. One person gets seriously injured by a vaccine and suddenly they're calling for all vaccines to stop. One person thinks that autism is connected to vaccines and suddenly any kid who has autism it's looked at whether the vaccine had anything to do with it. Regardless of studies that say vaccines have nothing to do with autism. Regardless of studies that say it's a really small percent that are injured by vaccines suddenly every vaccine is questioned and maybe they're all bad. Maybe I'm wrong to see some corollary in the instances, but I do. If you are going to have a discussion about rape, then it is important to have an understanding of what people view as rape. The definition has expanded from have sex that was forced, non-consensual, while drugged or passed out to "if you've had anything to drink at all, even if you say yes then you still can call it rape because you aren't capable to make your own decisions at that point in time." I wonder how feminists view this addition (yes I realize there is likely mixed opinions because not one person encapsulates the whole movement). I'm not sure if more would cheer for it as additional protection of women (even though that same protection isn't extended to men and actually puts significantly more burden on men than women) or if more would be enraged by people thinking women don't have the capability to consent to sex after drinking anything at all. Honestly, we'd probably be on the same page for the most part, except for the use of alcohol between both parties and if only one party (men) should be held accountable for those actions while women can legitimately claim rape if they have regret about it because "they aren't able to give consent if they've been drinking." It is that one major sticking point (and maybe a few others) that you don't seem willing to concede because you don't seem to believe "it's enough of an issue to worry about." I also think the burden of not being able to give consent after drinking anything is far too low, but I don't know a good measure to use in that regard because saying everything is acceptable unless the woman is passed out is way too far to the other extreme. And to answer another post you put in one of these threads about us not focusing on telling men they shouldn't drink too much...we actually do tell men that, especially if they get drunk and have sex with a woman they regret having sex with in the morning. Even if the woman was sober, we don't claim she raped him, society says "it's his fault and he shouldn't have drank so much." So if we actually took every man who had a drunken one night stand they regret, if we tried to say they couldn't legally give consent and they could file rape charges...we actually probably would have more of a discussion about what they could do to keep it from happening to them again; but because we actually don't view it the same way, we don't have those discussions and "blame the victim" by saying "he shouldn't have drank so much." Society has also ingrained it in men that in those situations, they are only a victim of their own stupidity whereas women are taught that they are victims of men trying to take advantage of their drunken state. Actually I've said several times that if both are equally impaired then neither can give consent. However if one, regardless of the sex, is not impaired by alcohol (either none or not enough to be drunk) then the responsibility lies with them. The problem is knowing when the other person is over the line. You can guess, but you can't know.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 10, 2016 8:29:12 GMT -5
No and I think that is part of the problem. He did not set out to intentionally do anything wrong or cause harm. Unfortunately rape is often a "he said/she said" type situation and apparently she claims she can't remember consenting. 20/20 hindsight he should have continued to say no. I doubt most guys are out there thinking "I am going to rape a chick tonight!". I am guessing a lot of them are getting themselves into situations like the above and don't quite know how to handle it. So, you think he raped her? IDK to be honest I was not there and I don't think my opinion matters in the grand scheme of things. I go with "innocent until proven guilty". If this were to go to trial it's up to the judge/jury to weigh the facts. While our system is not remotely perfect I do think it's one of the better ones out there. I do think he got himself into a really awkward situation and that's a problem. As demonstrated on the other thread we all have our own opinions on what "consent" means. To make a legal case of it I'd need an actual line in the sand. Like with drunk driving if you are 0.08 or over you are legally drunk and will get arrested. Consent for sex is A LOT more tricky since it involves everyone's personal views and hang ups when it comes to sex. I do think that's why discussions like this are important because it's helpful even if you don't agree to see where other people's lines are and maybe eventually come to some sort of consensus.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 10, 2016 8:32:15 GMT -5
Wouldn't it just be easier to teach kids of both genders, what the use and misuse of sex is, and the consequences of the misuse of sex?
When DS got his smart phone and iPad, we talked about what construed child porn, and the consequences of possession of child porn and distribution of it. I didn't go into a judgement call about whether or not girls SHOULD be sending naked pictures of themselves to others. I didn't tell DS he could be the victim of some else's choices. I did tell him it wrong for him to pull a Brett Farve. I just said "Dude. You have this. This is what happens with a smart phone and app are misused. And we talked about life as a registered sex offender.
I was reading another thread where married women think it's totally appropriate to use sex/sexual acts to manipulate their husbands into doing something, or as a reward for certain behavior from their husbands.
To me, that's misusing sex. Trading bj's to get something is much different than having your husband fulfill your emotional needs by acts of service, and then you decide to have sex.
Rape is another good example of the misuse of sex. No matter what the scenario (degree of drunkenness, consciousnesses, genders involved, etc.)
Sex while high. Misuse of alcohol and/or drugs and sex. It's a three-fer.
I think the discussion could also be extended to the misuse of sexuality. We think it's cute or funny when someone tries to get out of a ticket by using their sexuality. Or get extra drinks at the bar. At it's core, the behavior is still using some aspect of sexuality to try to manipulate another person.
Yet, I think we'd all agree that we shouldn't really be using sex to manipulate others.
You hear about men who post pictures of their partners on the internet...amateur porn sites...with out their partners knowing...Total misuse of sexuality.
A discussion of misuse of sex/sexuality also covers my husband's addiction.
"Don't misuse sex and sexuality." My kids like simple. I like simple. I think that statement, is well, simple.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 10, 2016 8:35:02 GMT -5
So, you think he raped her? IDK to be honest I was not there and I don't think my opinion matters in the grand scheme of things. I go with "innocent until proven guilty". If this were to go to trial it's up to the judge/jury to weigh the facts. While our system is not remotely perfect I do think it's one of the better ones out there. I do think he got himself into a really awkward situation and that's a problem. That's one of the things I talk to my boys about. It's risky to have sex with someone who's been drinking, because it's very tough to judge if they're able to give consent. It's been a great topic in our house and lead to other paths of discussion about drinking in general, party "strategy", how people act in different social settings, moderation, thinking ahead, how current public opinion impacts how certain acts are viewed, etc.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 8:58:13 GMT -5
And against a persons will who either says no, is unconscious, or drugged is absolutely an issue that I do not think anybody is arguing here. The question is what about those who are consenting, are fully awake, but have also been drinking? Is it right for that to also be considered rape? You keep repeating this question. It doesn't make it any less of a straw man argument. Less than 20% of rapes are reported. No matter what men think, there is not an epidemic of people having regrets about consenting sec and crying rape. The numbers simply don't bear that out. Stop with the red herrings and go away if you can't manage to participate in the actual topic. It's not a straw man argument because it actually is the argument people are making that any alcohol at all makes a woman incapable of providing consent, while also saying that men are fully capable of consent and being held responsible for those decisions. I'm not using the argument to take away from the seriousness of the topic, but I am questioning the definition expanding to consensual drunken sex. And it's not a red herring because it is part of the relevant discussion since the you cannot have a discussion about what we should tell our boys until you understand what should and should not be construed as consent or rape. So before you tell somebody to go away because you don't like their questioning, maybe you should actually try to answer the question because whether it is an epidemic or not is irrelevant. The fact that people think it should be an option to file charges after-the-fact in that type of situation is part of the issue because the damage it will do when it is abused makes it harder for people who were actually raped to get the help the need. Again, you can't even have an honest discussion about this subject when you don't even want to discuss whether situations like this should or shouldn't be classified as rape.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 10, 2016 9:01:48 GMT -5
The real question is how many people on this board would consider that rape? With a follow-up question being for those who would consider it rape, how many would find it acceptable to punish the boy/man for it? I would not consider that rape. No one should be punished. Neither would I. But of course my upbringing taught me that neither the man nor the woman should be in that situation in the first place, and to take steps to ensure this. Moreover, if by some tryst of circumstance my sister or I ever found ourselves in such circumstances, we had both the right and the obligation to get out of them by any means necessary. There were no conditions or caveats. As I see it, this thread is essentially a committee debating what changes should be included in "Guide to Picking Up Nickels in Front of Steamrollers", 2016 edition.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 10, 2016 9:07:44 GMT -5
Re: the Stamford case....I would be more open to say "it's hard to tell if he raped her" if witnesses hadn't seen him violating an obviously unconscious woman AND if he hadn't fled. If he didn't think he was doing anything wrong, why run?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 10, 2016 9:26:50 GMT -5
Re: the Stamford case....I would be more open to say "it's hard to tell if he raped her" if witnesses hadn't seen him violating an obviously unconscious woman AND if he hadn't fled. If he didn't think he was doing anything wrong, why run? She was unconscious so there is no doubt that he raped her.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 9:31:08 GMT -5
If you are going to have a discussion about rape, then it is important to have an understanding of what people view as rape. The definition has expanded from have sex that was forced, non-consensual, while drugged or passed out to "if you've had anything to drink at all, even if you say yes then you still can call it rape because you aren't capable to make your own decisions at that point in time." I wonder how feminists view this addition (yes I realize there is likely mixed opinions because not one person encapsulates the whole movement). I'm not sure if more would cheer for it as additional protection of women (even though that same protection isn't extended to men and actually puts significantly more burden on men than women) or if more would be enraged by people thinking women don't have the capability to consent to sex after drinking anything at all. Honestly, we'd probably be on the same page for the most part, except for the use of alcohol between both parties and if only one party (men) should be held accountable for those actions while women can legitimately claim rape if they have regret about it because "they aren't able to give consent if they've been drinking." It is that one major sticking point (and maybe a few others) that you don't seem willing to concede because you don't seem to believe "it's enough of an issue to worry about." I also think the burden of not being able to give consent after drinking anything is far too low, but I don't know a good measure to use in that regard because saying everything is acceptable unless the woman is passed out is way too far to the other extreme. And to answer another post you put in one of these threads about us not focusing on telling men they shouldn't drink too much...we actually do tell men that, especially if they get drunk and have sex with a woman they regret having sex with in the morning. Even if the woman was sober, we don't claim she raped him, society says "it's his fault and he shouldn't have drank so much." So if we actually took every man who had a drunken one night stand they regret, if we tried to say they couldn't legally give consent and they could file rape charges...we actually probably would have more of a discussion about what they could do to keep it from happening to them again; but because we actually don't view it the same way, we don't have those discussions and "blame the victim" by saying "he shouldn't have drank so much." Society has also ingrained it in men that in those situations, they are only a victim of their own stupidity whereas women are taught that they are victims of men trying to take advantage of their drunken state. Actually I've said several times that if both are equally impaired then neither can give consent. However if one, regardless of the sex, is not impaired by alcohol (either none or not enough to be drunk) then the responsibility lies with them. The problem is knowing when the other person is over the line. You can guess, but you can't know.I can agree with that sentiment, but that is a far cry from saying that woman drinking any type of alcoholic drink makes them unable to consent and counselors like the one oped mentioned should inform them that even if they were consenting at the time, they can still file rape charges if they wanted to because their drinking made them incapable of true consent. The definition of rape has expanded over the years, and for the most part the expansion has made sense...but my concern is that maybe it has expanded too far when situations like this one can be still be called rape. It may not be an epidemic, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem or can't become one (many people believe it's not really a problem until it happens to them or somebody they care about)...and honestly I think it would be hard to measure how many accusations are "morning-after regret" because I don't think a person who makes the decision to file rape charges in that circumstance is going to say that's what it is and unfortunately we are back to he said/she said. I just dislike that in that situation many people seem to believe that because "she" drank alcohol, "he" automatically becomes responsible for both of their decisions, even if they both were ready and willing at the time. My main point is that there should be a difference between how we view consensual drunken sex (even if people regret it later) versus rape, but many people seem to want to blur those lines together after the very first drink. Rape is a very real issue that needs addressed but telling men that women are not held to their decisions after drinking any alcohol and therefore the men can be held liable for rape if the women wanted to press the issue even if it was consensual at the time, seems as unfair as telling women that they shouldn't dress a certain way to avoid being raped (it's an extremely unfair standard that places all of the burden on one gender over the other in both situations).
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 10, 2016 9:43:59 GMT -5
I'm glad Sroo asked me to start this thread. It's s perfect illustration of how any discussion of rape immediately (9 posts) goes to the woman's role in preventing it. And of course - as this thread shows - we can't begin to talk to the boys at all until we figure out the exact definition of rape in every single scenario and exactly how much the woman is to blame. It's just not possible to begin to change the behaviour we know to be a problem without focusing on these issues which impact a very small percent of the cases...
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 10, 2016 9:49:53 GMT -5
You keep repeating this question. It doesn't make it any less of a straw man argument. Less than 20% of rapes are reported. No matter what men think, there is not an epidemic of people having regrets about consenting sec and crying rape. The numbers simply don't bear that out. Stop with the red herrings and go away if you can't manage to participate in the actual topic. It's not a straw man argument because it actually is the argument people are making that any alcohol at all makes a woman incapable of providing consent, while also saying that men are fully capable of consent and being held responsible for those decisions. I'm not using the argument to take away from the seriousness of the topic, but I am questioning the definition expanding to consensual drunken sex. And it's not a red herring because it is part of the relevant discussion since the you cannot have a discussion about what we should tell our boys until you understand what should and should not be construed as consent or rape. So before you tell somebody to go away because you don't like their questioning, maybe you should actually try to answer the question because whether it is an epidemic or not is irrelevant. The fact that people think it should be an option to file charges after-the-fact in that type of situation is part of the issue because the damage it will do when it is abused makes it harder for people who were actually raped to get the help the need. Again, you can't even have an honest discussion about this subject when you don't even want to discuss whether situations like this should or shouldn't be classified as rape. Please link to this claim in a post so the person/people who you claim are making this argument can respond to your questions. I can't help because you are the only one I see repeatedly making the claim that "any alcohol at all makes a woman incapable of providing consent." If there is some debate that a woman can't give consent if she's touched a drop of alcohol, that would be something to hash out. But that's also no reason that you can't start to talk to boys about things that are generally agreed to be rape. And the fact that you keep bringing up an argument nobody is making and would cover a very small percent of the cases anyway and - Shocker! - which implies the women are the problem or to blame - just serves to show how averse much of our society is about reducing rape by talking to boys/men. There is no agreement over whether tempting clothing causes rape, but still a great portion of the population feels compelled to tell their daughters and other women what not to wear to prevent rape...
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 10, 2016 9:55:33 GMT -5
I'm glad Sroo asked me to start this thread. It's s perfect illustration of how any discussion of rape immediately (9 posts) goes to the woman's role in preventing it. And of course - as this thread shows - we can't begin to talk to the boys at all until we figure out the exact definition of rape in every single scenario and exactly how much the woman is to blame. It's just not possible to begin to change the behaviour we know to be a problem without focusing on these issues which impact a very small percent of the cases... agreed. There is gray in everything. For example, simple rule/law is don't kill anyone. Then it gets more complicated. Well, don't kill anyone unless they are trying to kill you first. Well, then what does trying to kill you mean. Does it mean in the act of pulling a trigger of a gun that is pointed at you? Does it mean, about to pull out a gun, planning to pull out a gun, threatening to pull out a gun, swing a bat, swinging their fists? The gray area is what the courts decided. Just because we can't define every instance of when or when you should not kill someone doesn't mean we should not try to get people to not kill eachother.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 10, 2016 9:55:49 GMT -5
Studies show 2-8 percent of rape accusations are false. That's in line with false accusations of any other crime. It's not like women are throwing around false rape accusations anymore than people are throwing around false theft accusations.
Is it bad when someone is falsely accused? Yes. Does it occur note with rape than other crimes? No.
All drunken sex is not consensual. Not consensual sex is rape.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 10, 2016 9:59:09 GMT -5
... All drunken sex is not consensual. Not consensual sex is rape. So if all parties involved are drunk, who is the rapist?
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 10, 2016 10:03:58 GMT -5
... All drunken sex is not consensual. Not consensual sex is rape. So if all parties involved are drunk, who is the rapist? I've said multiple times that if both parties are equally inhibited/inebriated by alcohol it's a draw. I don't personally think the majority of instances are cases of equal inebriation.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 10, 2016 10:04:50 GMT -5
The problem is defining sex that's drunken enough to be not consensual.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 10:12:48 GMT -5
I'm glad Sroo asked me to start this thread. It's s perfect illustration of how any discussion of rape immediately (9 posts) goes to the woman's role in preventing it.
And of course - as this thread shows - we can't begin to talk to the boys at all until we figure out the exact definition of rape in every single scenario and exactly how much the woman is to blame. It's just not possible to begin to change the behaviour we know to be a problem without focusing on these issues which impact a very small percent of the cases... I don't think anybody has made that argument because I think we are all in agreement that we should teach boys that no means no, never force yourself on anybody, what a girl wears or what you buy her doesn't in any way entitle you to anything in return, and it's never ok to get somebody impaired on drugs and alcohol with the intention of getting them to have sex or to have sex with somebody who is unconscious (we don't seem to feel the need to teach girls the same thing, but it equally applies). Those are all things we agree on, and that's why there is no argument or discussion there beyond what I just said; but since we seem to be in agreement on that, the discussion naturally goes to a smaller percentage of cases and "grey areas." Also determining "how much the woman is to blame" is different than trying to determine how responsible the woman is for her decisions (although people seem to see them as the same thing), when sex is consensual but alcohol is involved. Understanding what is and isn't considered consent in those situations is part of the discussion. And as far as focusing on issues "which impact a very small percent of cases," how I read that is that you only want to discuss the cases when it can negatively affects women like the ones above (which we all seem to agree on), but not worry about situations that can negatively affect men because you don't think it's "big enough of an issue to address." Like I said before, many people don't think things are a big deal until it affects them or somebody they know.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 10, 2016 10:14:42 GMT -5
The problem is defining sex that's drunken enough to be not consensual. Coupled with the fact that there is frequently a passing of time before the question is raised so that a measure of drunkenness can be taken.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 10, 2016 10:21:07 GMT -5
And of course - as this thread shows - we can't begin to talk to the boys at all until we figure out the exact definition of rape in every single scenario and exactly how much the woman is to blame. It's just not possible to begin to change the behaviour we know to be a problem without focusing on these issues which impact a very small percent of the cases... I don't think anybody has made that argument because I think we are all in agreement that we should teach boys that no means no, never force yourself on anybody, what a girl wears or what you buy her doesn't in any way entitle you to anything in return, and it's never ok to get somebody impaired on drugs and alcohol with the intention of getting them to have sex or to have sex with somebody who is unconscious (we don't seem to feel the need to teach girls the same thing, but it equally applies). Those are all things we agree on, and that's why there is no argument or discussion there beyond what I just said; but since we seem to be in agreement on that, the discussion naturally goes to a smaller percentage of cases and "grey areas." Also determining "how much the woman is to blame" is different than trying to determine how responsible the woman is for her decisions (although people seem to see them as the same thing), when sex is consensual but alcohol is involved. Understanding what is and isn't considered consent in those situations is part of the discussion. And as far as focusing on issues "which impact a very small percent of cases," how I read that is that you only want to discuss the cases when it can negatively affects women like the ones above (which we all seem to agree on), but not worry about situations that can negatively affect men because you don't think it's "big enough of an issue to address." Like I said before, many people don't think things are a big deal until it affects them or somebody they know. Completely disagree with the statement in bold. You and I may agree that those things are rape and wrong (for both men and women), but based on the surveys of college students and current rape statistics, not everybody does agree with that, few people are teaching boys/men about that and it's a big, huge issue how we get that message out and change societal attitudes about it. Look at how many of our own posters have mentioned that they haven't expressly discussed rape with their boys - and these are "good" people and "good" boys. Our culture often sends the exact opposite message to boys and until we start to address that, we won't be able to reduce rapes. BTW, I happen to agree with you that there are some very important things that the law and our society needs to work out regarding alcohol, impairment and consent. If we look at the entire population of rape accusations, IMHO the big, huge, hairy unaddressed issue is how little we educate boys/men about rape and consent and how little we as a society condemn these actions. If we did a better job with that, then the day-after regret false accusations or cases where we have to suss out who was drunker would be a big enough piece of the pie to focus more time/attention on. But the building is burning... I don't want to argue about whether someone left the shower running; let's put out the fire and then deal with the stuff that's wrong but not as urgent/pressing/large.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 10:26:17 GMT -5
Studies show 2-8 percent of rape accusations are false. That's in line with false accusations of any other crime. It's not like women are throwing around false rape accusations anymore than people are throwing around false theft accusations. Is it bad when someone is falsely accused? Yes. Does it occur note with rape than other crimes? No. All drunken sex is not consensual. Not consensual sex is rape.Absolutely agree and I think we are in agreement that consensual drunken sex is not rape either. So beyond the traditional no means no, never force yourself on anybody, what a girl wears or what you buy her doesn't in any way entitle you to anything in return, and it's never ok to get somebody impaired on drugs and alcohol with the intention of getting them to have sex or to have sex with somebody who is unconscious...I think we need to add in there that issues with drinking alcohol and how you still have to live with the consequences of the decisions you make while inebriated. So in our current culture, a discussion of binge drinking and how it relates to the number of rapes seems to be a very relevant topic of discussion. I'm curious how many rapes would not occur if binge drinking or alcohol wasn't involved...to be clear, I am directing this more to if there wasn't a culture of binge drinking among men and women, or thinking it's "cool" to drink the most (especially by men), how much would this help the overall situation? Telling boys all the things mentioned in the 2nd sentence is easy and I think most would agree we should, changing the cultural view on drinking (especially in college) however is a different challenge all together. So if changing that attitude would help cut down on the number of rapes, what can we do to help change the view of binge drinking or drinking to get drunk?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 10, 2016 10:28:05 GMT -5
I don't think anybody has made that argument because I think we are all in agreement that we should teach boys that no means no, never force yourself on anybody, what a girl wears or what you buy her doesn't in any way entitle you to anything in return, and it's never ok to get somebody impaired on drugs and alcohol with the intention of getting them to have sex or to have sex with somebody who is unconscious (we don't seem to feel the need to teach girls the same thing, but it equally applies). Those are all things we agree on, and that's why there is no argument or discussion there beyond what I just said; but since we seem to be in agreement on that, the discussion naturally goes to a smaller percentage of cases and "grey areas." Also determining "how much the woman is to blame" is different than trying to determine how responsible the woman is for her decisions (although people seem to see them as the same thing), when sex is consensual but alcohol is involved. Understanding what is and isn't considered consent in those situations is part of the discussion. And as far as focusing on issues "which impact a very small percent of cases," how I read that is that you only want to discuss the cases when it can negatively affects women like the ones above (which we all seem to agree on), but not worry about situations that can negatively affect men because you don't think it's "big enough of an issue to address." Like I said before, many people don't think things are a big deal until it affects them or somebody they know. Completely disagree with the statement in bold. Y ou and I may agree that those things are rape and wrong (for both men and women), but based on the surveys of college students and current rape statistics, not everybody does agree with that, few people are teaching boys/men about that and it's a big, huge issue how we get that message out and change societal attitudes about it. Look at how many of our own posters have mentioned that they haven't expressly discussed rape with their boys - and these are "good" people and "good" boys. Our culture often sends the exact opposite message to boys and until we start to address that, we won't be able to reduce rapes. BTW, I happen to agree with you that there are some very important things that the law and our society needs to work out regarding alcohol, impairment and consent. If we look at the entire population of rape accusations, IMHO the big, huge, hairy unaddressed issue is how little we educate boys/men about rape and consent and how little we as a society condemn these actions. If we did a better job with that, then the day-after regret false accusations or cases where we have to suss out who was drunker would be a big enough piece of the pie to focus more time/attention on. But the building is burning... I don't want to argue about whether someone left the shower running; let's put out the fire and then deal with the stuff that's wrong but not as urgent/pressing/large. I meant I think we are all in agreement on this board about that part of the issue and there is a need to teach boys those things, and I just mentioned in my previous post, I wonder how much changing our cultural view on binge drinking or drinking to get drunk would help the situation (especially in colleges)? If we agree that cutting down on abusing alcohol would very likely decrease the number of rapes, how do we go about changing the cultural view of drinking in college?
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Jun 10, 2016 10:31:43 GMT -5
We need an app. Takes breathalyzer tests, records the results, and gets a video confirmation of each party saying "Yes, I choose to participate in this activity". Actually, I think there's one already out there...
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 10, 2016 10:33:27 GMT -5
I'll agree with you more once drunk girl no longer equals easy lay is in our society. Whether it's a joke or not.
Just because a guy didn't give her the drinks personally to get her rip roaring drunk does not excuse him from thinking oh look at the drunk girl, I'll go talk to her. It does happen. Because drunk girl equals easy lay. Drunk girl equals do things she wouldn't do sober, meaning she might have sex with me drunk but not sober. Is that not an issue to you?
Guys specifically choose to go after drunk girls to get laid. That's a problem and that's an issue with consent.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 10, 2016 10:38:26 GMT -5
I'll agree with you more once drunk girl no longer equals easy lay is in our society. Whether it's a joke or not. Just because a guy didn't give her the drinks personally to get her rip roaring drunk does not excuse him from thinking oh look at the drunk girl, I'll go talk to her. It does happen. Because drunk girl equals easy lay. Drunk girl equals do things she wouldn't do sober, meaning she might have sex with me drunk but not sober. Is that not an issue to you? Guys specifically choose to go after drunk girls to get laid. That's a problem and that's an issue with consent. good god...as a woman, I find that incredibly offensive. When did it become acceptable to put responsibility on someone else? How would some random guy know if I would have sex with him if I were sober? I honestly don't understand this thought process. Perhaps if I become an easy lay when I'm drunk I shouldn't be out getting drunk. Or if I am out getting drunk and being an easy lay, accept that I'M AN EASY LAY and not blame the guy. I've done things I'm not proud of while drunk but NEVER did I try to pin the responsibility on anyone but me.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 10, 2016 10:39:18 GMT -5
We need an app. Takes breathalyzer tests, records the results, and gets a video confirmation of each party saying "Yes, I choose to participate in this activity". Actually, I think there's one already out there... Something will come along that will take care of this easily, reliably, consistently. I am not sure if it will be just an app, but the tech world will come up with a solution that will become the gold standard of consent.
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