justme
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Post by justme on Jun 9, 2016 22:24:00 GMT -5
And once again we're back onto what women need to do to prevent rape and how their actions are contributory*. Even in a thread that's specifically titled "What should we tell our boys to get them to stop raping".
Oh, no - we're not blaming women at all. Even though we can't have a single discussion about rape or even specifically what we do in regards to the men who are raping without talking about what role the women play in preventing or controlling rape. No, gosh no, it's not about the woman at all....but let's direct most of our talk to the women. Because it's not their fault. Really.
* Not the posts immediately before this one. Whew! I was wondering what the hell I said for a minute there! Just to be clear though - I think it's his fault 100% even if she was sprawled out naked for all to see. That is not an open invitation to be raped, beaten, killed, spit on, or whatever else disgusting people might think to do. It would be her fault, however, to get an indecent exposure citation or whatever they issue for that situation in that state. Unless he took off her clothes. I don't care how drunk I've been, if I fall and start to bleed my first thought is not "oooh lets take off my clothes".* *That's assuming I even attempt to believe the she fell and that accounts for all the abrasions she had - abrasions that were bad enough that they had to be treated and covered by the ER. (Not that I think that's what you think)
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DagnyT
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Post by DagnyT on Jun 9, 2016 22:28:23 GMT -5
I read one account by the guy on the bicycle. He said it was shocking and that she did not wake up when he shook her. So my question remains when did she pass out? Did the guy, who was drunk also, even know she had passed out? Maybe he did and really did assault her. I don't know. I have not read his initial account to the police and I don't really have time to go looking for it. If I do at sometime, I will. My thoughts are that it is still not blaming the victim when we say that we need to teach girls and women ways to lessen the likelihood of them being in a situation like this one. Why does it matter when she passed out? You are totally missing the point in that the woman could not give consent. If you are that drunk, you are incapable of giving consent and the rapist essentially 'helped himself'. This is what 3 threads and pages of post have been discussing. Just because you cannot give consent does NOT mean you consent. Let me as you this. If you were recovering from surgery, still under anesthesia, and the doctor crawled on top of you and penetrated you, were you raped? This is really not different. Neither woman was in no shape to give consent, period. Finally, the rapist tried to run away when he was caught. He freaking knew he did wrong. They were both drinking. I am not saying he didn't assault her. The court found him guilty. He said he got sick and was throwing up. Maybe he is lying. I don't know and you don't know. I am not defending him and condemning her. Also, about being under anesthesia, that has got to be one of the worst analogies ever. In these situations, no one really knows what happened and I, for one, want our girls and women to use some common sense to try to protect themselves because the men or boys are not going to protect them.
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DagnyT
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Post by DagnyT on Jun 9, 2016 22:30:12 GMT -5
Would it make you happy if I just did not post? All I am saying is that as a mother of a college age girl, I want her to do whatever she can to protect herself. I am not blaming the girl. I think you know that. It makes me angry that other people make our young girls think that they can't help protect themselves. All girls will not be 100% safe, but if a few listen when their moms tell them to not get drunk off their ass so that they don't know what is going on, and therefore, they are less likely to be in a situation like this, then by all means blast me away into the stratosphere. Her point is THIS thread is about what to tell boys. What to teach them about rape. What to do to make sure they understand all the varying ways rape looks like. How to make sure they get true consent and not just a drunken head nod. Yet you bring up girls having to prevent rape. The thread is not about that. If you want to talk about that start a thread about that. Or go to the other thread where the topic has been beaten to death. The thread where it came up on what we can do to get BOYS to prevent rape and Swamp started this thread to get that discussion going. Because - newsflash - when it comes to men raping women the only people that can prevent that is men choosing not to rape, or not to have sex with an unconscious person, or not to have sex with a drunk girl. Threads wander and change direction all the time. There is no need to start another thread just because you don't like the way this one has wandered.
I didn't know there was another thread. And BTW, women can help protect themselves. And that is not blaming the victim. Just in case you don't know, I am a woman. No, I can't always protect myself from rape, but I can control how much alcohol I put in my body so that I am less likely to be in a situation like this. Telling girls to look out for themselves and their friends is not blaming the victim. It is helping them from being a victim.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 22:31:19 GMT -5
There already was a thread on that... This one was a branch off specifically to discuss the OP.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 9, 2016 22:31:30 GMT -5
Yup. That was my point in the other thread.
It can never be just about what people can do for boys and teaching them not to rape without bringing in a girl and what she can do to prevent it.
They'll always bring in "Well if it's this situation it can be prevented," as if someone getting drunk is the only way a girl gets raped.
It's actually more common that a girl gets raped by someone she knows and trusts then a stranger... I was watching Dr. Phil with my mom and they had statistics and such. It was sickening. A step-father was raping his spouses children...
But instead of talking about what we can say to boys, or talk about consent, someone always has to barge in with "WAIT A MINUTE... Just a second what about what a girl can do to prevent it.."
Then it turns into a conversation that practically makes the victim sound at blame.
Why can a conversation about what to stop men from raping woman ever stick to that without throwing in some blame card to a woman?
Some how someone always has to...no matter the situation find a way to turn it around and say it was some how preventable even if it hadn't been.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 9, 2016 22:34:33 GMT -5
Why does it matter when she passed out? You are totally missing the point in that the woman could not give consent. If you are that drunk, you are incapable of giving consent and the rapist essentially 'helped himself'. shou This is what 3 threads and pages of post have been discussing. Just because you cannot give consent does NOT mean you consent. Let me as you this. If you were recovering from surgery, still under anesthesia, and the doctor crawled on top of you and penetrated you, were you raped? This is really not different. Neither woman was in no shape to give consent, period. Finally, the rapist tried to run away when he was caught. He freaking knew he did wrong. They were both drinking. I am not saying he didn't assault her. The court found him guilty. He said he got sick and was throwing up. Maybe he is lying. I don't know and you don't know. I am not defending him and condemning her. Also, about being under anesthesia, that has got to be one of the worst analogies ever. In these situations, no one really knows what happened and I, for one, want our girls and women to use some common sense to try to protect themselves because the men or boys are not going to protect them. Once again, the Cliff Notes summary of this post is: they were both drinking. Nobody really knows what happened. So let's talk again about how women can and should prevent rape.
This is the problem. You can't think of a single thing we can "tell our boys to get them to stop raping" (even though that's the explicit request of the thread. You begin each of your threads by defending him - by saying who knows what happened - and then going into how women can prevent rape. It's all the issues we keep discussing in the other thread... over and over and over and over.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 9, 2016 22:35:30 GMT -5
Threads steer in a different direction all the time. The point of people getting upset is that we've already talked about this in another thread.
The point of the irritation IS some how talking about stopping boys from raping someone some how ALWAYS gets the woman brought into it and she's put to some blame. That's the issue with it.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 9, 2016 22:38:06 GMT -5
ALSO drinking OR NOT drinking.
Drinking doesn't mean someone suddenly thinks it's okay to rape someone. Drinking is NEVER an excuse for raping someone. Ever.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 9, 2016 22:39:40 GMT -5
Her point is THIS thread is about what to tell boys. What to teach them about rape. What to do to make sure they understand all the varying ways rape looks like. How to make sure they get true consent and not just a drunken head nod. Yet you bring up girls having to prevent rape. The thread is not about that. If you want to talk about that start a thread about that. Or go to the other thread where the topic has been beaten to death. The thread where it came up on what we can do to get BOYS to prevent rape and Swamp started this thread to get that discussion going. Because - newsflash - when it comes to men raping women the only people that can prevent that is men choosing not to rape, or not to have sex with an unconscious person, or not to have sex with a drunk girl. Threads wander and change direction all the time. There is no need to start another thread just because you don't like the way this one has wandered.
I didn't know there was another thread. And BTW, women can help protect themselves. And that is not blaming the victim. Just in case you don't know, I am a woman. No, I can't always protect myself from rape, but I can control how much alcohol I put in my body so that I am less likely to be in a situation like this. Telling girls to look out for themselves and their friends is not blaming the victim. It is helping them from being a victim.
Yet, without fail, any thread that tries to discuss what to teach boys to prevent rape immediately goes to women having to prevent rape. And the 9th post is immediate. A male could become just as much as a victim from drinking too much. Yet I don't see anyone saying how we need to tell boys not to drink to much to protect themselves. And that's nice that you think you have absolute control over how much alcohol you put in your body. Like it's impossible for someone to keep topping off your cup without you knowing. Or someone telling you it's just a vodka punch but in reality it's made with everclear. Telling someone to not do X to keep from being a victim is the same as telling them that if you do X and you're a victim well you asked for it. But there's a whole other thread that's discussing this that you can go and talk about how women can "prevent" rape over there
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 9, 2016 22:45:41 GMT -5
ALSO drinking OR NOT drinking. Drinking doesn't mean someone suddenly thinks it's okay to rape someone. Drinking is NEVER an excuse for raping someone. Ever. I have asked this before....what if both the man and woman are drunk, both consenting, and both awake, but in the morning one or the other regrets it. Should that be considered rape because some on this thread, and others seem to believe it should?
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DagnyT
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Post by DagnyT on Jun 9, 2016 22:50:54 GMT -5
They were both drinking. I am not saying he didn't assault her. The court found him guilty. He said he got sick and was throwing up. Maybe he is lying. I don't know and you don't know. I am not defending him and condemning her. Also, about being under anesthesia, that has got to be one of the worst analogies ever. In these situations, no one really knows what happened and I, for one, want our girls and women to use some common sense to try to protect themselves because the men or boys are not going to protect them. Once again, the Cliff Notes summary of this post is: they were both drinking. Nobody really knows what happened. So let's talk again about how women can and should prevent rape.
This is the problem. You can't think of a single thing we can "tell our boys to get them to stop raping" (even though that's the explicit request of the thread. You begin each of your threads by defending him - by saying who knows what happened - and then going into how women can prevent rape. It's all the issues we keep discussing in the other thread... over and over and over and over.
I have not read the other thread so it seems unfair to expect me to know what was said in that thread. It is also unfair to say that I am defending him. I think I made it clear that I was not defending him. I only know about this case because my daughter came home last night talking about the "swimmer at the college here in NC that followed the girl as she was leaving the library on campus, attacked her and raped her for twenty minutes and that it was caught on videotape but the judge still only gave him six months in prison." She had been talking to her friend who had apparently been playing "telephone" and didn't have the facts straight on this story. I told her it happened in CA and not in NC, so I read the story I found about it because I knew her story sounded really bizarre. I did not do exhaustive research on it.
As for what can we do to keep our men and boys from raping, that is a huge question. Violent rapists who stalk women and rape them, I don't think we can stop that. When it comes to consent, then I guess we need to teach our boys to get a signed contract before they have sex with anyone. I think that in some of these situations, the guy is just as drunk as the girl and he doesn't know what he is doing either. I think the best thing we can do in these situations is to teach the guys not to get drunk so that they are completely aware of what they are doing.
I left the girls completely out of this post so I hope that makes everyone happy.
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DagnyT
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Post by DagnyT on Jun 9, 2016 22:54:36 GMT -5
ALSO drinking OR NOT drinking. Drinking doesn't mean someone suddenly thinks it's okay to rape someone. Drinking is NEVER an excuse for raping someone. Ever. I have asked this before....what if both the man and woman are drunk, both consenting, and both awake, but in the morning one or the other regrets it. Should that be considered rape because some on this thread, and others seem to believe it should? No. That should not be considered rape. It is only regret.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 9, 2016 22:55:55 GMT -5
Threads wander and change direction all the time. There is no need to start another thread just because you don't like the way this one has wandered.
I didn't know there was another thread. And BTW, women can help protect themselves. And that is not blaming the victim. Just in case you don't know, I am a woman. No, I can't always protect myself from rape, but I can control how much alcohol I put in my body so that I am less likely to be in a situation like this. Telling girls to look out for themselves and their friends is not blaming the victim. It is helping them from being a victim.
Yet, without fail, any thread that tries to discuss what to teach boys to prevent rape immediately goes to women having to prevent rape. And the 9th post is immediate. A male could become just as much as a victim from drinking too much. Yet I don't see anyone saying how we need to tell boys not to drink to much to protect themselves. And that's nice that you think you have absolute control over how much alcohol you put in your body. Like it's impossible for someone to keep topping off your cup without you knowing. Or someone telling you it's just a vodka punch but in reality it's made with everclear. Telling someone to not do X to keep from being a victim is the same as telling them that if you do X and you're a victim well you asked for it. But there's a whole other thread that's discussing this that you can go and talk about how women can "prevent" rape over there Actually I think telling boys not to drink too much would help, especially if they can be accused of rape even if the woman was also consenting at the time, but because she was drinking too, only the man is held responsible for the actions that occur during that time and if she changes her mind in the morning, you could be charged with rape that will affect the rest of your life. So do not drink so much that you will do things you would not do sober or will regret in the morning, do not EVER force yourself on a woman, saying no means no....and while I have no issue with any of those, I do have issue with the line of logic that women are somehow incapable of making their own decisions after drinking whereas a guy is able to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 22:56:42 GMT -5
I am being very serious here and to the topic. I have no fear in teaching my son and daughter that they shouldn't touch someone who does not want to be touched. Yes. I have this discussion with my daughter who is a hugger all of the time, as well as my son. I have no fear in teaching my son and daughter that you never force a sexual situation. You never go forward without consent. You never feel as if you have to give consent if you don't really want to. I have no fear in teaching them that you never do anything to an unconsious person except ask if they need help and call 911.
I do have apprehension about how to teach avoidance of rape in the case where 'drunk is not capable of consent'... because it is a place where i cannot apparently teach my daughter and son the same things. Because she apparently can behave however she wants while drinking and not give consent. But he cannot. I don't know if this should be here or in the gender thread, or if they should be combined. But HERE is where i fall down on what to teach my son on 'how not to rape'.
I've had drunken sex with a guy in college... i have been told i could say it was rape even though we were both drinking, because i couldn't give consent... but i was not raped.
I have been the agressor in milee's example. If anything I would think my conduct would have been the one to be found at fault.. the idea that i could charge him with rape is crazy to me... so see, explaining to my son how he can not be 'that kind or rapist' is not as cut and dry.
I am coming around to never drink. Never have sex ever unless you get written consent (initialed periodically for conitnued consent) and a breathalizer test.
Actually, i'm coming around to arranged marriages.
I'm also concerned about a pendulum swing too far being bad news for rape victims in the long term.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 9, 2016 22:57:47 GMT -5
Once again, the Cliff Notes summary of this post is: they were both drinking. Nobody really knows what happened. So let's talk again about how women can and should prevent rape.
This is the problem. You can't think of a single thing we can "tell our boys to get them to stop raping" (even though that's the explicit request of the thread. You begin each of your threads by defending him - by saying who knows what happened - and then going into how women can prevent rape. It's all the issues we keep discussing in the other thread... over and over and over and over.
I have not read the other thread so it seems unfair to expect me to know what was said in that thread. It is also unfair to say that I am defending him. I think I made it clear that I was not defending him. I only know about this case because my daughter came home last night talking about the "swimmer at the college here in NC that followed the girl as she was leaving the library on campus, attacked her and raped her for twenty minutes and that it was caught on videotape but the judge still only gave him six months in prison." She had been talking to her friend who had apparently been playing "telephone" and didn't have the facts straight on this story. I told her it happened in CA and not in NC, so I read the story I found about it because I knew her story sounded really bizarre. I did not do exhaustive research on it.
As for what can we do to keep our men and boys from raping, that is a huge question. Violent rapists who stalk women and rape them, I don't think we can stop that. When it comes to consent, then I guess we need to teach our boys to get a signed contract before they have sex with anyone. I think that in some of these situations, the guy is just as drunk as the girl and he doesn't know what he is doing either. I think the best thing we can do in these situations is to teach the guys not to get drunk so that they are completely aware of what they are doing.
I left the girls completely out of this post so I hope that makes everyone happy.
More than 80 percent of sexual assaults are done by someone the women knows. 80 percent!!!! It's not some stranger stalking an alley - it's the girls friend that she hangs out with. The guy from science she was in a study group with. Etc etc. These guys KNOW the girl and yet they still rape them. How is all rape not violent? Inserting something into another person's body against their will is not violent? Tearing and abrasions is not violent?
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DagnyT
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Post by DagnyT on Jun 9, 2016 22:58:51 GMT -5
Threads wander and change direction all the time. There is no need to start another thread just because you don't like the way this one has wandered.
I didn't know there was another thread. And BTW, women can help protect themselves. And that is not blaming the victim. Just in case you don't know, I am a woman. No, I can't always protect myself from rape, but I can control how much alcohol I put in my body so that I am less likely to be in a situation like this. Telling girls to look out for themselves and their friends is not blaming the victim. It is helping them from being a victim.
Yet, without fail, any thread that tries to discuss what to teach boys to prevent rape immediately goes to women having to prevent rape. And the 9th post is immediate. A male could become just as much as a victim from drinking too much. Yet I don't see anyone saying how we need to tell boys not to drink to much to protect themselves. And that's nice that you think you have absolute control over how much alcohol you put in your body. Like it's impossible for someone to keep topping off your cup without you knowing. Or someone telling you it's just a vodka punch but in reality it's made with everclear. Telling someone to not do X to keep from being a victim is the same as telling them that if you do X and you're a victim well you asked for it. But there's a whole other thread that's discussing this that you can go and talk about how women can "prevent" rape over there No, it is not. Telling someone how to help protect themselves is not telling them that they asked for it. I graduated from college over 30 years ago and way back then, we were taught to not let someone top off our drinks, to not take a drink someone offered us, and to never put our drinks down.
You don't get to tell me where I can post.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 9, 2016 23:01:20 GMT -5
Ya know, in these threads I'm reminding of some instances...
The girl that says "not to be a bitch" but then precedes to be a bitch The guy that says "not to be a sexist" and then precedes to say a bunch of sexist things The person that says "I'm not a racist" and then says racist things
Saying you're not X does not negate that everything you say after that is, in fact, X.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 9, 2016 23:03:18 GMT -5
I have not read the other thread so it seems unfair to expect me to know what was said in that thread. It is also unfair to say that I am defending him. I think I made it clear that I was not defending him. I only know about this case because my daughter came home last night talking about the "swimmer at the college here in NC that followed the girl as she was leaving the library on campus, attacked her and raped her for twenty minutes and that it was caught on videotape but the judge still only gave him six months in prison." She had been talking to her friend who had apparently been playing "telephone" and didn't have the facts straight on this story. I told her it happened in CA and not in NC, so I read the story I found about it because I knew her story sounded really bizarre. I did not do exhaustive research on it.
As for what can we do to keep our men and boys from raping, that is a huge question. Violent rapists who stalk women and rape them, I don't think we can stop that. When it comes to consent, then I guess we need to teach our boys to get a signed contract before they have sex with anyone. I think that in some of these situations, the guy is just as drunk as the girl and he doesn't know what he is doing either. I think the best thing we can do in these situations is to teach the guys not to get drunk so that they are completely aware of what they are doing.
I left the girls completely out of this post so I hope that makes everyone happy.
More than 80 percent of sexual assaults are done by someone the women knows. 80 percent!!!! It's not some stranger stalking an alley - it's the girls friend that she hangs out with. The guy from science she was in a study group with. Etc etc. These guys KNOW the girl and yet they still rape them. How is all rape not violent? Inserting something into another person's body against their will is not violent? Tearing and abrasions is not violent? And against a persons will who either says no, is unconscious, or drugged is absolutely an issue that I do not think anybody is arguing here. The question is what about those who are consenting, are fully awake, but have also been drinking? Is it right for that to also be considered rape?
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 9, 2016 23:04:10 GMT -5
Yet, without fail, any thread that tries to discuss what to teach boys to prevent rape immediately goes to women having to prevent rape. And the 9th post is immediate. A male could become just as much as a victim from drinking too much. Yet I don't see anyone saying how we need to tell boys not to drink to much to protect themselves. And that's nice that you think you have absolute control over how much alcohol you put in your body. Like it's impossible for someone to keep topping off your cup without you knowing. Or someone telling you it's just a vodka punch but in reality it's made with everclear. Telling someone to not do X to keep from being a victim is the same as telling them that if you do X and you're a victim well you asked for it. But there's a whole other thread that's discussing this that you can go and talk about how women can "prevent" rape over there No, it is not. Telling someone how to help protect themselves is not telling them that they asked for it. I graduated from college over 30 years ago and way back then, we were taught to not let someone top off our drinks, to not take a drink someone offered us, and to never put our drinks down.
You don't get to tell me where I can post.
Fine, post wherever the hell you want. And I vehemently disagree. Telling people to protect yourself by doing X implies that if you do X then you can protect yourself. So not doing X means you're not protecting yourself. And if you're not protecting yourself, well then whose fault is it? And if you say that it's not their fault, then why bring "protecting yourself" into it. Either it protects you from things or it doesn't. So which is it?
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 9, 2016 23:06:14 GMT -5
More than 80 percent of sexual assaults are done by someone the women knows. 80 percent!!!! It's not some stranger stalking an alley - it's the girls friend that she hangs out with. The guy from science she was in a study group with. Etc etc. These guys KNOW the girl and yet they still rape them. How is all rape not violent? Inserting something into another person's body against their will is not violent? Tearing and abrasions is not violent? And against a persons will who either says no, is unconscious, or drugged is absolutely an issue that I do not think anybody is arguing here. The question is what about those who are consenting, are fully awake, but have also been drinking? Is it right for that to also be considered rape? Actually, you were arguing when and how she became unconscious. And how because she doesn't remember she consented because that's what he said. The question of this thread is how educate boys about rape in a way to keep it from happening.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 9, 2016 23:12:07 GMT -5
No, it is not. Telling someone how to help protect themselves is not telling them that they asked for it. I graduated from college over 30 years ago and way back then, we were taught to not let someone top off our drinks, to not take a drink someone offered us, and to never put our drinks down.
You don't get to tell me where I can post.
Fine, post wherever the hell you want. And I vehemently disagree. Telling people to protect yourself by doing X implies that if you do X then you can protect yourself. So not doing X means you're not protecting yourself. And if you're not protecting yourself, well then whose fault is it? And if you say that it's not their fault, then why bring "protecting yourself" into it. Either it protects you from things or it doesn't. So which is it? All it means is that it can help prevent it from happening or lessen the chances of it. If you tell somebody to look both ways before crossing the street will help prevent you from getting hit by a car, it doesn't mean it will protect you from the crazy drunk driver or the driver on a rampage, but that overall it will help keep you safer. I think that is all Dangny was trying to say, that it is not enough to just "teach" men, but we also need to teach our daughters to "look both ways when they are crossing the street" too. It's not blaming the people who get hit by cars saying "they should have looked both ways first," it's saying we need to teach them both to help limit them both from being in those situations.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 9, 2016 23:13:39 GMT -5
And against a persons will who either says no, is unconscious, or drugged is absolutely an issue that I do not think anybody is arguing here. The question is what about those who are consenting, are fully awake, but have also been drinking? Is it right for that to also be considered rape? Actually, you were arguing when and how she became unconscious. And how because she doesn't remember she consented because that's what he said. The question of this thread is how educate boys about rape in a way to keep it from happening. Actually that was a different poster who was talking about that case, but thanks for playing and ignoring my question.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 23:13:46 GMT -5
How can we educate them though, without a clear definition of what rape is in all circumstances, including the one which PI outlined. Its about what do i say to my son to make sure he is not a perpetrator of rape in the case of two consenting, fully awake, people who have both had something intoxicating... And why is this the one case where i can't do what you've suggested in the other thread and teach both of my children the same thing?
I've already decided that I need to take Archie's posts to heart and start making sex talks even less embarrasing in this house than they are... and get them to the point where they aren't afraid to discuss sex in any situation so that hopefully that translates into when i tell them they need to definitely be having active conversations with someone who they are considering being intimate with... at all stages of the process. Like the example someone gave to constantly asking if it was still yes, and reminding them they had the right to say no.
But since that is not enough to protect my son in the case outlined above, i'm guessing that isn't even enough and am wondering how much further i need to go...
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 9, 2016 23:14:29 GMT -5
Yet, without fail, any thread that tries to discuss what to teach boys to prevent rape immediately goes to women having to prevent rape. And the 9th post is immediate. A male could become just as much as a victim from drinking too much. Yet I don't see anyone saying how we need to tell boys not to drink to much to protect themselves. And that's nice that you think you have absolute control over how much alcohol you put in your body. Like it's impossible for someone to keep topping off your cup without you knowing. Or someone telling you it's just a vodka punch but in reality it's made with everclear. Telling someone to not do X to keep from being a victim is the same as telling them that if you do X and you're a victim well you asked for it. But there's a whole other thread that's discussing this that you can go and talk about how women can "prevent" rape over there No, it is not. Telling someone how to help protect themselves is not telling them that they asked for it. I graduated from college over 30 years ago and way back then, we were taught to not let someone top off our drinks, to not take a drink someone offered us, and to never put our drinks down.
You don't get to tell me where I can post.
This horse has been beaten to death. The point of this thread was to try to separate the issue. If if you do any sort of reading about this subject, it is apparent from the rapist's father's viewpoint that 20 minutes of action should not negate his 20 years. Think about this for a minute. His 3 felony convicted son's actions were perceived as 20 minutes if action by his dad. The rapist was raised to believe that this is ok! You don't see how this is pertinent? If you are raised to believe that consent is not important, then that silly little matter about raping an unconscious woman behind a dumpster shouldn't matter. After all, she shouldn't have gotten drunk or drugged (I suspect she was probably drugged too), so she couldn't say 'no' so why not have at it? There is a moral disconnect in this family somewhere.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 9, 2016 23:18:46 GMT -5
Fine, post wherever the hell you want. And I vehemently disagree. Telling people to protect yourself by doing X implies that if you do X then you can protect yourself. So not doing X means you're not protecting yourself. And if you're not protecting yourself, well then whose fault is it? And if you say that it's not their fault, then why bring "protecting yourself" into it. Either it protects you from things or it doesn't. So which is it? All it means is that it can help prevent it from happening or lessen the chances of it. If you tell somebody to look both ways before crossing the street will help prevent you from getting hit by a car, it doesn't mean it will protect you from the crazy drunk driver or the driver on a rampage, but that overall it will help keep you safer. I think that is all Dangny was trying to say, that it is not enough to just "teach" men, but we also need to teach our daughters to "look both ways when they are crossing the street" too. It's not blaming the people who get hit by cars saying "they should have looked both ways first," it's saying we need to teach them both to help limit them both from being in those situations. Ugh! Having the exact same conversation is stressing me the fuck out. You know what the difference is? When a pedestrian gets his by a car the first question isn't did you look both ways. They don't dissect whether the person was wearing bright enough clothing. They don't ask whether the person was asking to get hit by the car. No, what they do is create MADD. They put the fucker in jail for hitting a pedestrian - WITHOUT digging into the pedestrians past walking experience and if she always looked both ways and whether she wanted her bf to drive a car that night or not. The news talks about a drunk driver that hit someone not a star athlete that's in jail because he had sex with someone that left her bf a voicemail that she wanted to reward him so she was out for sex with anyone.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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With a little faith, we can move a mountain; with a little help, we can change the world.
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 9, 2016 23:37:17 GMT -5
How can we educate them though, without a clear definition of what rape is in all circumstances, including the one which PI outlined. Its about what do i say to my son to make sure he is not a perpetrator of rape in the case of two consenting, fully awake, people who have both had something intoxicating... And why is this the one case where i can't do what you've suggested in the other thread and teach both of my children the same thing? I've already decided that I need to take Archie's posts to heart and start making sex talks even less embarrasing in this house than they are... and get them to the point where they aren't afraid to discuss sex in any situation so that hopefully that translates into when i tell them they need to definitely be having active conversations with someone who they are considering being intimate with... at all stages of the process. Like the example someone gave to constantly asking if it was still yes, and reminding them they had the right to say no. But since that is not enough to protect my son in the case outlined above, i'm guessing that isn't even enough and am wondering how much further i need to go... I think there is also a question, such as the one posted where the girl was the aggressor and the guy hadn't had anything to drink. There is a legal limit for drinking and driving, but are we saying that even if the person has one drink, they are not able to give consent if the other person was completely sober? At what level is "too drunk?" What if both are blackout drunk, and can't remember the previous night, does the guy automatically get charged with rape? They are not easy questions, but we do need to discuss them if we want to have a real discussion about this topic. Your one example where the counsellor told you that you could press rape charges, I'm guessing especially in today's climate, that lots of people may be getting that same advice...what happens if more of them decide to press charges instead of chalking it up to a night of bad decisions that they agreed to at the time?
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 9, 2016 23:46:55 GMT -5
I think guys being falsely accused is horrible. Not just for the guy, which it is utterly horrible for him. But also for women because it becomes just another thing for rapists to use to say that this women wasn't raped.
But you know what I can't help thinking every time a conversation about how to teach boys about rape and keep them from raping turns to women falsely accusing men of rape? (Which, to be clear, is along the same line of it immediately jumping to what women need to protect themsleves. It's immediately changing the conversation from men's actions to women's actions.) All the anti-vaxxers. One person gets seriously injured by a vaccine and suddenly they're calling for all vaccines to stop. One person thinks that autism is connected to vaccines and suddenly any kid who has autism it's looked at whether the vaccine had anything to do with it. Regardless of studies that say vaccines have nothing to do with autism. Regardless of studies that say it's a really small percent that are injured by vaccines suddenly every vaccine is questioned and maybe they're all bad.
Maybe I'm wrong to see some corollary in the instances, but I do.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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With a little faith, we can move a mountain; with a little help, we can change the world.
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jun 9, 2016 23:55:06 GMT -5
Yup. That was my point in the other thread. It can never be just about what people can do for boys and teaching them not to rape without bringing in a girl and what she can do to prevent it. They'll always bring in "Well if it's this situation it can be prevented," as if someone getting drunk is the only way a girl gets raped. It's actually more common that a girl gets raped by someone she knows and trusts then a stranger... I was watching Dr. Phil with my mom and they had statistics and such. It was sickening. A step-father was raping his spouses children... But instead of talking about what we can say to boys, or talk about consent, someone always has to barge in with "WAIT A MINUTE... Just a second what about what a girl can do to prevent it.." Then it turns into a conversation that practically makes the victim sound at blame. Why can a conversation about what to stop men from raping woman ever stick to that without throwing in some blame card to a woman? Some how someone always has to...no matter the situation find a way to turn it around and say it was some how preventable even if it hadn't been. To be fair, it also probably never just be about what girls can do to protect themselves either.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 9, 2016 23:59:56 GMT -5
Yup. That was my point in the other thread. It can never be just about what people can do for boys and teaching them not to rape without bringing in a girl and what she can do to prevent it. They'll always bring in "Well if it's this situation it can be prevented," as if someone getting drunk is the only way a girl gets raped. It's actually more common that a girl gets raped by someone she knows and trusts then a stranger... I was watching Dr. Phil with my mom and they had statistics and such. It was sickening. A step-father was raping his spouses children... But instead of talking about what we can say to boys, or talk about consent, someone always has to barge in with "WAIT A MINUTE... Just a second what about what a girl can do to prevent it.." Then it turns into a conversation that practically makes the victim sound at blame. Why can a conversation about what to stop men from raping woman ever stick to that without throwing in some blame card to a woman? Some how someone always has to...no matter the situation find a way to turn it around and say it was some how preventable even if it hadn't been. To be fair, it also probably never just be about what girls can do to protect themselves either. Were you ever told what to do to protect yourself from rape? Were you ever taught the nuances of rape and about consent?
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DagnyT
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Post by DagnyT on Jun 10, 2016 0:16:54 GMT -5
I have not read the other thread so it seems unfair to expect me to know what was said in that thread. It is also unfair to say that I am defending him. I think I made it clear that I was not defending him. I only know about this case because my daughter came home last night talking about the "swimmer at the college here in NC that followed the girl as she was leaving the library on campus, attacked her and raped her for twenty minutes and that it was caught on videotape but the judge still only gave him six months in prison." She had been talking to her friend who had apparently been playing "telephone" and didn't have the facts straight on this story. I told her it happened in CA and not in NC, so I read the story I found about it because I knew her story sounded really bizarre. I did not do exhaustive research on it.
As for what can we do to keep our men and boys from raping, that is a huge question. Violent rapists who stalk women and rape them, I don't think we can stop that. When it comes to consent, then I guess we need to teach our boys to get a signed contract before they have sex with anyone. I think that in some of these situations, the guy is just as drunk as the girl and he doesn't know what he is doing either. I think the best thing we can do in these situations is to teach the guys not to get drunk so that they are completely aware of what they are doing.
I left the girls completely out of this post so I hope that makes everyone happy.
More than 80 percent of sexual assaults are done by someone the women knows. 80 percent!!!! It's not some stranger stalking an alley - it's the girls friend that she hangs out with. The guy from science she was in a study group with. Etc etc. These guys KNOW the girl and yet they still rape them. How is all rape not violent? Inserting something into another person's body against their will is not violent? Tearing and abrasions is not violent? I did not say that all rapes are not violent. I was just using the word violent in this instance to refer to the "stalking the alley" rapes. Let's just leave it at this. If you don't want to teach the girls and women in your social circle ways to protect themselves, and yes, possibly prevent themselves from being sexually assaulted, raped, or attacked because this is somehow "blaming the victim" then by all means, you are welcome to do that. I will teach mine that they can't control what some guy might try to do to them, therefore, it is beneficial to them to be aware of how much alcohol they are putting in their body, not to accept a drink from someone, not to let someone top their drink off, and not to set their drink down because this will help them to not fall victim to a predator or a drunken college coed. I will also teach the boys and men in my social circle to respect women, to know how much alcohol they put in their body, to not accept a drink from someone else, to not let someone top off their drink, and to not set their drink down because if they drink too much and therefore are probably not acting or thinking rationally that they might do something that they would never do if they weren't drunk, so don't get drunk where you might do something really stupid and get your ass accused of rape whether it is a legitimate accusation or not.
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