ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 9, 2016 14:03:12 GMT -5
On what are we basing the assumption that rapists and would-be rapists don't understand consent? As the "tea" video points out, it's a simple concept. It's also a topic that any K-12 student (i.e. everybody) will be exposed to multiple times. Why not entertain the more straightforward possibility: that these individuals are perfectly aware of the rules of consent, but don't care enough to abide by them? That seems like the most reasonable explanation for why the problem has reached epidemic proportions. But as the tea video also points out, it is easy to talk to someone about tea. It is not easy to talk to someone about sex. Even someone who are about to have sex with, have been having sex with, are currently having sex with. Our prudishness gets in the way of those open conversations.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 9, 2016 14:15:00 GMT -5
The fact that 86 percent of college men said they wouldn't rape a woman but only about 60 percent said they wouldn't use force to get sex?
The alternative (that everyone understands consent and the ones who rape just don't care) paints a pretty scary picture of our society, given the rape stats out there.
I would like to hope (and I think the studies bear out) that there is a sizable cohort who knows that jumping out at a stranger and raping her at knifepoint is bad but thinks that continuing to have sex with someone who has passed out from intoxication (etc.) is OK.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 9, 2016 14:19:15 GMT -5
On what are we basing the assumption that rapists and would-be rapists don't understand consent? As the "tea" video points out, it's a simple concept. It's also a topic that any K-12 student (i.e. everybody) will be exposed to multiple times. Why not entertain the more straightforward possibility: that these individuals are perfectly aware of the rules of consent, but don't care enough to abide by them? That seems like the most reasonable explanation for why the problem has reached epidemic proportions. But as the tea video also points out, it is easy to talk to someone about tea. It is not easy to talk to someone about sex. Even someone who are about to have sex with, have been having sex with, are currently having sex with. Our prudishness gets in the way of those open conversations. So the theory is that men are forcing themselves on women because it's not easy to talk about sex, including asking permission? Like how it's awkward to tell a woman about that piece of broccoli stuck between her teeth, so you just go at her with tweezers and explain yourself later? I have much simpler theory: Man wants sex. Man considers sex casual, harmless, and an entitlement (given suitable investment of time and money), despite being taught otherwise for more than a decade by authorities and educators. Man has sex with no consideration for consent. If non-consensual sex is reported, man claims consent was given or that he wasn't aware of the rules of consent, etc., as needed to get the problem to go away. Man is happy.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 9, 2016 14:22:50 GMT -5
Honestly, we need to do a two-pronged attack on boys and girls: 1. Explain what consent is 2. Continue to teach and guide them regarding respect for other people's bodies and personal space 3. Teach them how to stay safe
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 9, 2016 14:23:11 GMT -5
Oops, I guess it's 3-pronged.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 9, 2016 14:26:30 GMT -5
Tell them if they're drunk and have sex with another drunk person and neither can remember it, they might get accused of rape because they're the man. I don't think a lot of young men understand that.
Then explain to them that rape is simply a way of life for some folks. If they choose to make it a way of life for themselves, they may find that their cellmate wishes to help them continue that way of life.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 9, 2016 14:31:57 GMT -5
On what are we basing the assumption that rapists and would-be rapists don't understand consent? As the "tea" video points out, it's a simple concept. It's also a topic that any K-12 student (i.e. everybody) will be exposed to multiple times.Why not entertain the more straightforward possibility: that these individuals are perfectly aware of the rules of consent, but don't care enough to abide by them? That seems like the most reasonable explanation for why the problem has reached epidemic proportions. I live in the deep South, consent never comes up to STUDENTS because they only condone teaching abstinence only. Period. If, as Archie said, the conversation is too awkward for parent and/or child, they might never be exposed to the idea of consent.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 9, 2016 14:32:36 GMT -5
The fact that 86 percent of college men said they wouldn't rape a woman but only about 60 percent said they wouldn't use force to get sex? The alternative (that everyone understands consent and the ones who rape just don't care) paints a pretty scary picture of our society, given the rape stats out there. I would like to hope (and I think the studies bear out) that there is a sizable cohort who knows that jumping out at a stranger and raping her at knifepoint is bad but thinks that continuing to have sex with someone who has passed out from intoxication (etc.) is OK. The statistic is a definition issue. Obviously some of the respondents attach conditions to "rape", such as it being spontaneous, violent, etc. It doesn't mean they don't understand the rules of consent. If the survey asked, "According to Britain's 'Sexual Safety Guide', is using force to obtain sex acceptable behaviour?", I'd bet you that 90%+ of respondents would reply "No.", even if they answered 'Yes' to the force question.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 9, 2016 14:33:54 GMT -5
On what are we basing the assumption that rapists and would-be rapists don't understand consent? As the "tea" video points out, it's a simple concept. It's also a topic that any K-12 student (i.e. everybody) will be exposed to multiple times.Why not entertain the more straightforward possibility: that these individuals are perfectly aware of the rules of consent, but don't care enough to abide by them? That seems like the most reasonable explanation for why the problem has reached epidemic proportions. I live in the deep South, consent never comes up to STUDENTS because they only condone teaching abstinence only. Period. If, as Archie said, the conversation is too awkward for parent and/or child, they might never be exposed to the idea of consent. If that's the case, why is the problem just as bad everywhere else in the western world? Why is it getting worse as time goes on?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 9, 2016 14:34:32 GMT -5
On what are we basing the assumption that rapists and would-be rapists don't understand consent? As the "tea" video points out, it's a simple concept. It's also a topic that any K-12 student (i.e. everybody) will be exposed to multiple times. Why not entertain the more straightforward possibility: that these individuals are perfectly aware of the rules of consent, but don't care enough to abide by them? That seems like the most reasonable explanation for why the problem has reached epidemic proportions. If people are fully aware of what's going on and do it anyways, then there's likely little that can be said to them.
There are probably plenty of things to say to people to avoid the appearance, or the uncertainty of whether a rape occurred (for example, were you roofied or did you just get blackout drunk? symptoms are the same for the most part.)
If these incidents were all happening in sober environments, it would be very clear cut. Given the presence of alcohol (in some cases massive amounts of alcohol), then the distinction between blackout drunk, roofied, unconscious, semi-conscious, and all of that poses a lot of guesswork for all parties about what actually happened in a lot of these instances. It's a tricky spot for both the accuser and the accused when neither can reasonably answer "was there consent?".
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 9, 2016 14:36:05 GMT -5
I live in the deep South, consent never comes up to STUDENTS because they only condone teaching abstinence only. Period. If, as Archie said, the conversation is too awkward for parent and/or child, they might never be exposed to the idea of consent. If that's the case, why is the problem just as bad everywhere else in the western world? I can't speak for the rest of the western world, but your assumption that kids will come across this concept multiple times is the exact opposite of my experience. I assume places a little less stuck on beating the populace with religion through government teach something besides abstinence and there's a chance you could be correct.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 9, 2016 14:36:38 GMT -5
I live in the deep South, consent never comes up to STUDENTS because they only condone teaching abstinence only. Period. If, as Archie said, the conversation is too awkward for parent and/or child, they might never be exposed to the idea of consent. If that's the case, why is the problem just as bad everywhere else in the western world? Why is it getting worse as time goes on? It's getting reported more.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 9, 2016 14:40:03 GMT -5
If that's the case, why is the problem just as bad everywhere else in the western world? Why is it getting worse as time goes on? It's getting reported more. That's just a wild guess. What about the survey results? How do you explain those?
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 9, 2016 14:40:09 GMT -5
I live in the deep South, consent never comes up to STUDENTS because they only condone teaching abstinence only. Period. If, as Archie said, the conversation is too awkward for parent and/or child, they might never be exposed to the idea of consent. If that's the case, why is the problem just as bad everywhere else in the western world? Why is it getting worse as time goes on? because we're talking about it more and it's coming out what a huge problem it actually is.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 9, 2016 14:41:12 GMT -5
It's getting reported more. That's just a wild guess. What about the survey results? How do you explain those? which survey?
ETA: The definition of rape has also evolved. In the mid 80's, the NYS Court of Appeals ruled that you could rape your spouse, until then, a spouse did not have the right to refuse sex. There also used to be a requirement for "earnest resistance" to a rape, which means you better have fought back or it legally wasn't rape. We now also have rape shield laws which does not allow the defense to ask the victim about previous sex partners or other irrelevant details.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 9, 2016 14:46:35 GMT -5
If that's the case, why is the problem just as bad everywhere else in the western world? I can't speak for the rest of the western world, but your assumption that kids will come across this concept multiple times is the exact opposite of my experience. I assume places a little less stuck on beating the populace with religion through government teach something besides abstinence and there's a chance you could be correct. I can't speak for the US deep South, but rape is prevalent in the British Commonwealth nations too, Canada included, and as much fun as it is to blame it all on religion, I can assure you that both boys and girls here are taught the rules of consent in a completely areligious way in public school, many times. Abstinence-only isn't even an afterthought. The problem persists. Your hypothesis fails. If you genuinely care about the problem, look elsewhere for the cause.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 9, 2016 14:48:01 GMT -5
Yay, Virgil shows up and makes this a religious thread!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 9, 2016 14:50:07 GMT -5
If that's the case, why is the problem just as bad everywhere else in the western world? Why is it getting worse as time goes on? because we're talking about it more and it's coming out what a huge problem it actually is. And what percentage of the increase is that responsible for? 25%? 50%? It could be 5% for all we know. That's just a wild guess. What about the survey results? How do you explain those? which survey?
ETA: The definition of rape has also evolved. In the mid 80's, the NYS Court of Appeals ruled that you could rape your spouse, until then, a spouse did not have the right to refuse sex. There also used to be a requirement for "earnest resistance" to a rape, which means you better have fought back or it legally wasn't rape. We now also have rape shield laws which does not allow the defense to ask the victim about previous sex partners or other irrelevant details. The survey results where (apparently) 40% of respondents claim they'd use force in order to get sex.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 9, 2016 14:52:22 GMT -5
because we're talking about it more and it's coming out what a huge problem it actually is. And what percentage of the increase is that responsible for? 25%? 50%? It could be 5% for all we know. which survey?
ETA: The definition of rape has also evolved. In the mid 80's, the NYS Court of Appeals ruled that you could rape your spouse, until then, a spouse did not have the right to refuse sex. There also used to be a requirement for "earnest resistance" to a rape, which means you better have fought back or it legally wasn't rape. We now also have rape shield laws which does not allow the defense to ask the victim about previous sex partners or other irrelevant details. The survey results where (apparently) 40% of respondents claim they'd use force in order to get sex. for all we know, back in 1980 the answer would have been 70%.
I think we've just started asking the question.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 9, 2016 14:52:32 GMT -5
Yay, Virgil shows up and makes this a religious thread! Technically CL did it first... Virgil just responded. Thank you.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 9, 2016 14:53:03 GMT -5
I can't speak for the rest of the western world, but your assumption that kids will come across this concept multiple times is the exact opposite of my experience. I assume places a little less stuck on beating the populace with religion through government teach something besides abstinence and there's a chance you could be correct. I can't speak for the US deep South, but rape is prevalent in the British Commonwealth nations too, Canada included, and as much fun as it is to blame it all on religion, I can assure you that both boys and girls here are taught the rules of consent in a completely areligious way in public school, many times. Abstinence-only isn't even an afterthought. The problem persists. Your hypothesis fails. If you genuinely care about the problem, look elsewhere for the cause. I'm not amused by blaming it all on religion, but when you live in an area that has a judge that can NOT understand WHY he can't have the 10 Commandments in the courthouse, then you have a government beating the populace with religion. (I would LOVE to hear ONE election ad without a church reference around here, just ONE.) And, conversely, a populace that's all too eager to lap it up and run anyone that doesn't agree with them out of the state screaming. (I know people who have moved because they couldn't stand the intolerance of the supposed "religious" in the area.) I didn't say it was the entire cause btw, I said assuming that was not a good idea. If not the first time, then in the clarification for sure.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 9, 2016 14:54:25 GMT -5
Yay, Virgil shows up and makes this a religious thread! Technically CL did it first... Virgil just responded. Technically I did. You're welcome. But it is part of the problem, when the squeamish religious parents won't even let the school have the talk that they won't with their kids because they might get sinful ideas.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 9, 2016 14:57:04 GMT -5
And what percentage of the increase is that responsible for? 25%? 50%? It could be 5% for all we know. The survey results where (apparently) 40% of respondents claim they'd use force in order to get sex. for all we know, back in 1980 the answer would have been 70%.
I think we've just started asking the question. I think you're going to be sorely disappointed with what the statistics look like 10 years from now. But... you have your system, I have mine, right?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 9, 2016 15:00:37 GMT -5
As the father of two teenaged boys (15&18) I can honestly say that I never spoke with them about rape. However, I would be one of the first to condem them if they were responsible. I believe all children learn from their parents, and my boys have learned to respect women, all women at all times by observing the things I say, and the way I treat my wife. If I was constantly saying negative things about women, or sexually degrading them in front of my boys, it wouldn't take long for them to mimic that behavior. So how do we fix the problem? In my mind is start acting like responsible adults and be good role models for your children, teach them what it means to show respect and never take physical advantage of someone (male or female), just because you can. As the mother of two boys, I think the first thing we can do to fix the problem is to talk with our boys about rape. Seriously. Even if you have "good boys" (and I do, too.) As Sroo mentioned, there are two groups of rapists out there - predators and the misinformed/clueless. Don't let your boys fall into the clueless category. I used to think I didn't need to talk to my boys, either, because like you we're respectful at home and they're good kids. But then I read the details of some of the college rape cases and realized some of this is falling into what might be considered a "gray area" for boys who haven't thought about or been educated on certain aspects of consent. One case - the boy was a "good kid" who actually met the girl at a women's rights group volunteering. The boy and girl had previously had a sexual relationship but were no longer in the relationship - just good friends - when the girl texted the boy that she wanted to have sex. The boy turned her down. She persisted and eventually showed up at his apartment. They ended up having sex. She has now accused him of rape because she was drunk and did not have the capacity to consent. He claims he didn't know she was drunk since he wasn't there when she was drinking and that he believed she had not only consented but been the one seeking sex. This is the type of thing that's highly complicated and nuanced and I want to be talking to my boys about before they encounter it. Let's all start talking to our boys about rape and consent. If enough of us do it, it will make a difference. Would any reasonable person expect him to get explicit consent at this point?
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 9, 2016 15:01:13 GMT -5
Technically I did. You're welcome. But it is part of the problem, when the squeamish religious parents won't even let the school have the talk that they won't with their kids because they might get sinful ideas. Hey, how did I get roped into the religious discussion? Yes it could be part of the problem, but it's a red herring if that's all you are focused on. Just like it's a red herring to paint all fraternities as the root cause as someone else did in the other thread. You pointed out I was to blame, you participated. Seriously? You think that's ALL I'm focused on? Just pointing out one more issue in the PILE of issues here. It's one more thing that needs improving upon in the whole education process we've discussed.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 9, 2016 15:02:12 GMT -5
for all we know, back in 1980 the answer would have been 70%.
I think we've just started asking the question. I think you're going to be sorely disappointed with what the statistics look like 10 years from now. But... you have your system, I have mine, right? I have no idea what the stats will look like 10 years from now. I'm hoping by talking about this it will lower the percentage. At least we have a baseline to start with now.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 9, 2016 15:08:21 GMT -5
But as the tea video also points out, it is easy to talk to someone about tea. It is not easy to talk to someone about sex. Even someone who are about to have sex with, have been having sex with, are currently having sex with. Our prudishness gets in the way of those open conversations. So the theory is that men are forcing themselves on women because it's not easy to talk about sex, including asking permission? yes. that is my theory. Man and woman are fooling around. Man decides to try to go further. so he does. Woman is not quite sure but is embarrassed to say anything. Man tries something else. Seems to be working. Woman still not sure by she didn't stop the other thing so now she feels weird about stopping this thing. Man keeps going until sex is over and woman is wondering what the hell just happened. Instead of man and woman being able to say easily and clearly to eachother "do you want to have sex?" It is a hard subject to talk about for a lot of people.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 9, 2016 15:09:01 GMT -5
As the mother of two boys, I think the first thing we can do to fix the problem is to talk with our boys about rape. Seriously. Even if you have "good boys" (and I do, too.) As Sroo mentioned, there are two groups of rapists out there - predators and the misinformed/clueless. Don't let your boys fall into the clueless category. I used to think I didn't need to talk to my boys, either, because like you we're respectful at home and they're good kids. But then I read the details of some of the college rape cases and realized some of this is falling into what might be considered a "gray area" for boys who haven't thought about or been educated on certain aspects of consent. One case - the boy was a "good kid" who actually met the girl at a women's rights group volunteering. The boy and girl had previously had a sexual relationship but were no longer in the relationship - just good friends - when the girl texted the boy that she wanted to have sex. The boy turned her down. She persisted and eventually showed up at his apartment. They ended up having sex. She has now accused him of rape because she was drunk and did not have the capacity to consent. He claims he didn't know she was drunk since he wasn't there when she was drinking and that he believed she had not only consented but been the one seeking sex. This is the type of thing that's highly complicated and nuanced and I want to be talking to my boys about before they encounter it. Let's all start talking to our boys about rape and consent. If enough of us do it, it will make a difference. Would any reasonable person expect him to get explicit consent at this point? No and I think that is part of the problem. He did not set out to intentionally do anything wrong or cause harm. Unfortunately rape is often a "he said/she said" type situation and apparently she claims she can't remember consenting. 20/20 hindsight he should have continued to say no. I doubt most guys are out there thinking "I am going to rape a chick tonight!". I am guessing a lot of them are getting themselves into situations like the above and don't quite know how to handle it.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Jun 9, 2016 15:09:49 GMT -5
Technically I did. You're welcome. But it is part of the problem, when the squeamish religious parents won't even let the school have the talk that they won't with their kids because they might get sinful ideas. Hey, how did I get roped into the religious discussion? Yes it could be part of the problem, but it's a red herring if that's all you are focused on. Just like it's a red herring to paint all fraternities as the root cause as someone else did in the other thread. Abstinence-only education leaves a lot to be desired, and unfortunately this is another area. If you just tell kids: don't do it! Then any sex is "wrong" - to them consentual and coerced sex look the same. Both are bad things. It happens a lot in the more conservative families, as we all saw with the Duggar debacle last year. The other side of this, that I see a lot in circles I've been in, is the issue of marital rape. I have been in church sessions where it's been said that a woman has no right to refuse her husband.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 9, 2016 15:10:23 GMT -5
As the mother of two boys, I think the first thing we can do to fix the problem is to talk with our boys about rape. Seriously. Even if you have "good boys" (and I do, too.) As Sroo mentioned, there are two groups of rapists out there - predators and the misinformed/clueless. Don't let your boys fall into the clueless category. I used to think I didn't need to talk to my boys, either, because like you we're respectful at home and they're good kids. But then I read the details of some of the college rape cases and realized some of this is falling into what might be considered a "gray area" for boys who haven't thought about or been educated on certain aspects of consent. One case - the boy was a "good kid" who actually met the girl at a women's rights group volunteering. The boy and girl had previously had a sexual relationship but were no longer in the relationship - just good friends - when the girl texted the boy that she wanted to have sex. The boy turned her down. She persisted and eventually showed up at his apartment. They ended up having sex. She has now accused him of rape because she was drunk and did not have the capacity to consent. He claims he didn't know she was drunk since he wasn't there when she was drinking and that he believed she had not only consented but been the one seeking sex. This is the type of thing that's highly complicated and nuanced and I want to be talking to my boys about before they encounter it. Let's all start talking to our boys about rape and consent. If enough of us do it, it will make a difference. Would any reasonable person expect him to get explicit consent at this point? That's what makes this a complicated issue. She obviously gave explicit consent... the issue is whether she was too intoxicated to give consent and also whether it was reasonable for the boy to know that she was too intoxicated to give consent.
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