Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 12, 2016 10:46:54 GMT -5
Of course children act childishly. A child doesn't mature overnight. Is it a bad thing? It may be something parents are willing to forbear the child, but generally speaking, the parent's role is to correct, instruct, and discipline in a loving way. No even halfway successful parent starts out with the mantra "Whatever my kids will consent to is right. Whatever they won't consent to is wrong." If they do, they wind up with a slovenly 30-something with no ambition, no accomplishments, and no personality or redeeming qualities to speak of living in the basement (which unfortunately isn't all that uncommon) because he was never forced outside of his comfort zone. Part of being a parent is "I'm right; you're wrong; and you're going to do this whether you want to or not." We can disagree on whether this should pertain to hugging relatives, at least up until the point where it's established that the phobia is intense, persistent, and tolerable, as I qualified earlier. You should be able to explain why you're right and they're wrong as well. "Because I said so" is not sufficient for any child with half a brain. If the child is willing to be reasoned with and there's enough time, certainly.
|
|
tloonya
Junior Associate
What status?
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:22:13 GMT -5
Posts: 8,452
|
Post by tloonya on Jun 12, 2016 17:47:34 GMT -5
You should be able to explain why you're right and they're wrong as well. "Because I said so" is not sufficient for any child with half a brain. If the child is willing to be reasoned with and there's enough time, certainly. Reminds me of a movie where child is grabbing older lady's legs and hysterically crying for that toy! She remains silent. Man is feeling bad and tells the child he will pay for the toy. Boy gets the most expensive toy in the store. Man is paying for it looking to a woman in disquist. She goes...WAHT are you looking at? I see this boy for the first time in my life!!!
Talk about children ability of manipulation...
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 12, 2016 18:04:44 GMT -5
If the child is willing to be reasoned with and there's enough time, certainly. Reminds me of a movie where child is grabbing older lady's legs and hysterically crying for that toy! She remains silent. Man is feeling bad and tells the child he will pay for the toy. Boy gets the most expensive toy in the store. Man is paying for it looking to a woman in disquist. She goes...WAHT are you looking at? I see this boy for the first time in my life!!!
Talk about children ability of manipulation...
Teenagers and adults can be manipulative too. A "player" knows how to get consent. Some are so accomplished they rarely ever fail. Part of the reason I'll do my best to raise my kids the way I was raised.
|
|
tskeeter
Junior Associate
Joined: Mar 20, 2011 19:37:45 GMT -5
Posts: 6,831
|
Post by tskeeter on Jun 12, 2016 23:40:29 GMT -5
If the sex isn't consensual, she clamps down. It's kind of like putting your pride and joy in a paper cutter and slamming down the blade. Then you spend the rest of your life peeing like a girl. Sitting down. Not a true story. Then again, everything that parents say isn't true.
|
|
giramomma
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 11:25:27 GMT -5
Posts: 22,158
|
Post by giramomma on Jun 13, 2016 0:46:34 GMT -5
You should be able to explain why you're right and they're wrong as well. "Because I said so" is not sufficient for any child with half a brain. Because...mom is stubborn to stupidity adult who like to show you her power over you and she has no idea why she is not letting you wash your hands right now but it sure feels good to be superior to at least YOU! Lol I agree to some point. But there is not always possible to explain why not. You don't tell them Santa isn't real (well I did but don't go by me) - so there are things that kids must accept like because mom said so! IMVHO, if you can't explain why something is wrong, then it's really not worth making a thing out of. The only non-negotiable things in my house are safety related: Car seats, helmets on things with wheels. The rest is fairly negotiable. What the hell do I care if my kid says "I don't want to clean the toilet, I want to clean the bath tub instead." The child still is doing their part. One of my kids hates putting silverware on the the table, the other plates..Should I really force them to do what they hate to do, just to try to prove that I have some sort of false control over them? What the hell for? All its' going to do is cause WW3, resulting in a table that I have to set because I had to send the kids to their rooms.
|
|
giramomma
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 11:25:27 GMT -5
Posts: 22,158
|
Post by giramomma on Jun 13, 2016 0:54:42 GMT -5
Part of being a parent is "I'm right; you're wrong; and you're going to do this whether you want to or not." We can disagree on whether this should pertain to hugging relatives, at least up until the point where it's established that the phobia is intense, persistent, and tolerable, as I qualified earlier. And, I'm assuming that your qualification on this, is that at best, it pertains to mentally/emotionally healthy parents.. Mother doesn't always know best.
|
|
bean29
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 22:26:57 GMT -5
Posts: 10,213
|
Post by bean29 on Jun 13, 2016 4:38:55 GMT -5
I think there are. As has been said there is a lot of nuance about consent. For example, you can't gain consent from an intoxicated person. What does that mean in practical application? I haven't seen too many men running around the bars with a breathalyzer making sure that their hookup isn't over the legal limit. Do you think your daughter could judge if a guy she met drinking at a bar was legally able to give consent? Ask her what her criteria would be for judging if the guy was sober enough. Hell I don't think I could do that! We can all identify the drunk off their ass person. The ones to worry about are the true alcoholics. They can hold a hella lot of liquor and still appear sober. If you are talking about my DD she is only 19. She always tells me she doesn't drink, but I still talk to her about not drinking/driving, the effects and consequences of alcohol.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 13, 2016 6:26:13 GMT -5
Part of being a parent is "I'm right; you're wrong; and you're going to do this whether you want to or not." We can disagree on whether this should pertain to hugging relatives, at least up until the point where it's established that the phobia is intense, persistent, and tolerable, as I qualified earlier. And, I'm assuming that your qualification on this, is that at best, it pertains to mentally/emotionally healthy parents.. Mother doesn't always know best. It's safe to say that in a thread about parenting and parental advice, the assumption is that mom and dad are rational and mentally stable. Not all parents qualify, but if mom and dad are nutcases, i) I highly doubt they'll be reading this thread, or any parenting discussion at this level, and ii) when dealing with the irrational or mentally unstable, all bets are off no matter what you say.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 14, 2024 5:17:49 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2016 7:05:20 GMT -5
I recommend that in order to stop anybody from committing rape, a firm punishment should be in place. I consider rape to be the most horrific thing that someone can do to another human being. To that end, I believe that a punishment such as castration- chemical or surgical- should be instituted. If one is found guilty of rape beyond reasonable doubt then castration and then incarceration for the crime. I've read that rape isn't really about sex, it's about power, so I'm not sure castration would stop someone from committing future assaults if they were free. I don't know for myself how the minds of rapists work, but I can kind of see how it's not really about sex. There are a lot of women out there that are willing to have sex with random men, so if a man just wants sex, he can find one of those women, he doesn't *have* to force himself on an unwilling woman. If he can't find one that will give it away, there are still women willingly working in the oldest profession in the world. I guess for the drunk guy making out with a woman who doesn't want to go all the way and he doesn't stop, it could be more about sex (and he's still WRONG), but the guy lurking in the bushes type person, or the person that intentionally sets up a situation to take advantage of someone, I can see how it's not really just about sex. I don't care about castrating them, but I don't think it will fix their mind and take away their urge to try to cause harm.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,622
|
Post by swamp on Jun 13, 2016 8:09:04 GMT -5
If the sex isn't consensual, she clamps down. It's kind of like putting your pride and joy in a paper cutter and slamming down the blade. Then you spend the rest of your life peeing like a girl. Sitting down. I didn't know you were a republican senator!!!
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,622
|
Post by swamp on Jun 13, 2016 8:10:33 GMT -5
And, I'm assuming that your qualification on this, is that at best, it pertains to mentally/emotionally healthy parents.. Mother doesn't always know best. It's safe to say that in a thread about parenting and parental advice, the assumption is that mom and dad are rational and mentally stable. Not all parents qualify, but if mom and dad are nutcases, i) I highly doubt they'll be reading this thread, or any parenting discussion at this level, and ii) when dealing with the irrational or mentally unstable, all bets are off no matter what you say. I wouldn't be too sure of that.................
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Jun 13, 2016 8:13:51 GMT -5
One of the things I've enjoyed the most about this trip is seeing parents that actually parent so their children aren't little terrors that no one wants to be around. Hooray for some parts of the world.
|
|
alabamagal
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 11:30:29 GMT -5
Posts: 8,148
|
Post by alabamagal on Jun 13, 2016 14:12:34 GMT -5
One of the things I've enjoyed the most about this trip is seeing parents that actually parent so their children aren't little terrors that no one wants to be around. Hooray for some parts of the world. Oh, you mean the part of the world where parents make their kids obey! They are letting the kids run around and do what they want and explaining everything and letting the kids hug or not hug relatives based on what they feel like.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,103
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 13, 2016 14:19:16 GMT -5
Well, here we go again - me being on a different planet from everyone else. I don't consider my kids "self-centered, timid, unwise, unconcerned with courtesy, irrational and sheltered" I consider them people who have their own feelings, their own good and bad days, people who are learning about the world, relationships and interactions on a daily basis. I view it as my job to teach them to be kind and courteous and polite, to allow them to discover who they are, what they like and dislike. And as part of that, I think it's important to establish a healthy balance between being kind to others while not ignoring their own comfort level. What is so hard to understand ?? And yes, I do think that those message that we send to children from day one get ingrained in them and shape how they interact with others later. And while I don't think forcing my oldest kid to hug his grandparents when he clearly didn't want will make him a rapist, I do think that it sends a subliminal message that it's OK to use force to physically interact with another person. That is NOT a message I ever want him to get from me. I'm on the same planet. I do not make my kids hug or kiss anyone and they can refuse to do so if asked. There are old people at my MIL's church that like to try to grab/hug my kids. My kids do not know you, you are not entitled to touch my children or try to coax them into letting them touch you. They have a right to their own bodies. I encourage "stranger danger". My kids SHOULD be wary of people they don't know wanting to touch them. Same goes for family. I don't care if we are related if my children don't want physical contact that should be respected. I don't see how I can teach my children how to keep themselves safe if I have brain washed them into believing that every adult who wishes to touch them has to be obeyed. I don't see how I can teach them to respect other people's bodies if they have been taught it's okay to chase someone down, corner them and forcibly give them a hug whether they want one or not. You can be polite and respectful WITHOUT having to allow someone to touch you. If that makes me a bad parent oh well add it to the list, I'll tape another piece of paper to the bottom to make room.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,720
|
Post by midjd on Jun 13, 2016 14:29:59 GMT -5
Perhaps those of us who were raised by the "because I said so, now shut up and get me a beer" sect of Boomers and Gen Xers have come to realize that it isn't necessarily the best way to raise kids and are opting to do something different.
I subscribe to Lena's philosophy. My kid (2.5) is very well-behaved in public, and I've found that actually giving her a reason for why I want her to do/not do something usually stems any meltdowns. But when I witness the "because I said so" style of parenting, it seems to always be someone spanking their kid at Wal-Mart (or hissing at them to shut up) because he or she asked for a toy in the checkout line or some equally terrible offense.
I'm not sure why the assumption is that the "do as I say" kid will grow up to be a productive member of society while the kid who is taught to use logic from a young age will grow up to be a heathen who refuses to hug anyone...
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Jun 13, 2016 14:48:12 GMT -5
No, the kind where parents realize everyone doesn't want to hear their little darling screeching and whining and actually tell their children very firmly to knock it off and back it up with a good swat if needed. Consequently, the kids knock it off. Because their parents are serious and they know it.
|
|
Chocolate Lover
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 15:54:19 GMT -5
Posts: 23,200
|
Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 13, 2016 15:08:59 GMT -5
I mean if a child is refusing to hug someone and they don't normally do that, I'd personally respect it. I'd also wonder why. But if it's something where they go "Don't touch me!" to every single person, or "No, not hugging them" to every single person every day. Yes, I'm going to want to try to change that and figure out if it's just them being shy, or just "I'm too cool for hugs" because I know kids that do that too. As some kids think they're to cool for hugs. But I also know hugs are important in children growing up and I'd be worried if they never let anyone hug them or touch them. As it is IMPORTANT. I can't stress that enough. Not one specific person. Or just one day they don't wanna be hugged. But if it was something happening every day where they never wanted to be hugged...I'd be concerned. I think it's important to have hugs and closeness to people. Not everyone but some people. And if they refused that with every single person I'd need to find out if they're just being brats or if there's an under lying issue. But I personally can't see myself letting my children get away with NEVER hugging anyone every day. FFS, how is not wanting to be manhandled by every random relative going to make a kid cold? If your kid is showing and taking affection from you, the parent, and other relatives you see frequently, then they are fine. I hated, no.....HATED, being touched by other people* as a kid. I still don't like it but I have been forced to learn to deal because the society around me thinks I'm the weird one for not wanting random people to touch me. *Other people = any person, generally an adult, who was not on my "ok" list. Parents, grandparents, an aunt or two...they were ok. Anyone else, stay away. Somewhere in late childhood/early tweens someone laid their hand on my arm while talking to me. Very brief, but those nerves screamed about it for 5 minutes. Sometimes not wanting to be touched is about being more sensitive to it than the average person. Back to page whatever to try to catch up.....
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,103
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 13, 2016 15:14:37 GMT -5
My children hug and kiss me and DH constantly.
I view them being physically affectionate with us quite differently than I do some church old fart trying to get my kid to kiss him on the cheek. I find that creepy and unacceptable. You have no right to insist that my child give you any kind of physical affection whatsoever.
If that makes me rude and my kid "a brat" in their eyes I am totally cool with it. They SHOULD be "a brat" when a stranger is trying to get them to engage in physical action they aren't comfortable with.
I also think they should be "a brat" if people they do know want to touch them and my children do not want to be touched.
I want my children to be able to recognize when they are uncomfortable and to act on it. I never want to put them in a position where they feel that in order to be a "good child" they have to let someone touch them.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Jun 13, 2016 15:18:27 GMT -5
Nobody should be forced to hug/kiss/touch anyone else. That also applies to my kid. If my kid is screaming for a hug or a kiss or whatever, they need to just shut up and deal with it if I don't wanna touch the grubby little things. "You're young and have poor control over your bodily functions, get the hell away from me and go hug your mother!"
|
|
alabamagal
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 11:30:29 GMT -5
Posts: 8,148
|
Post by alabamagal on Jun 13, 2016 15:18:40 GMT -5
It is the "obey" part that many people forget. I am the parent, my child will listen to me. I never had to discipline my kids in public, and rarely at home. I did not have to explain every little request unless I wanted to. Some things may be up for discussion, but I (or my spouse) make the decision.
My youngest was the worst about questioning things. Sometimes he would go on with multiple questions. And yes, I understand it is a cry for attention, but sometimes I don't have the time to answer every single question that you ask. We had a thing called "Question Restriction", if he asked about too many things that is what it would be. He is now a 21 year old college student going to a well respected university, with a fully functioning brain, getting good grades and is a very decent young adult. Every single adult who has interacted with him has thought a lot of him. And he has never raped anyone as far as I know. And my other 2 kids are alsowell behaved, well functioning members of society.
|
|
Kolt!
Well-Known Member
Joined: Jan 31, 2016 17:45:32 GMT -5
Posts: 1,311
|
Post by Kolt! on Jun 13, 2016 15:19:48 GMT -5
I feel like I've said it's okay to not hug everyone. But it is worrisome if a child doesn't even hug their parents, if they refuse to hug anyone at all, and never hug anyone.
Why is it that my posts keep getting taken as a "They need to hug everyone. Every relative" when that's not what I'm saying at all. >.>
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,103
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 13, 2016 15:19:50 GMT -5
You're young and have poor control over your bodily functions, get the hell away from me and go hug your mother!"
Actually it's more "Gah you just ate a popscicle then rolled around on the carpet, go hug your father!"
|
|
Chocolate Lover
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 15:54:19 GMT -5
Posts: 23,200
|
Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 13, 2016 15:44:57 GMT -5
I feel like I've said it's okay to not hug everyone. But it is worrisome if a child doesn't even hug their parents, if they refuse to hug anyone at all, and never hug anyone. Why is it that my posts keep getting taken as a "They need to hug everyone. Every relative" when that's not what I'm saying at all. >.> Because that is what you are saying. That even if your child doesn't want to be hugged, even by you, they should anyway. Their feelings shouldn't matter. If a child wants no touch whatsoever, maybe you might want to explore that medically. My kids have never minded me hugging them, so if they didn't want a hug it was most likely because they were mad. Or had a sunburn or something. ETA: You're saying "kids" like they're older kids "too cool for hugs". We're talking about all ages of kids, very young and the older ones. I don't make my 2 year nephew hug me if he doesn't want to. I won't make him hug me when he's 7 or 17 either.
|
|
Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
|
Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 13, 2016 17:29:43 GMT -5
I always thought the excuse was that little Billy raped a girl because he wasn't hugged enough as a child. We may not be doing 'bleeding heart' right here, guys.
|
|
giramomma
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 11:25:27 GMT -5
Posts: 22,158
|
Post by giramomma on Jun 13, 2016 17:54:58 GMT -5
I want my children to be able to recognize when they are uncomfortable and to act on it. This. It's all about personal boundaries. Why would I teach my kids they are only "good kids" if they allow me (or any adult authority figure) to trounce all over their boundaries with full and complete acceptance when they are completely uncomfortable about it? Boundary stomping is all about asserting one's power over another person. Isn't that part of rape. To violate boundaries in a fashion that makes you more powerful than the other person?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 14, 2024 5:17:49 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2016 19:53:54 GMT -5
It is the "obey" part that many people forget. I am the parent, my child will listen to me. I never had to discipline my kids in public, and rarely at home. I did not have to explain every little request unless I wanted to. Some things may be up for discussion, but I (or my spouse) make the decision. My youngest was the worst about questioning things. Sometimes he would go on with multiple questions. And yes, I understand it is a cry for attention, but sometimes I don't have the time to answer every single question that you ask. We had a thing called "Question Restriction", if he asked about too many things that is what it would be. He is now a 21 year old college student going to a well respected university, with a fully functioning brain, getting good grades and is a very decent young adult. Every single adult who has interacted with him has thought a lot of him. And he has never raped anyone as far as I know. And my other 2 kids are alsowell behaved, well functioning members of society. I'm sorry, I can't tell if you are being serious or not?
|
|
alabamagal
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 11:30:29 GMT -5
Posts: 8,148
|
Post by alabamagal on Jun 13, 2016 21:09:36 GMT -5
It is the "obey" part that many people forget. I am the parent, my child will listen to me. I never had to discipline my kids in public, and rarely at home. I did not have to explain every little request unless I wanted to. Some things may be up for discussion, but I (or my spouse) make the decision. My youngest was the worst about questioning things. Sometimes he would go on with multiple questions. And yes, I understand it is a cry for attention, but sometimes I don't have the time to answer every single question that you ask. We had a thing called "Question Restriction", if he asked about too many things that is what it would be. He is now a 21 year old college student going to a well respected university, with a fully functioning brain, getting good grades and is a very decent young adult. Every single adult who has interacted with him has thought a lot of him. And he has never raped anyone as far as I know. And my other 2 kids are alsowell behaved, well functioning members of society. I'm sorry, I can't tell if you are being serious or not? Yes. I taught my kids to respect their parents. I did not always explain myself or bargain with them or worry that that might be upset. And they turned out pretty well. A coworker showed me a popular video today with a 3 year old arguing with his mom and calling her by her first name ( which is my name). It was funny, but that kid had 0 respect for what his parents told him and I would guess he will be an awful teenager.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 14, 2024 5:17:49 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2016 21:23:56 GMT -5
His asking you questions was something you felt was 'a cry for attention'... And you would restrict his ability to ask you questions?
Just out of curiousity have you ever discussed his parenting views and if he thinks he'll continue with those practices with his own kids?
|
|
alabamagal
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 11:30:29 GMT -5
Posts: 8,148
|
Post by alabamagal on Jun 13, 2016 21:56:51 GMT -5
His asking you questions was something you felt was 'a cry for attention'... And you would restrict his ability to ask you questions? Just out of curiousity have you ever discussed his parenting views and if he thinks he'll continue with those practices with his own kids? Just talked to him about it. He said he remembered it and thought it was when he was being a jerk.
|
|
giramomma
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Feb 3, 2011 11:25:27 GMT -5
Posts: 22,158
|
Post by giramomma on Jun 13, 2016 22:24:24 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I can't tell if you are being serious or not? Yes. I taught my kids to respect their parents. I did not always explain myself or bargain with them or worry that that might be upset. And they turned out pretty well. A coworker showed me a popular video today with a 3 year old arguing with his mom and calling her by her first name ( which is my name). It was funny, but that kid had 0 respect for what his parents told him and I would guess he will be an awful teenager. All of my kids went through the stage, between 2-3 where they thought it was funny to call DH and I by our first names. Eh. It passed. We just chose not to make a big stink out of it. Personally, my experience with authoritarian parenting was not a good one as a minor child, or even an adult child. But, it was also coupled with abuse, so I can't really give unbiased opinion. This list : www.stopitnow.org/ohc-content/behaviors-to-watch-out-for-when-adults-are-with-children sums up what I went through, nicely. The only thing on there my mom didn't do was "seems too good to be true " and "allows to get away with inappropriate behavior" bullet point. Everything else, she pretty much did. And I had to take it with a smile on my face. Because she knew best; she was always right. And, by right of being my parent, she deserved respect. Questioning her would have landed me with more punishment. ( Even questioning that most reasonable people would find to be acceptable) And, really what child (a minor) wants their mom to suddenly stop talking to them, for an undetermined amount of time? I think for everyone, this list is really good illustrating why the concept of boundaries is so important.
|
|