Ideal Middle School

[Deleted]

So, I generally am clear about my distraste for middle schools. As I've said before if people tell me they would love to homeschool but can only for a few years, then middle school is when I would.

I have occasionally thought, when I'm feeling energetic, about possibly opening some kind of alternative school/program when I'm done homeschooling. I've considered like a support program for parents who want to homeschool but still need to work. I've always thought younger grades, but it occurs to me that an alternative middle school might be a bigger need. 

This is is mostly a thought experiment because I'm rarely energetic. But what would you say are the biggest needs in structuring for middle school ages (and what ages do you include? There is some disagreement in my group).

i don't think this age group should be mainly socializing each other. I think I'd make a huge component community service, interning, job shadowing, apprenticing, mentoring both directions, etc. lots of adult involvement. What do you think would be important? 

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

This is a HUGE question, you know.   

Ages:  human development is such a spectrum and some kids need higher levels of intellectual challenge before they are ready for the social challenges of the typical middle school cohort.  I think it would absolutely depend upon the chosen group -- how well will they interact, support, and challenge each other?  I have no experience with a small, select, middle school group, but I have to believe that many of the social issues common to larger middle school settings don't arise in a smaller, cohesive group.  For many kids, the ability to avoid that whole social pecking order will be an enormous relief.  

Structure:  Structure can be useful, but it can also be stultifying.  "Middle school" is the perfect time to offer many opportunities to practice and strengthen executive function and independent learning skills, but not with such a loose hand that kids lose their way in a lesson or on a project.  I think it takes a deft hand, here, and, again, would really depend upon the members of the particular group.

Experiential learning is effective for all learners, so the community service, interning, job shadowing, etc. that you mentioned would be a very valuable piece of the program.  For strict academic work, *I* know that *you* know that multi-sensory, direct, explicit instruction with scaffolding will serve every learner well.  In either approach, finding a student's strengths and exploiting those while matching them toward interests is an often-overlooked goal.  

You should also give some thought to what will come after middle school for the kids.  Do some need to prepare for a more traditional high school setting, or will you prefer to work with kids who will stay in the homeschool environment (with you, or with someone else)?  

I'm sure I'll think of more ideas and questions as I mull this over...

[zibazinski]

Middle school reminds me of Lord of the Flies.

[zibazinski]

Both my kids survived it and it was an academic success but a social horror. Not being able to use the restrooms, walking the halls carefully, being afraid on the bus. It was nice for the kids to finally be on a good academic track after the nonsense of mainstream elementary school but a school located in a bad area is not condusive to a safe learning environment. It's even worse now. 

[MJ2.0]

I hated grade school but I don't remember middle school being this massive hellhole described here.

[zibazinski]

My school was K-8 so a lot of the nonsense that happens now didn't happen. 

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Mar 22, 2016 13:12:20 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I hated grade school but I don't remember middle school being this massive hellhole described here.

Meh.  Middle school isn't automatically a "massive hellhole" nor is it a poor choice for many kids.  In fact, the traditional middle school model works, and works well, for most kids.  

But, like most things in life, there is no "one size fits all" for middle school, hence, Oped's OP and my reply.  

[Tiny]

I have no experience with a small, select, middle school group, but I have to believe that many of the social issues common to larger middle school settings don't arise in a smaller, cohesive group. For many kids, the ability to avoid that whole social pecking order will be an enormous relief.

My experience with going thru GS with the same 28 kids was that if anything a pecking order solidified in 5th/6th grade.  Whatever label you got you were permanently stuck with.  A clique of girls and a clique of boys formed.   Since there was no 'movement' - no new kids, no kids moved away the cliques became rock solid.   There was NO escape or change from year to year in the social structure of the classroom from 6th thru 8th grade.   

It was awful.  There was no escape or respite from the torment.  And the adults all saw it and did nothing.  The advice I got from the Nuns was 'to try harder to get along with my classmates'.   yeah, that was sooo helpful.

[wvugurl26]

I found junior high (7-9) to be better because there were more kids and new to me kids. Also for the first time I got slightly more challenging classes instead of everyone being in the same math, English, etc.

[giramomma]

Mar 22, 2016 10:42:14 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Ages:  human development is such a spectrum and some kids need higher levels of intellectual challenge before they are ready for the social challenges of the typical middle school cohort.  I think it would absolutely depend upon the chosen group -- how well will they interact, support, and challenge each other?  I have no experience with a small, select, middle school group, but I have to believe that many of the social issues common to larger middle school settings don't arise in a smaller, cohesive group.  For many kids, the ability to avoid that whole social pecking order will be an enormous relief.  

My kids go to a k-8 private school.

There are 40-something (45, maybe) kids in DS's grade (6th)

The teachers have absolutely had it with the "mean girl" behavior. Actually, they were complaining about the mean girl behavior by Halloween.
It's also nothing new, having been a problem for at least the past 5 or 6 years.

Unfortunately, the solution the school has proposed is that the kids should pray more at school. Parents aren't on top of how their kids are (mis)using technology, because the pervasive attitude is because the kids go to (an affluent) Catholic school, the kids are immune behave poorly. It's very frustrating. I also think because there's a lot of high powered dual income families, the parents don't really have time to monitor what's going on with their kids. Aside from the mean girl behavior, some 8th grade boys got their school issued ipads confiscated...for I'm assuming downloading porn.


There are 14 boys in my son's grade. It sucks right now. I can tell you he's tired of being with the same kids since kindy and he's looking forward to meeting new kids. My son is also finally understanding that some kids he *thought* were his friends really aren't. Now, I could have told him that years ago, but surprisingly, I kept my mouth shut and just let him figure it out himself. Anyway, it's been a huge blow to him.

My son, who is generally very immune to peer pressure, is starting to feel the weight of being a have-not at our school. We cannot spend 2K on him for Christmas. We cannot buy new gaming systems when they come out. We cannot afford to take 20+ of his friends to movie premieres,  or drive around 100K worth of cars. DS was on a kick for a while, asking to be sent to public school. DS for some reason thinks that only middle class kids attend public school. Like upper middle class, wealthy kids just don't go to public school.

And as bad as some of the kids are, some of the moms parents (moms)  are worse. I'm pretty lucky I've landed in a few volunteer roles that are drama free, one of them being on the athletic board. My hope is that dads would not behave like moms. And, in that regard, I have been correct.

We really don't have many choices: public schools that IMVHO, fail the kids, or private school where affluence rules.

[MJ2.0]

There is also something to be said for exposing kids to that sort of environment because those situations are prevalent well into adulthood. I dealt with the mean girls. Hell, there may have been people who thought I was a mean girl. Guess what? I am STILL encountering mean girls.

[alabamagal]

My kids went to a private school similar to what giramomma describes. Same size but southern baptist. K-5 was on one campus 6-12 on the other. Middle school was just about survival.

My favorite kid quote was when youngest was in 5th grade and was whining about something. The oldest said to him in her best big sister voice ( in 8th grade at the time). "You better toughen up because middle school is where you will get made fun of all the time". It just sounded like that was the main purpose of middle school.

All 3 were pretty busy with athletics all through middle and high school. One of the benefits of a small school. If they were busy less time to get in trouble.

My middle child struggled the most in middle school. He had teachers who expected organization and he was ADD. One time he did his homework but didn't turn it in. He brought a note home, I signed it and then he didn't turn it in and got detention. I literally had to go into the administration and say STOP THIS INSANITY. A benefit of private school is I had more clout since they would lose money if I pulled out all 3 kids. Anyway I told them they were turning an A student into a basket case, and that he was never going to be organized and they needed to work with him rather than sending him to detention. By the end of middle school he was more confident and did well in high school.

[Lizard Queen]

My Catholic private school was hell in 6th grade. These stories make me glad I switched to the public school in 7th.

[thyme4change]

Public speaking and drama.  As a non-thespian, I have always thought that drama classes should be required for all kids.  It teaches you how to control your emotions, and act in a way that maybe isn't the mood you are in.  There are times in every person's life when they have to act their way through something, without giving away what they are really thinking.  Getting kids right in that pre-teen age to start methods to control their emotion gives them some skills for those awesome teenaged years.  

My daughter's school does amazing presentations, and I notice it changed her whole demeanor when handling herself.  I have watched her have conversations with strangers, and it is amazing.  My son (at a different school) has always been friendly, but compared to her, he mumbles and forgets to look at them, and sometimes he starts answers assuming the person he is talking to has a piece of knowledge that they do not.  I just don't think he ever thinks through who he is talking to and what they are really answering.  Maybe it is just personality - but it seems that the kid that wouldn't speak to strangers as a child, but got the presentation experience is amazing at this, and the kid who was always great at conversation but didn't get the experience is not - seems suspicious.  

Those are my two - speaking as the mother of two middle-schoolers, who doesn't have a conceptual problem with our current schooling methods, so I am coming from a totally different place.  

[thyme4change]

Mar 22, 2016 10:42:14 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

 I have no experience with a small, select, middle school group, but I have to believe that many of the social issues common to larger middle school settings don't arise in a smaller, cohesive group.  For many kids, the ability to avoid that whole social pecking order will be an enormous relief.  

As an adult I use the rule "Are there going to be more than 2 people involved?"  If the answer is yes, there are politics.  Yes, some are worse than others - but I don't believe you can avoid the whole social pecking order thing completely.  I am 47 and I still find myself in a group of people where someone is moving the pieces around, and the social pecking order is being set.  It works differently as an adult - but it is there.  Even in marriages and families, there are social dynamics between the parties that can become nasty.  How bad it gets is really a matter of who is involved?  If you have several fire starters, there will be fire.

[giramomma]

Mar 22, 2016 19:08:04 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

There is also something to be said for exposing kids to that sort of environment because those situations are prevalent well into adulthood. I dealt with the mean girls. Hell, there may have been people who thought I was a mean girl. Guess what? I am STILL encountering mean girls.

I told DS that. I was like, dude, why do you think I'm not room mom anymore? Why do you think I'm volunteering where I am. DS was all like "Oh come ON mom, adults know better than to act like that." Then I started sharing my experiences with him...and then he was like.."ohh, you weren't fibbing."

Apparently, when the kids were reflecting/praying in class on other kids' behavior, DS shared with his classmates that you are going to get singled out/picked on/what have you your whole life and you need to figure out a way to deal. His teacher made a big deal of his statement, telling the class how blessed they were to have my son in their class.

I was just all like .

[Deleted]

I'm ok with mean girls. Cause I know who the hell I am and how far below actually registering in the meangful scale to my life they are.. Not necessarily so for people just learning who they are, in a compulsory environment with few options...

[billisonboard]

In working with groups, I have learned that maturity is subtlety. Whether it is a group of adults or fifth graders they hit each other. Fifth graders just do it with their fists.

[NoNamePerson]

Lordy me, I will admit that I loved school. Didn't have traumatic experiences to speak of. Went to elementary from 1-6, Junior Hi 7-9 (that's what it was called back in the dark ages) and Hi School 10-12.

But should say that school was an escape for me at the time.

I feel sorry for today's children      Every thing seems to be sooooo hard right down to which pair of shoes to wear for the day.  

[Deleted]

Jr high works for me. 7-12. It's grouping 5-8, 6-8 together that I don't think works well.

[MJ2.0]

I would think 7-12 grouping is pretty bad. You'd
have 12-year-olds with 18-year-olds.

[Deleted]

In most 7-12 I've been in, 7-8 aren't totally integrated. But they also aren't allowed to be 'top dog' ...

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I feel like dealing with assholes as an adult is a lot different than when I was trying to deal with it as a 13 year old.

I have a lot more power/options as an adult in a bad situation than I did as a 13 year old.   

For example if this job were to get toxic enough I can quit and look for another job.  Which is exactly what I did with BT.

I couldn't do that as a 13 year old, they do not allow you to choose your school here you go to whichever school you are zoned for.  My only other option would have been to be sent to the "alternative" school which would have been even worse for someone like me or drop out.

I am not sure how but there needs to be some better way than throwing a bunch of 12-14 year olds together for two years.   

While we are all supposed to be the same, we weren't.  Some were more emotionally closer to still being elementary school kids, some were closer to high school, some were in-between. 

We talk constantly on this board about red shirting preschool/kindergarten age kids because they "aren't mature enough" and the decision to do so is often applauded.  

Yet we're perfectly fine with throwing 12-14 year olds together for two years without a thought.   Where is talk about the emotional differences between a 12 year old vs a 14 year old?

I realize now in the grand scheme of things it wasn't important but at 13 it took every ounce of my energy just to make myself walk to school every morning.

Things got better once I moved into high school and the population of students became much larger.  I was able to find people to be friends with and better melt into the crowd when I chose.

[ArchietheDragon]

My ideal middle school (if I was a student) would be a school filled with teachers like Carly McKinney.  

[yogiii]

I had a hard time in middle school. Maybe that is why I'm cynical and dislike people. Or maybe I'd be that way regardless (probably this one). Oh well it is over now and I think it served its purpose - you can learn something from anything.

[alabamagal]

Mar 22, 2016 20:00:06 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Public speaking and drama.  As a non-thespian, I have always thought that drama classes should be required for all kids.  It teaches you how to control your emotions, and act in a way that maybe isn't the mood you are in.  There are times in every person's life when they have to act their way through something, without giving away what they are really thinking.  Getting kids right in that pre-teen age to start methods to control their emotion gives them some skills for those awesome teenaged years.  

My daughter's school does amazing presentations, and I notice it changed her whole demeanor when handling herself.  I have watched her have conversations with strangers, and it is amazing.  My son (at a different school) has always been friendly, but compared to her, he mumbles and forgets to look at them, and sometimes he starts answers assuming the person he is talking to has a piece of knowledge that they do not.  I just don't think he ever thinks through who he is talking to and what they are really answering.  Maybe it is just personality - but it seems that the kid that wouldn't speak to strangers as a child, but got the presentation experience is amazing at this, and the kid who was always great at conversation but didn't get the experience is not - seems suspicious.  

Those are my two - speaking as the mother of two middle-schoolers, who doesn't have a conceptual problem with our current schooling methods, so I am coming from a totally different place.  

I think drama classes are great for kids. I "encouraged" my son to sign up for drama in middle school (his version to his friends was "Mom made me take it"). At the time his career plans were to be a sports reporter and I told him taking drama would be a good choice. He got a speaking role in several school plays. He continued to stay in drama through 12th grade even though a no longer had to encourage him.

I think being in drama has a lot of the same benefits as sports - work together as a team and keeping kids busy.

My son is now in college and majoring in finance and real estate development. I don't think he would have been a good sports reporter. But I'm still glad he did drama in school.

[souldoubt]

Middle school was just like every other part of K-12, college and adulthood.  There's good days and bad, you've got to do things you don't want to do with people you don't get along with and you've got to put up with aholes at one point or another.  I realize some kids get bullied a lot and I took crap for being a chubby kid so I"m not trying to lessen what some people go through but that's life and the best thing you can do is learn to not be thin skinned.  Sooner or later you realize that the bullies are simply unhappy assholes and most of them they peak in high school while for the rest of us it was just one stepping stone towards something else in life.       

[MJ2.0]

Mar 23, 2016 7:51:54 GMT -5 oped said:

In most 7-12 I've been in, 7-8 aren't totally integrated. But they also aren't allowed to be 'top dog' ...

People create their own hierarchies, no matter their grouping. If that's the only problem you are trying to resolve, I really don't know if you ever will unless you find a way to change human nature.

[Tiny]

Mar 22, 2016 19:08:04 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

There is also something to be said for exposing kids to that sort of environment because those situations are prevalent well into adulthood. I dealt with the mean girls. Hell, there may have been people who thought I was a mean girl. Guess what? I am STILL encountering mean girls.

I do agree with this.   It truly becomes a problem when there is no 'relief' in sight (remember kids live in the "now" - toughing out 2 or 3 years until they graduate and end the torment can seem like an eternity and maybe even hopeless.).    There's also the problem that even if new coping skills are experimented with OR some new behavior is tried to remedy the situation (sometimes it is a two way street and both parties are culpable) there's a good chance the other side WON"T change or the Label you've been given cannot be removed. So, you do try different things to cope - but because it's become a 'pressure cooker' nothing works or helps.  

[MJ2.0]

Mar 23, 2016 8:55:45 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I feel like dealing with assholes as an adult is a lot different than when I was trying to deal with it as a 13 year old.

I have a lot more power/options as an adult in a bad situation than I did as a 13 year old.   

For example if this job were to get toxic enough I can quit and look for another job.  Which is exactly what I did with BT.

I couldn't do that as a 13 year old, they do not allow you to choose your school here you go to whichever school you are zoned for.  My only other option would have been to be sent to the "alternative" school which would have been even worse for someone like me or drop out.

I am not sure how but there needs to be some better way than throwing a bunch of 12-14 year olds together for two years.   

While we are all supposed to be the same, we weren't.  Some were more emotionally closer to still being elementary school kids, some were closer to high school, some were in-between. 

We talk constantly on this board about red shirting preschool/kindergarten age kids because they "aren't mature enough" and the decision to do so is often applauded.  

Yet we're perfectly fine with throwing 12-14 year olds together for two years without a thought.   Where is talk about the emotional differences between a 12 year old vs a 14 year old?

I realize now in the grand scheme of things it wasn't important but at 13 it took every ounce of my energy just to make myself walk to school every morning.

Things got better once I moved into high school and the population of students became much larger.  I was able to find people to be friends with and better melt into the crowd when I chose.

But you got through it... We all did. Sure parts of it sucked (being teased because I was chubby, being teased because I didn't know how to handled myself around my "crushes", being called a lesbian by a small group of boys for zero reason, mean girls), but I also made friends and did theatre and have some good memories. Why are we so afraid for kids to experience the things we did?