billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 23, 2016 9:45:12 GMT -5
Middle school was just like every other part of K-12, college and adulthood. There's good days and bad, you've got to do things you don't want to do with people you don't get along with and you've got to put up with aholes at one point or another. I realize some kids get bullied a lot and I took crap for being a chubby kid so I"m not trying to lessen what some people go through but that's life and the best thing you can do is learn to not be thin skinned. Sooner or later you realize that the bullies are simply unhappy assholes and most of them they peak in high school while for the rest of us it was just one stepping stone towards something else in life. True enough. So how might we structure the school experience to help kids learn this in as positive a way as possible? And this is an issue for both the bullied and the bully. How can we also help the "unhappy assholes".
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Mar 23, 2016 9:50:57 GMT -5
Not exactly sure how to word this but sometimes I think the parents project their fears, hang ups on their kids based on the experience they had. Therefore the child goes into school with preconceived notions about what it will be like.
Not putting this off on everyone and it is a "general" observation. But I have seen this in some parents. And in some way I guess it is normal.
I equate it to my fear of flying. Friends used to freak out that I would put my 4 yr old on a flight to go visit grandmother. I got "but you are afraid of flying" bit. My reply was that I didn't want to project my fear of flying on my son. As he got older he knew I was afraid of flying but we flew together many places - he wasn't afraid and was telling me "OK you can breath now, we are off the ground"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2016 10:01:35 GMT -5
In my experience 5 and 6 graders in an elementary school setting do very well being mentors for younger kids, feeling out their independence and gaining confidence without shooting too fast towards like more sexuslization etc in general.
And 7-8 in a Jr high don't have smaller kids to boss, or too much authority being the youngest. They are also around older examples to mentor and give them goals as they navigate some of the toughest years of development.
This has not been my observation in middle schools.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Mar 23, 2016 10:08:24 GMT -5
About the only suggestion I have is removing problem kids from class. I've been out of high school for 16 years now but I always heard the knock on 'no child left behind' which came out after I graduated is that teachers were stuck teaching to the lowest common denominator while dealing with disruptive kids. I have friends who are teachers who said this was an issue but quite frankly I don't know if it's changed at all. If it hasn't stop treating every kid like they're the same because kids who screw around and disrespect the teachers shouldn't be taking away from those who actually want to learn.
Beyond that there's not much you can do because a lot of it starts at home. How often do you come across parents who will swear that their kid isn't the problem when a teacher/coach/anyone else who deals with their kids on a daily basis says otherwise? I read an article less than a week ago about a motivational speaker who is black who called out kids at a predominantly black school for being disruptive. During the middle of his speech he told them flat out when he goes to other schools the white/latino/asian and so on kids weren't disrespecting him they were listening and asking questions to find out how he became successful (gets paid big money to talk at corporate events). I'm not mentioning this to single out any one group I mention it to point out that disruptive kids negatively impact everyone else in a classroom setting because the teacher gets tired of it and other kids react negatively to it. The difference is the speaker could call kids out for it because he didn't have to be there and his well being and income wasn't tied to the school. He was there trying to motivate kids while doing it for free and wasn't going to sit there and take it which isn't a luxury teachers have.
I think somewhere along the way we became too PC because these days you can't hurt someone else's feelings by telling them to stop acting out, pulling them out of class and so on even though that person may be an asshole who ruins it for everyone else. It's kind of ironic if you think about it because teachers now don't have the tools to deal with those students because of the backlash of being "mean" to them. Beyond that dealing with assholes is a part of life and some amount of bullying, mean girls, etc. is always going to happen at school so the best thing a parent can do is help their child understand it happens, try not to let it bother you and realize that some day this part of your life will be over and it won't matter.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 23, 2016 10:12:56 GMT -5
Middle school was just like every other part of K-12, college and adulthood. There's good days and bad, you've got to do things you don't want to do with people you don't get along with and you've got to put up with aholes at one point or another. I realize some kids get bullied a lot and I took crap for being a chubby kid so I"m not trying to lessen what some people go through but that's life and the best thing you can do is learn to not be thin skinned. Sooner or later you realize that the bullies are simply unhappy assholes and most of them they peak in high school while for the rest of us it was just one stepping stone towards something else in life. Yes, there's the day to day stuff you need to cope with.
Here's an example of something that's difficult to navigate/cope with since it never let up.
In 7th grade (remember 28 kids - small private school) we started having 'gym' once a week (I think there was some sort of State required physical testing that had to be done...) anyway one of the nuns would have us 12 girls do calisthenics. Then we got an actual 'gym teacher' who immediately figured out the 'pecking order'. The "Girl Clique" ALWAYS was on the same team/stood next to each other whatever. The "Girl Clique" would do their best to bump, trip, whatever the other girls. The "Girl Clique" Team ALWAYS won. So, newbie gym teacher tried to even out the teams. Tried the line up and have even numbered kids on one team/odd on the other - the Girl Clique figured this out and started spacing themselves so they'd all be on the same team. Gym teacher tried some other numbering system - and the Girl Clique shut that down quick. The gym teacher made the HUGE mistake of having 2 bottom pecking order girls be "team captain" and had them choose girls (which just made life more miserable for the two 'captains')... which resulted in a team with all "Girl Clique" girls + one "loser girl". The Girl Clique knew how to shut down a class if they didn't get their way (the Nuns would stop everything and "lecture" the 'bad kids' about the good behavior they should be doing... thus effectively wasting 10 to 20 minutes.) The newbie gym teacher tried to 'punish' the leader of Girl Clique by having her sit out... but then her Clique promptly followed her to the sidelines/refused to participate. After a handful of weeks of trying to fight the Girl Clique - the newbie gym teacher gave up and we did calisthenics for 'gym' - well most of the kids did - the Girl Clique did whatever it was they wanted. I think the newbie gym teacher got reprimanded for singling out some of the Girl Clique. Now, project that behavior to the rest of the school day, every day. The Girl Clique was THAT set in stone and that powerful.
(We had a "music" class once a week too - mostly singing songs - no actual imparting of music knowledge. It was a kind of pleasant relief from the usual day of school. One day the Nun decided maybe our class could be a 'choir' -- we all seemed to enjoy "music" class. She decided to have each student step up to the front and sing along with her/piano so they could be assigned a spot in the 'choir' - and yes, the nun chose the lowest girl on the pecking order to be the first one to sing in front of the class. She started out ok (but then the evil eyes/laughter from the Girl Clique) shut her down fast. The nun didn't know what to do - so she called a low on the pecking order boy to sing... he flat out refused. So, it went to another low pecking order girl - who staggered to the front of the class and gasped out a few notes... to laughter/snickers from the Clique. The Nun lost control of the classroom... when she managed to get it back - we sat in silence until the end of the class... the next time we had 'music' class it was tense but we just went back to singing whatever songs the Nun had picked out.)
This was so much more than having to deal with a bully during a specific time frame or when in a specific group - this was an all day walking on eggshells kind of thing.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 23, 2016 10:15:09 GMT -5
I feel like dealing with assholes as an adult is a lot different than when I was trying to deal with it as a 13 year old. I have a lot more power/options as an adult in a bad situation than I did as a 13 year old. For example if this job were to get toxic enough I can quit and look for another job. Which is exactly what I did with BT. I couldn't do that as a 13 year old, they do not allow you to choose your school here you go to whichever school you are zoned for. My only other option would have been to be sent to the "alternative" school which would have been even worse for someone like me or drop out. I am not sure how but there needs to be some better way than throwing a bunch of 12-14 year olds together for two years. While we are all supposed to be the same, we weren't. Some were more emotionally closer to still being elementary school kids, some were closer to high school, some were in-between. We talk constantly on this board about red shirting preschool/kindergarten age kids because they "aren't mature enough" and the decision to do so is often applauded. Yet we're perfectly fine with throwing 12-14 year olds together for two years without a thought. Where is talk about the emotional differences between a 12 year old vs a 14 year old? I realize now in the grand scheme of things it wasn't important but at 13 it took every ounce of my energy just to make myself walk to school every morning. Things got better once I moved into high school and the population of students became much larger. I was able to find people to be friends with and better melt into the crowd when I chose. But you got through it... We all did. Sure parts of it sucked (being teased because I was chubby, being teased because I didn't know how to handled myself around my "crushes", being called a lesbian by a small group of boys for zero reason, mean girls), but I also made friends and did theatre and have some good memories. Why are we so afraid for kids to experience the things we did? I don't think parents are afraid of having their kids experience some 'hardship' in school... I would like to think they are afraid their kid will be subjected to unrelenting hardship and that there won't be any good memories or fun stuff from GS.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 23, 2016 10:19:46 GMT -5
I guess I must be a wussy b/c I don't see how relentless bullying somehow makes you a better person or able to be a more productive adult later on. I am not sure what is so terrible about not wanting my kids to experience the same nastiness that I encountered. I also don't get the idea that my kids must deal with it because I deal with as an adult. As an adult I have lot more power over the situation than a kid does. I do think the system has a lot of room for improvement. The solution other kids chose I know who were bullied was to drop out b/c it was either that, continue to suffer or be forced to go to the alternative school with the problem kids. Those shouldn't be your only options for the kids that get picked on. I haven't been back there in years so I have no idea how much, if anything has changed. I just don't buy into the notion that the only way kids can grow up to be healthy productive adults is to go thru a "Lord of the Flies" type situation for 2 years.
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Mar 23, 2016 10:25:09 GMT -5
Our school district is K-6 in one building and then 7-12 in another building. No middle school. I did it, DH did it in his school district as well. We survived. I don't remember it being that big of a deal.
7th/8th grade lockers/homerooms are grouped together in one part of the building, but you still have to mingle with all the other grades to get to classes around the school. 7th/8th graders had one lunch period, 9th/10th had one, and 11th/12th had another.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 23, 2016 10:30:43 GMT -5
Nowhere did I say relentless bullying is a rite of passage. That requires the student to speak up about it and the parents, teacher, and administrators to get involved. I'm just saying that you're going to get bad eggs no matter how you group kids and that learning to deal with them is a skill that we should all learn.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Mar 23, 2016 15:52:45 GMT -5
I had a good experience in school, but can definitely see how it could be a sucky experience for kids if they feel like they don’t fit in. My kids will all go to the same K-8 school and will basically be in school with the same kids for 8 years, which could be good or bad.
My oldest kid is in 1st grade and I’ve noticed that, even at that page, kids are already not inviting everyone (or all the boys, in my son’s case) to a b-day party. It was my understanding that it was commonplace to do that up until 2nd or 3rd grade. When I used to kids at a young age not getting invited to b-day parties, I thought the parents were just heartless. But when it comes down to it, I can totally see why a kid wouldn’t want to invite the whole class. My son and his group of friends are all nice and play well together. Some of these other kids that have been in his class are just total loose cannons. I guess at a high level it kinda looks sh*tty that 1-2 kids from a class don’t get invited to a party, but in a lot of cases they don’t seem to play well with others. They are already forced to deal with them in school, so why would you want to deal with them outside of school?
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Mar 23, 2016 19:21:26 GMT -5
Our school district is K-6 in one building and then 7-12 in another building. No middle school. I did it, DH did it in his school district as well. We survived. I don't remember it being that big of a deal.
7th/8th grade lockers/homerooms are grouped together in one part of the building, but you still have to mingle with all the other grades to get to classes around the school. 7th/8th graders had one lunch period, 9th/10th had one, and 11th/12th had another.
Oh, and did I mention that our schools only have one elementary and one high school? Ya, unless you move out of the district, you are with the same kids from age 5 until 18.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Mar 23, 2016 20:19:31 GMT -5
Our school district is K-6 in one building and then 7-12 in another building. No middle school. I did it, DH did it in his school district as well. We survived. I don't remember it being that big of a deal.
7th/8th grade lockers/homerooms are grouped together in one part of the building, but you still have to mingle with all the other grades to get to classes around the school. 7th/8th graders had one lunch period, 9th/10th had one, and 11th/12th had another.
Oh, and did I mention that our schools only have one elementary and one high school? Ya, unless you move out of the district, you are with the same kids from age 5 until 18.
We have one ES (pre-K to 4th), one MS (5th to 8th), one HS (9th to 12th). So same kids all the way thru, but lots of mixing of ages thru music ensembles and sports. Our district's kids seem to get along pretty well, in general. Or maybe my kids just instinctively avoided the bully likely zones (chose XC/track rather than football, for example). I think our district just has some oddball norms: the kids just live and breathe music and drama (on stage drama, not teenage drama), so you are a freak if you don't play 3 instruments or want a part in the musical. Normal cliques don't compute.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 24, 2016 8:34:58 GMT -5
I guess our experiences in school color how we view things.
I was not a kid that ever got picked on and to be honest, I was more of an asshole back then because I did pick on those I perceived as "weird" or "different". Looking back it was my own insecurity at play...though I was in with the popular kids, at the end of the day I was a poor kid who didn't look poor because I worked hard and bought my own clothing, etc. Instead of bonding with the poor kids who didn't work to not look poor, I looked down at them for wearing old or out of style clothing. Because I have a very strong personality, the meek ones didn't stand up to me. And let's be honest, most outcasts are meek and quiet because they try to not draw attention to themselves. Or maybe they are outcasts because of their personality? Don't really know.
At the end of the day, I look back on my school years very fondly. I had a lot of great friends and had a complete blast. I also look back with regret because there were probably some great people that I never got to know because I was an immature ass. I wound up connecting with one of my "victims" at my 20th high school reunion. As an adult she has come into her own and is an absolute great person. She is a bigger person that I because we became friends...not sure I could have friended someone that treated me like I treated her.
So having said all of that, bullying is not a new phenomenon. It existed when my parents were in school. It existed when I was in school and it exists now. I don't honestly know how you overcome it. I do think it is part of growing up. I would obviously be very upset if my kid was bullied (my kid isn't an asshole like I was but she has the other aspects of my personality...she is not a kid that will be picked on) but I'm not sure there is much that can be done to stop it.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Mar 24, 2016 8:46:56 GMT -5
My life attitude is that I think everyone is an ass until proven otherwise.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Mar 24, 2016 11:17:30 GMT -5
Our school district is K-6 in one building and then 7-12 in another building. No middle school. I did it, DH did it in his school district as well. We survived. I don't remember it being that big of a deal.
7th/8th grade lockers/homerooms are grouped together in one part of the building, but you still have to mingle with all the other grades to get to classes around the school. 7th/8th graders had one lunch period, 9th/10th had one, and 11th/12th had another.
Oh, and did I mention that our schools only have one elementary and one high school? Ya, unless you move out of the district, you are with the same kids from age 5 until 18.
Our campus was K - 12 until my senior year of HS. They built a new high school then. I hated it because it was one building and our old campus was spread far and wide like milee talked about. We did get an influx of kids in 7th from the feeder elementary schools nearby, but that was it. You were stuck with everyone forever. I don't recall being bullied, or messing with anyone myself. Maybe I did, but I was more of a "leave me alone and let me read" kid than one to give people crap. Unless they started it.
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Mar 24, 2016 11:35:00 GMT -5
Oh, and did I mention that our schools only have one elementary and one high school? Ya, unless you move out of the district, you are with the same kids from age 5 until 18.
Our campus was K - 12 until my senior year of HS. They built a new high school then. I hated it because it was one building and our old campus was spread far and wide like milee talked about. We did get an influx of kids in 7th from the feeder elementary schools nearby, but that was it. You were stuck with everyone forever. I don't recall being bullied, or messing with anyone myself. Maybe I did, but I was more of a "leave me alone and let me read" kid than one to give people crap. Unless they started it. Same here. We all knew each other forever and had relatively small class sizes (I think I graduated with 92 kids). Sure there were different groups that hung out with each other but I don't recall anything like some people talk about.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Mar 24, 2016 11:37:40 GMT -5
My high school was exactly like Mean Girls, or worse. It had 3 middle schools that fed into it but you were still stuck with a lot of people your "whole" life.
DH went to a high school where everyone got a long (according to him anyway). We grew up probably 30 miles from each other. Weird.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Mar 24, 2016 11:44:41 GMT -5
Our campus was K - 12 until my senior year of HS. They built a new high school then. I hated it because it was one building and our old campus was spread far and wide like milee talked about. We did get an influx of kids in 7th from the feeder elementary schools nearby, but that was it. You were stuck with everyone forever. I don't recall being bullied, or messing with anyone myself. Maybe I did, but I was more of a "leave me alone and let me read" kid than one to give people crap. Unless they started it. Same here. We all knew each other forever and had relatively small class sizes (I think I graduated with 92 kids). Sure there were different groups that hung out with each other but I don't recall anything like some people talk about. I think my class was in the 200/300 range. There were a lot of names called at graduation that I'd never heard. Or faces I'd never seen. Most of what I remember about school was looking forward to the end of it so I could quit being around so many people that I wouldn't otherwise willingly be around.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 24, 2016 12:29:50 GMT -5
My high school was exactly like Mean Girls, or worse. It had 3 middle schools that fed into it but you were still stuck with a lot of people your "whole" life.
DH went to a high school where everyone got a long (according to him anyway). We grew up probably 30 miles from each other. Weird. DH says the same thing. He also claims that there was never a fight, never a pregnant teen and nobody ever used drugs. I call BS that his school was that perfect. My guess is that his district was better at hiding it.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Mar 24, 2016 12:43:56 GMT -5
Well DH is a pretty boy, he went to prom all 4 years , I am not surprised everyone got along in his eyes.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 24, 2016 12:47:40 GMT -5
My high school was exactly like Mean Girls, or worse. It had 3 middle schools that fed into it but you were still stuck with a lot of people your "whole" life.
DH went to a high school where everyone got a long (according to him anyway). We grew up probably 30 miles from each other. Weird. DH says the same thing. He also claims that there was never a fight, never a pregnant teen and nobody ever used drugs. I call BS that his school was that perfect. My guess is that his district was better at hiding it. Or he wasn't bullied, in a fight, etc. To me, I only have fond memories of high school. I would tell you that bullying and Mean Girls were not issues at our school. But I wasn't bullied (or picked on since bullying to me implies physical contact), had lots of friends, etc. I bet others from my graduating class have different opinions that I do. I believe our experiences color our memories.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 24, 2016 13:03:19 GMT -5
... I was more of an asshole back then because I did pick on those I perceived as "weird" or "different". ... .... I would tell you that bullying and Mean Girls were not issues at our school. ... FWIW
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 24, 2016 13:07:24 GMT -5
... I was more of an asshole back then because I did pick on those I perceived as "weird" or "different". ... .... I would tell you that bullying and Mean Girls were not issues at our school. ... FWIW That was kind of my point...I wasn't picked on so I have great memories of high school. Im pretty sure others that I went to high school with have much different memories of me. To be clear, it isn't like I picked on everyone. There were a few really out there girls that I did make fun of...and one poor kid (his parents named him Ulysses and he was definitely a future member of LGBT which did not sit well in our coal cracker town) that everyone picked on. He eventually either quit or changed schools.
It wasn't until I was in my 20s and looked back that I realized what an asshole I was. Anyone that knows me IRL knows that I am nothing like the teenager asshole that I was.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 24, 2016 13:22:08 GMT -5
... I bet others from my graduating class have different opinions that I do. I believe our experiences color our memories. Doesn't sound to me like they have a different "opinion". Sounds to me, based on what you have posted, that you both have an accurate image of what took place. The difference is it was fun for you and not fun for them.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 24, 2016 13:25:27 GMT -5
... I bet others from my graduating class have different opinions that I do. I believe our experiences color our memories. Doesn't sound to me like they have a different "opinion". Sounds to me, based on what you have posted, that you both have an accurate image of what took place. The difference is it was fun for you and not fun for them. I had fun in high school. My fun wasn't based on picking on a few kids over the years. I had a lot of friends and a great time. There were some kids that were socially awkward, were picked on and didn't have such a great time. My opinion of high school is that it was a lot of fun. Their opinion of high school was that it was god awful. Same high school, different experiences.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Mar 24, 2016 13:35:56 GMT -5
Part of the reason they may not have had a good time is because there were assholes always annoying them - just saying.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 24, 2016 13:42:33 GMT -5
Doesn't sound to me like they have a different "opinion". Sounds to me, based on what you have posted, that you both have an accurate image of what took place. The difference is it was fun for you and not fun for them. I had fun in high school. My fun wasn't based on picking on a few kids over the years. I had a lot of friends and a great time. There were some kids that were socially awkward, were picked on and didn't have such a great time. My opinion of high school is that it was a lot of fun. Their opinion of high school was that it was god awful. Same high school, different experiences. So is it a good thing to support a place where assholes have fun and those who aren't assholes have a lousy time?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 24, 2016 13:47:13 GMT -5
I had fun in high school. My fun wasn't based on picking on a few kids over the years. I had a lot of friends and a great time. There were some kids that were socially awkward, were picked on and didn't have such a great time. My opinion of high school is that it was a lot of fun. Their opinion of high school was that it was god awful. Same high school, different experiences. So is it a good thing to support a place where assholes have fun and those who aren't assholes have a lousy time? I'm not sure how I was supporting it, other than to say this is how it has always been and I don't know how we change it. I have talked to my daughter since she was itty-bitty about treating others kindly, etc so I hope she is kind to everyone but I have no way of knowing. How do you recommend we change it? There are always going to be those strange kids that just don't fit in. How do we stop other kids from picking on them? I honestly don't have an answer to that.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Mar 24, 2016 13:50:53 GMT -5
I had a great time in highschool. I was a band geek, though, and felt protected by the band geek shield. I am sure there were plenty of kids in my high school who hated it. Probably plenty of band geeks that hated it. But kids who don't have much a group or support probably have it the worst. It is tough to be weird, lonely and different in highschool.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 24, 2016 13:54:18 GMT -5
... I have talked to my daughter since she was itty-bitty about treating others kindly, ... There are always going to be those strange kids that just don't fit in. ... I am thankful that you are talking to your daughter about treating those strange kids kindly, even if they don't fit in (to the box that you have determined is "normal"). I have no doubt she hears you loud and clear.
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