Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 14, 2016 15:14:37 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 15:17:56 GMT -5
Again, I'm not arguing about whether you need to follow their rules. I'm talking about the rules and their intent. I've never said a word about safety requirements. I'm talking about the dress codes you refer to as ridiculous. People on here don't seem to even want me to say they are ridiculous. Let me put it this way. I can legitimately wear a mini skirt into the lab with 4" heels and OSHA would not bat an eye. However, I cannot wear a pair of capris or shorts (even longer than the mini skirt) into the lab. I can wear 4" heels, but I had damn better be sure all my toes/feet are covered. Exactly how safe do you think one would be trying to carry and balance a 20 liter vat of microbes wearing a pair of 4" heels? Exactly how much would you flash your coworkers if you had to climb onto the lab bench to pick grab some supplies in a mini skirt? What are you talking about? I know! And that is what I actually talked about but got accused of defending tube tops and short shorts!
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 14, 2016 15:18:51 GMT -5
Only problem with this is that these laws are phenomenally difficult to prove. Just like those with age/sex discrimination.
|
|
Tiny
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 21:22:34 GMT -5
Posts: 13,488
|
Post by Tiny on Feb 14, 2016 15:18:50 GMT -5
And that company would not meet with my approval. Sorry about that, milee got that one by me. She made another one of her crazy leaps. I should have deleted the second sentence in the quote. So, you don't approve of companies with "dark suit" dress codes? Do you not approve of places like McDonald's, Best Buy, and assorted really nice restaurants that require their employees to wear uniforms?? Or were you just disapproving of companies that opt to not hire the best qualified person because they feel that person isn't a good fit for the job?
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 14, 2016 15:20:07 GMT -5
Let me put it this way. I can legitimately wear a mini skirt into the lab with 4" heels and OSHA would not bat an eye. However, I cannot wear a pair of capris or shorts (even longer than the mini skirt) into the lab. I can wear 4" heels, but I had damn better be sure all my toes/feet are covered. Exactly how safe do you think one would be trying to carry and balance a 20 liter vat of microbes wearing a pair of 4" heels? Exactly how much would you flash your coworkers if you had to climb onto the lab bench to pick grab some supplies in a mini skirt? What are you talking about? I know! And that is what I actually talked about but got accused of defending tube tops and short shorts! Me calling these rules ridiculous and you thinking I put saris and turbans in the same category.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 15:20:57 GMT -5
I don't think either one of those places is going to say squat about not hiring someone with a ridiculous name. Having a certain color skin or religious preference is a whole lot different then what you want to be called. If I am wrong and those 2 links are about names I apologize, but I think you are not quite being straight with me.
|
|
Tiny
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 21:22:34 GMT -5
Posts: 13,488
|
Post by Tiny on Feb 14, 2016 15:21:01 GMT -5
laterbloomer... it's all good. We've got crossed lines of communication and posts.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 15:24:02 GMT -5
Sorry about that, milee got that one by me. She made another one of her crazy leaps. I should have deleted the second sentence in the quote. So, you don't approve of companies with "dark suit" dress codes? Do you not approve of places like McDonald's, Best Buy, and assorted really nice restaurants that require their employees to wear uniforms?? Or were you just disapproving of companies that opt to not hire the best qualified person because they feel that person isn't a good fit for the job? 2 points. 1. McDonalds, Best Buy and the assorted restaurants have their uniforms and dress codes so that the staff that will serve you is easily identifiable for the customer. 2. Yes, I disapprove of companies that opt to not hire the best qualified person because that person has not buckled under enough to follow their rules. Wearing colour does not make a person a bad fit, unless bad fit is code for not subservient enough.
|
|
Tiny
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 21:22:34 GMT -5
Posts: 13,488
|
Post by Tiny on Feb 14, 2016 15:28:23 GMT -5
See my previous post where milee was the one talking about tube tops. I have never said, or even thought, anyone should be wearing tube tops to work or work interviews. However, it is rather puzzling how the mere suggestion of fairness in the hiring process is met with gloom and doom predictions that merely interviewing a qualified Y'Alljealous is a financial disaster for a company. Oh! The perceptions! Unprofessional conduct! Lose of revenue......etc. let us flip this around from the hiring person to the consuming person. If you contacted a company about procuring their goods or services, and was put in touch with sales rep Y'Alljealous Johnson - would that really alter the way you went about considering this purchase? I can't imagine how that would do anything more than result in a mild mental - "oh." regarding a previously-not-encountered name, and then proceeding on to the business at hand. It wouldn't matter what the person's name is. To even decide to procure goods or services from a company I have to have some "good feelings" or expectations about their reliability/trustworthiness/quality - maybe I was referred to them by someone I trust, maybe I see their trucks/employees doing work, maybe I've been 'moved' by their advertisements, maybe I dealt with them years ago. That 'good will' I've extended to the Brand/Compnay transfers to the person I deal with when I call or walk in. The employer consciously CHOSE that person to represent them. If the employer had enough faith/confidence in this person than I, too, will extend some trust (until I get poor service) to that person. When I do get poor service from the employee - I'm not thinking - that person is a loser - I'm thinking that employer/company is a loser. Same goes the other way if I get great service - it's "XYZ company is TERRIFIC!"
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 14, 2016 15:29:58 GMT -5
Only problem with this is that these laws are phenomenally difficult to prove. Just like those with age/sex discrimination. Difficult to prove - yet still illegal. and interestingly - proposed as justifiable and reasonable practice in this thread! Murder is still murder - even if you leave no evidence and don't get caught. I did not justify them, don't put words in my mouth. Hell, my mom was let go due to age discrimination so I have a really good idea as to what's involved in trying to prove this. Employers know this, which is why they still exist. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it exists. Not the same thing.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 14, 2016 15:39:56 GMT -5
I don't think either one of those places is going to say squat about not hiring someone with a ridiculous name. Having a certain color skin or religious preference is a whole lot different then what you want to be called. If I am wrong and those 2 links are about names I apologize, but I think you are not quite being straight with me. You asked me to direct you to those laws, so I directed you to those laws, and I'm the one not being straight with you??
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 15:40:36 GMT -5
Not all prejudice is conscious. People that say they won't discriminate against Y'alljealous might on some level. I think it is a stupid name and there is no way in the world I would go to a surgeon named that for isntance. I like professionalism in professionals. People who are of a serious nature are not going to go thru life with a ridiculous name. They might not change it legally, but they are going to change what they are called and how they introduce themselves.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 15:43:43 GMT -5
I don't think either one of those places is going to say squat about not hiring someone with a ridiculous name. Having a certain color skin or religious preference is a whole lot different then what you want to be called. If I am wrong and those 2 links are about names I apologize, but I think you are not quite being straight with me. You asked me to direct you to those laws, so I directed you to those laws, and I'm the one not being straight with you?? Like I said if I am wrong I apologize. Are you saying those sites have a section on personal names and how that works with job employment? It is literally against the law to discriminate against someone because of a name? I thought there were specific protected classes and laws were limited to those in some respect. I don't much care for ----- but I think she knows what she is talking about when it comes to hiring people with idiotic names that would reflect badly on business.
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 14, 2016 15:45:40 GMT -5
I did not justify them, don't put words in my mouth. Hell, my mom was let go due to age discrimination so I have a really good idea as to what's involved in trying to prove this. Employers know this, which is why they still exist. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it exists. Not the same thing. then what was the point of saying they are difficult to prove? We know the opinions expressed in this thread. Y'Alljealous' resume is going to be tossed, no matter what her qualifications. She is being discriminated against based on non-verified assumptions about her name, her parents, and her upbringing. Because they are. Just because they are on the books does not mean that they are adequate and work. I'd like to know exactly how Y'Alljealous is going to prove that her resume has gotten tossed. Unless she has an inside person in the company who made some sort of disparaging comment while it was done, she will have absolutely no way of proving anything. And quite frankly, her inside person is not likely going to be able to say anything because that would put their job in jeopardy. Hell, how many people here have been looking for jobs and never get a phone call or offer to interview? How do you know that maybe the HR person hates theater (why Drama didn't get a call back) or that Mrs. Carl's name didn't remind the HR of Carl's Burgers - which they got a massive case of food poisoning from?
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 14, 2016 15:46:56 GMT -5
Not all prejudice is conscious. People that say they won't discriminate against Y'alljealous might on some level. I think it is a stupid name and there is no way in the world I would go to a surgeon named that for isntance. I like professionalism in professionals. People who are of a serious nature are not going to go thru life with a ridiculous name. They might not change it legally, but they are going to change what they are called and how they introduce themselves. It doesn't matter if it's conscious or not. If it causes a disparate impact on a protected class, then its against the statute. I'm not surprised that it happens, but i am surprised by the nonchalant attitude from people who are doing it, as knowledgeable as they seem to be about everything else. This is human resource management 101.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 14, 2016 15:49:14 GMT -5
You asked me to direct you to those laws, so I directed you to those laws, and I'm the one not being straight with you?? Like I said if I am wrong I apologize. Are you saying those sites have a section on personal names and how that works with job employment? It is literally against the law to discriminate against someone because of a name? I thought there were specific protected classes and laws were limited to those in some respect. I don't much care for ----- but I think she knows what she is talking about when it comes to hiring people with idiotic names that would reflect badly on business. What stuck out to me is the example of the obviously foreign name, though it could be argued that some of the other names are also mostly representative a certain race, so avoiding them would also have a disparate impact on a protected class.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 16:02:59 GMT -5
Like I said if I am wrong I apologize. Are you saying those sites have a section on personal names and how that works with job employment? It is literally against the law to discriminate against someone because of a name? I thought there were specific protected classes and laws were limited to those in some respect. I don't much care for ----- but I think she knows what she is talking about when it comes to hiring people with idiotic names that would reflect badly on business. What stuck out to me is the example of the obviously foreign name, though it could be argued that some of the other names are also mostly representative a certain race, so avoiding them would also have a disparate impact on a protected class. I don't know what class ----- thinks y'alljealous represents, but it is ------ that is insulting that class by thinking it represents that specific class, unless they mean the dumbass class. It is a stupid name.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 14, 2016 16:08:07 GMT -5
What stuck out to me is the example of the obviously foreign name, though it could be argued that some of the other names are also mostly representative a certain race, so avoiding them would also have a disparate impact on a protected class. I don't know what class ----- thinks y'alljealous represents, but it is ------ that is insulting that class by thinking it represents that specific class, unless they mean the dumbass class. It is a stupid name. really? You don't? There's a whole wiki explaining it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_names
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 16:15:55 GMT -5
So let us take, what I consider the red herring, race out of the picture. Imagine if a judge had not stopped the parents from naming their kid Hitler. Dont you think he might have a problem getting a job at, let's say a Jewish run Deli whose primary customer base is Jewish. Let's say he manages to get hired, do you think that some if not most of the customers would be off put by being served by our friend Hitler? Now let's imagine our buddy Hitler applying for any other job, what is the first thing that comes to mind when you see his resume? Do images of diversity and open mindedness come to mind, or do you wonder how he will get along with your culturally, racially, multi-sexually orientated team? Does it seem likely that Hitler was raised in an environment of inclusion and is going to be open minded? Hussein got elected President...
|
|
WholeLottaNothin
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 15:19:25 GMT -5
Posts: 1,721
|
Post by WholeLottaNothin on Feb 14, 2016 16:22:05 GMT -5
Y'alljealous and Bozo are stupid names and anyone is an adult and goes by one of those names deserves to be discriminated against. They are not cultural names. If I were to meet someone and he had a big round red fake nose on himself I would think he was a dumbass. I would think the same thing if he literally called himself by a clown name. It is 100% choice how you introduce yourself. Maybe when it comes to filiing specific things you need to put your actual name, but at that point you can say you don't know why your parents named you that, but you do not go by that name. I worked with a Charlie, who hated to be called Charles. I lived with a Debbie who hated to be called Debra. People get to choose what they are called. For the record, there is no one actually named Bozo and Y'alljealous is still in daycare. Do you think Misty and Hershey deserve to be discriminated against? I know this is besides the point but she has to be like 13 or 14 now.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 16:22:37 GMT -5
Hussein got elected President... And that answered none of my questions. Sure it did. Saddam Hussein is to Americans as Hitler is to Jewish people.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 16:23:44 GMT -5
For the record, there is no one actually named Bozo and Y'alljealous is still in daycare. Do you think Misty and Hershey deserve to be discriminated against? I know this is besides the point but she has to be like 13 or 14 now. LOL I stand corrected. Bozo is a fairly common Croatian name and Y'Ally is 13 or 14.
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 14, 2016 16:29:44 GMT -5
And that answered none of my questions. Sure it did. Saddam Hussein is to Americans as Hitler is to Jewish people. Uh.....no.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 16:33:07 GMT -5
Sure it did. Saddam Hussein is to Americans as Hitler is to Jewish people. Uh.....no. For the sake of name discrimination yes. I'm not talking about the actual people. And I've said all I'm going to say about Hitler.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 16:44:46 GMT -5
I'm not going into that minefield any further.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 16:55:44 GMT -5
Why because you would have to admit that the people you've been calling discriminatory and racist have a point and that you agree with them? Or that they may have a valid point? Damn...doncha hate it when that happens No, not at all. The opposite actually. This is a no win for me. One answer and you start this bs. The other answer and I'm getting flamed as anti semetic. It seems like a lot to go through because I think Hershey and Sparkle might be qualified for the jobs they got and not have been raised by wolves in the wild.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 17:17:50 GMT -5
Topics like this are why you should let people be free and do what they want. You get a bunch of people who want to tell others what to do and no one knows what is right, because different people have different values and experiences. There is and cannot be some centrally planned solution that would answer all situations, yet the law is going to be enforced across all situations.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Feb 14, 2016 17:35:23 GMT -5
And that answered none of my questions. Sure it did. Saddam Hussein is to Americans as Hitler is to Jewish people. Um, no. Just no.
Edited to add: I see Mich beat me to this reaction.
|
|
Tiny
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 21:22:34 GMT -5
Posts: 13,488
|
Post by Tiny on Feb 14, 2016 17:44:57 GMT -5
And that answered none of my questions. Sure it did. Saddam Hussein is to Americans as Hitler is to Jewish people. Yep, later answer the question - all Hitler Smith needs to do is use a nickname - Hitler Smith shows up on all his official documents but his name tag will say whatever other name he goes by. Because even if his parents forced everyone in hearing distance to call the kid Hitler - someone somewhere shortened it or called him something else. Maybe even he chose something else in HS because he hated being bullied and odd looks and questions in casual settings. After all, isn't that what Obama did? Stopped using his middle name to get elected President? How come people haven't stopped naming their kids John or Jeffrey?? Doesn't that conjure up images of serial killers?? ADDED: That's all sarcasm... and eye rolling.
|
|
Tiny
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 21:22:34 GMT -5
Posts: 13,488
|
Post by Tiny on Feb 14, 2016 17:51:06 GMT -5
Topics like this are why you should let people be free and do what they want. You get a bunch of people who want to tell others what to do and no one knows what is right, because different people have different values and experiences. There is and cannot be some centrally planned solution that would answer all situations, yet the law is going to be enforced across all situations. That never ends well. The laws against discrimination are intended to create a more 'fair' work place.
|
|