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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 13:02:07 GMT -5
LOL No contradiction there. Can people wear turbans or saris? Does everyone have to wear some version of the dark coloured business suit?Ha Haven't seen a turban - but a bunch of years ago I did have a project manager who often wore a sari to the office. She'd dress according to what was on her daily docket - if it was a big meeting with the 'important people' she'd wear a 'power suit' - if she was meeting with and managing the 'team' she'd wear a sari. We've had women wear various versions of 'head coverings' as well.... some of them wore more colorful outfits and scarves - while others stuck with more subdued colors. There are a couple of guys who wear yamaka? (didn't look up the spelling). I know some of the Muslims went to pray each day and that some of the Jews worked around sunrise and sunset times (I'm not caffeinated enough to get this totally right...) These were IT/Accounting people so the time shift in working hours or being away from the office for a short time at predictable times wasn't a big problem. It was always low key. I'm sure there's still people doing this - it's just not something I notice these days.... Alright, your company meets with my approval
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milee
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Post by milee on Feb 14, 2016 13:04:23 GMT -5
We're all about diversity - BUT you need to conform while at work. LOL No contradiction there. Can people wear turbans or saris? Does everyone have to wear some version of the dark coloured business suit? There's a large difference between an employee wearing clothing that's for a religious belief or that's from a different cultural background but still fits the workplace appropriate definitions of most corporations (covers all underwear, doesn't show the belly button, is not sheer, etc) and a person that wears inappropriate clothing for work (too tight, too revealing, has inappropriate language printed on it). The first two are OK, the latter example isn't.
Just like there's a big difference between an employer using a name to racially discriminate versus an employer being wary of a name that's not indicative of a race so much as indicative of parents with incredibly poor judgment.
But to get back to the question, there are still some work settings that require suits and unofficially even require dark suits. Not common, but still out there. You can be the best darn accountant or attorney there is, but show up wearing a hot pink boob tube and you're not getting the job.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 13:10:58 GMT -5
If Sarah Peavey shows up at Bazooka's Strip & Munch to apply for a job she is going to be encouraged to change her name and no one claims discrimination there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 13:27:50 GMT -5
And that company would not meet with my approval.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 13:28:43 GMT -5
If Sarah Peavey shows up at Bazooka's Strip & Munch to apply for a job she is going to be encouraged to change her name and no one claims discrimination there. We'd have to start a whole new thread to list the things wrong with that scenario.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 13:49:36 GMT -5
Bozo ≠ Božo
It is ignorant to think that calling yourself something that immediately brings to mind a clown will not hurt your job prospects. I saw online an "Ashley" whose parents thought it would be cool to spell her name "Ashole". Would you hire someone who's name is constantly going to be mispronounced as "asshole" to be your public face?
If your name is Božo either change it or accept the baggage that comes with it.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 14, 2016 13:59:21 GMT -5
Ok, so you can respond to MY question...
I used to work as a buyer for a corporation. Large purchases had to be ok'd by my supervisor. If I'm buying computer software, do you think I'll get approval buying from the rep named "Sparkle Snowflake", or "Victoria Smith"?
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 14, 2016 14:26:48 GMT -5
Ok, so you can respond to MY question...
I used to work as a buyer for a corporation. Large purchases had to be ok'd by my supervisor. If I'm buying computer software, do you think I'll get approval buying from the rep named "Sparkle Snowflake", or "Victoria Smith"? I'm confused as to how this could possibly impact the purchase? This is a reputable company you want to buy from, and you are assigned to rep Sparkle. Your supervisor sees the new name and what - cancels the order? Your supervisor decides it is better to pay more for the same software from another company because the rep is named John Q. Public? Welcome to corporate America. Where it's more important what the big boss thinks. Image is everything. (I'm just stating the reality I had to deal with. Doesn't mean it's right, or fair. And, you'll notice I don't work there anymore.)
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 14, 2016 14:26:56 GMT -5
And that company would not meet with my approval. Hmmm, it's good to know I should be able to show up at in interview in my PJs (because I got up late because I partied too hard the night before). I'll make sure I spritz really well with cologne (I didn't get a chance to shower) to mask the alcohol/smoke smell I wreak of. Is it acceptable at this interview to ask that a garbage bin be made available in case I have to puke? It's good to know that how I represent myself at an interview isn't the way I would come to work.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 14:27:54 GMT -5
How is Y'alljealous going to show she lost out because of her name? I think people who hire know enough to get by with a bias against stupid names.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 14:29:05 GMT -5
And that company would not meet with my approval. Hmmm, it's good to know I should be able to show up at in interview in my PJs (because I got up late because I partied too hardy the nigh before). I'll make sure I spritz really well with cologne (I didn't get a chance to shower) to mask the alcohol smell I wreak of. Is it acceptable at this interview to ask that a garbage bin be made available in case I have to puke? It's good to know that how I represent myself at an interview isn't the way I would come to work. Ya, that's exactly what I said
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 14, 2016 14:33:42 GMT -5
Ok, so you can respond to MY question...
I used to work as a buyer for a corporation. Large purchases had to be ok'd by my supervisor. If I'm buying computer software, do you think I'll get approval buying from the rep named "Sparkle Snowflake", or "Victoria Smith"? Theoretically, at the corporate level - I would think the company you are buying from has been vetted and that "Sparkle Snowflake" has perhaps been involved with some face to face meetings and/or on conference calls. Sparkle's got credibility - from the company she represents. Why would the name of the salesman effect weather or not your company purchases something? You are buying from a bigger entity... and THAT'S where brand name comes into play.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 14:40:54 GMT -5
I agree completely. How is it that people can think something different from Rukh? She is so smart and has such vast experience, and the morality she exhibits is beyond reproach. How can anyone think different and live with themselves. What a world we live in.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 14, 2016 14:43:05 GMT -5
Hmmm, it's good to know I should be able to show up at in interview in my PJs (because I got up late because I partied too hardy the nigh before). I'll make sure I spritz really well with cologne (I didn't get a chance to shower) to mask the alcohol smell I wreak of. Is it acceptable at this interview to ask that a garbage bin be made available in case I have to puke? It's good to know that how I represent myself at an interview isn't the way I would come to work. Ya, that's exactly what I said But it is... kind of... if I can show up in Pink Boob tube (that was fun to type!) for a job interview to a company I KNOW has a conservative dress code and expect to get hired... I'm living in some alternate reality. Just to make this alittle less about what women wear... if the male candidate showed up in shorts and sandals (with or without white socks) I can't imagine that he'd be expecting to get hired either. OK, maybe if they had a really good verifiable excuse for why they opted to appear at the interview in what they are wearing instead of postponing the interview. An interview is to see how well you'd fit in with the corporate team and it appears you DON"T own clothing that meets the dress code of the employer - why would they consider hiring you? There's a good chance you'll show up the first day of work and be sent home - because you aren't meeting the dress code. If the employer lets you keep working (more than a day or two) like that - I suspect the rest of the employees who are playing by the rules will become restless (and maybe even ugly). That's drama the employer doesn't need at work.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 14, 2016 14:46:16 GMT -5
I have to ask: Are you all trolling me? I honestly can't believe this stuff is for real. I just really can't. People who vet resumes and conduct interviews are trained by the company before they engage in these activities. Fairness in all aspects of the recruitment process is stressed. Companies can and do face litigation is any of the stuff stated here was documented and happening in the recruitment process. Every effort to identify and undo unconscious biases is done. But these outright conscious, and damn proud of it, biases? To be honest... I'm thinking the really awful stuff would most likely happen in a small business - where the business owner without any oversight does all the hiring. When an HR department/person is involved I doubt it happens.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 14, 2016 14:47:16 GMT -5
Hmmm, it's good to know I should be able to show up at in interview in my PJs (because I got up late because I partied too hardy the nigh before). I'll make sure I spritz really well with cologne (I didn't get a chance to shower) to mask the alcohol smell I wreak of. Is it acceptable at this interview to ask that a garbage bin be made available in case I have to puke? It's good to know that how I represent myself at an interview isn't the way I would come to work. Ya, that's exactly what I said I believe you said pink tube top. How much credibility would you give an accountant that showed up to handle your case with the IRS and she arrived falling out of a pink tube top? If I was the person PAYING the accountant, I would be pissed off and the accounting firm would likely be fired. If I was the IRS agent, I would not take anything they said seriously. You may disagree with this, but it is the reality of the business world. Later, don't you dress for your job? Lord knows, I did. While my boss didn't really care what I wore into the lab, OSHA certainly did. And when I was up on the podium presenting our lab's data internationally, I was expected to dress the part. The first time I showed up in a pink tube top to present data would likely be the last time I was going to be allowed to present data.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 14, 2016 14:50:57 GMT -5
Ya, that's exactly what I said But it is... kind of... if I can show up in Pink Boob tube (that was fun to type!) for a job interview to a company I KNOW has a conservative dress code and expect to get hired... I'm living in some alternate reality. Just to make this alittle less about what women wear... if the male candidate showed up in shorts and sandals (with or without white socks) I can't imagine that he'd be expecting to get hired either. OK, maybe if they had a really good verifiable excuse for why they opted to appear at the interview in what they are wearing instead of postponing the interview. An interview is to see how well you'd fit in with the corporate team and it appears you DON"T own clothing that meets the dress code of the employer - why would they consider hiring you? There's a good chance you'll show up the first day of work and be sent home - because you aren't meeting the dress code. If the employer lets you keep working (more than a day or two) like that - I suspect the rest of the employees who are playing by the rules will become restless (and maybe even ugly). That's drama the employer doesn't need at work. This actually happened to my sister. She was working for a large software firm in MN and showed up her first day wearing what she thought was business casual - a pair of khakis and a dressy sweater. Apparently it was not formal enough, and she was sent home. She was mortified.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 14:51:28 GMT -5
Ya, that's exactly what I said But it is... kind of... if I can show up in Pink Boob tube (that was fun to type!) for a job interview to a company I KNOW has a conservative dress code and expect to get hired... I'm living in some alternate reality. Just to make this alittle less about what women wear... if the male candidate showed up in shorts and sandals (with or without white socks) I can't imagine that he'd be expecting to get hired either. OK, maybe if they had a really good verifiable excuse for why they opted to appear at the interview in what they are wearing instead of postponing the interview. An interview is to see how well you'd fit in with the corporate team and it appears you DON"T own clothing that meets the dress code of the employer - why would they consider hiring you? There's a good chance you'll show up the first day of work and be sent home - because you aren't meeting the dress code. If the employer lets you keep working (more than a day or two) like that - I suspect the rest of the employees who are playing by the rules will become restless (and maybe even ugly). That's drama the employer doesn't need at work. That is nowhere close to what I said. There is a lot of space between a dark business suit and tube tops and pj's. I will reiterate again that I agree that this kind of discrimination does happen. My point is that it's purpose is to stop diversity and make sure everyone plays by the rules. The biggest fear of those in charge is that the rules will change on them. They are on top with these rules, they might not be if the rules change. They're biggest accomplishment is convincing everyone else that is trying to get ahead that their rules are proper and good and convince them to perpetuate the system. I'm not willing to say that name discrimination and dark suit dress codes make sense and are designed for any purpose but to control the minions.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 14, 2016 14:52:40 GMT -5
I have to ask: Are you all trolling me? I honestly can't believe this stuff is for real. I just really can't. People who vet resumes and conduct interviews are trained by the company before they engage in these activities. Fairness in all aspects of the recruitment process is stressed. Companies can and do face litigation is any of the stuff stated here was documented and happening in the recruitment process. Every effort to identify and undo unconscious biases is done. But these outright conscious, and damn proud of it, biases? To be honest... I'm thinking the really awful stuff would most likely happen in a small business - where the business owner without any oversight does all the hiring. When an HR department/person is involved I doubt it happens. I'm confident that "Sparkle", "Y'Alljealous" and "Dahomey" are employable - provided their resume (or schooling/references) are solid. I'm sure people with odd names (or hard to pronounce names) are aware that they have a difficult name and hopefully they have found a positive way to cope.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 14:53:00 GMT -5
Ya, that's exactly what I said I believe you said pink tube top. How much credibility would you give an accountant that showed up to handle your case with the IRS and she arrived falling out of a pink tube top? If I was the person PAYING the accountant, I would be pissed off and the accounting firm would likely be fired. If I was the IRS agent, I would not take anything they said seriously. You may disagree with this, but it is the reality of the business world. Later, don't you dress for your job? Lord knows, I did. While my boss didn't really care what I wore into the lab, OSHA certainly did. And when I was up on the podium presenting our lab's data internationally, I was expected to dress the part. The first time I showed up in a pink tube top to present data would likely be the last time I was going to be allowed to present data. Where do you think I said pink tube top? I asked about turban's, sari's and clothes with colour.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 14, 2016 14:55:53 GMT -5
I agree completely. How is it that people can think something different from Rukh? She is so smart and has such vast experience, and the morality she exhibits is beyond reproach. How can anyone think different and live with themselves. What a world we live in. Psst. Some of this stuff is just plain illegal/ aka not just how Rukh thinks about things.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 14:56:32 GMT -5
The fact that you guys interpret "wear colour" as "pink tube top and pj's" is really strange.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 14, 2016 15:01:06 GMT -5
I believe you said pink tube top. How much credibility would you give an accountant that showed up to handle your case with the IRS and she arrived falling out of a pink tube top? If I was the person PAYING the accountant, I would be pissed off and the accounting firm would likely be fired. If I was the IRS agent, I would not take anything they said seriously. You may disagree with this, but it is the reality of the business world. Later, don't you dress for your job? Lord knows, I did. While my boss didn't really care what I wore into the lab, OSHA certainly did. And when I was up on the podium presenting our lab's data internationally, I was expected to dress the part. The first time I showed up in a pink tube top to present data would likely be the last time I was going to be allowed to present data. Where do you think I said pink tube top? I asked about turban's, sari's and clothes with colour. Sorry, I misread what you wrote. However, I HAVE worked in places where turbans and saris (no apostrophe) are common. The woman wearing the sari got sent home from the lab - not because she was wearing a sari (even though it did pose a fire hazard for her) it was because she also had on a pair of sandals with it. Women have also been sent home wearing capris as well. If someone wearing a turban needed to be in the animal quarters fully garbed up, the turban would need to go. Regardless of reason, if a company has a dress code, it needs to be honored. For me, OSHA ran the lab's dress code. I could have argued with them, even though some of the rules were ridiculous. However, I'd also be out of a job if I did not comply. I have the choice not to comply. They have the choice to fire me. Ultimately, it's my choice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 15:03:01 GMT -5
And that company would not meet with my approval. Sorry about that, milee got that one by me. She made another one of her crazy leaps. I should have deleted the second sentence in the quote.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 15:06:47 GMT -5
I agree completely. How is it that people can think something different from Rukh? She is so smart and has such vast experience, and the morality she exhibits is beyond reproach. How can anyone think different and live with themselves. What a world we live in. Psst. Some of this stuff is just plain illegal/ aka not just how Rukh thinks about things. can you direct me those laws please
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 15:07:27 GMT -5
Where do you think I said pink tube top? I asked about turban's, sari's and clothes with colour. Sorry, I misread what you wrote. However, I HAVE worked in places where turbans and saris (no apostrophe) are common. The woman wearing the sari got sent home from the lab - not because she was wearing a sari (even though it did pose a fire hazard for her) it was because she also had on a pair of sandals with it. Women have also been sent home wearing capris as well. If someone wearing a turban needed to be in the animal quarters fully garbed up, the turban would need to go. Regardless of reason, if a company has a dress code, it needs to be honored. For me, OSHA ran the lab's dress code. I could have argued with them, even though some of the rules were ridiculous. However, I'd also be out of a job if I did not comply. I have the choice not to comply. They have the choice to fire me. Ultimately, it's my choice. Again, I'm not arguing about whether you need to follow their rules. I'm talking about the rules and their intent. I've never said a word about safety requirements. I'm talking about the dress codes you refer to as ridiculous. People on here don't seem to even want me to say they are ridiculous.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 14, 2016 15:09:31 GMT -5
But it is... kind of... if I can show up in Pink Boob tube (that was fun to type!) for a job interview to a company I KNOW has a conservative dress code and expect to get hired... I'm living in some alternate reality. Just to make this alittle less about what women wear... if the male candidate showed up in shorts and sandals (with or without white socks) I can't imagine that he'd be expecting to get hired either. OK, maybe if they had a really good verifiable excuse for why they opted to appear at the interview in what they are wearing instead of postponing the interview. An interview is to see how well you'd fit in with the corporate team and it appears you DON"T own clothing that meets the dress code of the employer - why would they consider hiring you? There's a good chance you'll show up the first day of work and be sent home - because you aren't meeting the dress code. If the employer lets you keep working (more than a day or two) like that - I suspect the rest of the employees who are playing by the rules will become restless (and maybe even ugly). That's drama the employer doesn't need at work. That is nowhere close to what I said. There is a lot of space between a dark business suit and tube tops and pj's.
I will reiterate again that I agree that this kind of discrimination does happen. My point is that it's purpose is to stop diversity and make sure everyone plays by the rules. The biggest fear of those in charge is that the rules will change on them. They are on top with these rules, they might not be if the rules change. They're biggest accomplishment is convincing everyone else that is trying to get ahead that their rules are proper and good and convince them to perpetuate the system. I'm not willing to say that name discrimination and dark suit dress codes make sense and are designed for any purpose but to control the minions. No, you didn't say it - you implied it. Unless I'm confused on what a tube top is... But, Yes, in a perfect world one's qualifications should trump all else and unfortunately that isn't ever going to happen. No one works in a vacuum - where they can totally and 100% be themselves. OK, maybe I'm just one of those people who have to work at keeping their idiosynchronies and flaws in check so I don't alienate EVERYONE in my life.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 15:11:43 GMT -5
See my previous post where milee was the one talking about tube tops. I have never said, or even thought, anyone should be wearing tube tops to work or work interviews.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 14, 2016 15:14:11 GMT -5
Sorry, I misread what you wrote. However, I HAVE worked in places where turbans and saris (no apostrophe) are common. The woman wearing the sari got sent home from the lab - not because she was wearing a sari (even though it did pose a fire hazard for her) it was because she also had on a pair of sandals with it. Women have also been sent home wearing capris as well. If someone wearing a turban needed to be in the animal quarters fully garbed up, the turban would need to go. Regardless of reason, if a company has a dress code, it needs to be honored. For me, OSHA ran the lab's dress code. I could have argued with them, even though some of the rules were ridiculous. However, I'd also be out of a job if I did not comply. I have the choice not to comply. They have the choice to fire me. Ultimately, it's my choice. Again, I'm not arguing about whether you need to follow their rules. I'm talking about the rules and their intent. I've never said a word about safety requirements. I'm talking about the dress codes you refer to as ridiculous. People on here don't seem to even want me to say they are ridiculous. Let me put it this way. I can legitimately wear a mini skirt into the lab with 4" heels and OSHA would not bat an eye. However, I cannot wear a pair of capris or shorts (even longer than the mini skirt) into the lab. I can wear 4" heels, but I had damn better be sure all my toes/feet are covered. IOW, no sandals whatsoever. Exactly how safe do you think one would be trying to carry and balance a 20 liter vat of microbes wearing a pair of 4" heels? Exactly how much would you flash your coworkers if you had to climb onto the lab bench to pick grab some supplies in a mini skirt? I can't see where anyone said saris or turbans are ridiculous.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 15:14:19 GMT -5
There is a whole lotta space between this and me saying making people change their names and wear dark suits all the time is discriminatory and an attempt at control.
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