zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Dec 27, 2015 16:57:42 GMT -5
Yup, if I actually saw one in a bar, I'd leave. Silly of course because concealed is just that but I tend to think if you're not being cool, you're looking for trouble. My philosophy about concealed is the exact opposite. I carry in places I'm not allowed to but no one knows but me.
|
|
beergut
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 11, 2011 13:58:39 GMT -5
Posts: 2,184
|
Post by beergut on Dec 27, 2015 18:46:22 GMT -5
Promising to sign open carry into legislation was one of the things that helped get Governor Abbott elected in Texas.
Texas' gun laws can be a little hokey, because there was concern during Reconstruction that Northerners that moved down here, aka carpetbaggers, were nervous about former Confederates walking around with guns, and would try to take them away. Gun rights were written into the revamped State Constitution, but I believe in doing so, they inadvertently limited some rights.
I think the worries about gun battles in Main Street and it turning into the Wild Wild West are way overblown.
|
|
Bluerobin
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:24:30 GMT -5
Posts: 17,345
Location: NEPA
|
Post by Bluerobin on Jan 2, 2016 10:50:55 GMT -5
Should some "attack" happen, those open carrying would be among the first targeted. Not a good idea. But then again, no permit is needed for open carry in Pa, but one is needed for concealed carry (infringement?).
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 2, 2016 11:13:33 GMT -5
Yup, if I actually saw one in a bar, I'd leave. Silly of course because concealed is just that but I tend to think if you're not being cool, you're looking for trouble. My philosophy about concealed is the exact opposite. I carry in places I'm not allowed to but no one knows but me. I think carrying a gun in a bar is illegal, federally, unless you are law enforcement. It's along the same laws for handguns for those under 21. More than once, we've gone into a restaurant intending on eating in the restaurant and winding up eating at the bar. SO (who usually conceal carries) has had to go back to the car to remove his firearm.
|
|
tractor
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 15:19:30 GMT -5
Posts: 3,492
|
Post by tractor on Jan 2, 2016 11:23:11 GMT -5
Yup, if I actually saw one in a bar, I'd leave. Silly of course because concealed is just that but I tend to think if you're not being cool, you're looking for trouble. My philosophy about concealed is the exact opposite. I carry in places I'm not allowed to but no one knows but me. I think carrying a gun in a bar is illegal, federally, unless you are law enforcement. It's along the same laws for handguns for those under 21. More than once, we've gone into a restaurant intending on eating in the restaurant and winding up eating at the bar. SO (who usually conceal carries) has had to go back to the car to remove his firearm. That's the way it is in Michigan. The state has a zero tolerance policy for CPL holders. If you want to have even one drink, you cannot have your weapon on you, or your permit will be revoked.
|
|
gregintenn
Senior Member
Resident hillbilly
Joined: Dec 28, 2015 17:07:59 GMT -5
Posts: 2,840
|
Post by gregintenn on Jan 2, 2016 11:41:54 GMT -5
I find it funny how the human brain is conditioned. We think nothing of a guy carrying a gun if he's wearing a badge. Just like we'd heed any insane medical advice from a complete stranger if he wears a labcoat.
I live in the sticks, and firearms are as common here as cell phones. I think nothing of it, except maybe "That's a pretty pistol!".
I do get tickled at the guys who show up at gun shows and stores dressed in their mall ninja best.
I prefer to conceal carry most of the time as I do not enjoy much human interaction, and I expect open carry would increase this if anyone ever noticed. Most places you could walk around with an AK47 duct taped to your forehead and no one would notice.
I make conceal carry belts, holsters, etc., and you'd be quite surprised as to some of my clientele. More people are armed than you'd ever dream.
|
|
tskeeter
Junior Associate
Joined: Mar 20, 2011 19:37:45 GMT -5
Posts: 6,831
|
Post by tskeeter on Jan 2, 2016 12:46:11 GMT -5
While I'm pro gun ownership, I have concerns about widespread carrying of fire arms as a dress accessory. Why? I think back a year or so to the teacher who dropped her loaded gun, wounding herself while in her classroom. Unfortunately, I don't trust the judgement of many people when it comes to their gun handling practices. Knowledgable gun owners don't keep a round chambered unless they are actually in the process of shooting. Obviously the teacher in my example failed that part of the gun safety class. Think about your goofiest friend, the one who exhibits the poorest judgement. Do you trust them to sport a gun strapped to their hip while visiting your home?
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 2, 2016 13:17:59 GMT -5
While I'm pro gun ownership, I have concerns about widespread carrying of fire arms as a dress accessory. Why? I think back a year or so to the teacher who dropped her loaded gun, wounding herself while in her classroom. Unfortunately, I don't trust the judgement of many people when it comes to their gun handling practices. Knowledgable gun owners don't keep a round chambered unless they are actually in the process of shooting. Obviously the teacher in my example failed that part of the gun safety class. Think about your goofiest friend, the one who exhibits the poorest judgement. Do you trust them to sport a gun strapped to their hip while visiting your home? This is more to do with the state laws with regards to having a gun than anything else. There is an incredible disparity across the US with regards to conceal carry and education one receives in order to do so. In WA, there is virtually none required (even though I have probably had around 40 classroom hours and twice that shooting at the range with an instructor). But in other states, like KY, you have to have a certain number of classroom hours and take a range test to be able to get a CWP.
|
|
tloonya
Junior Associate
What status?
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:22:13 GMT -5
Posts: 8,452
|
Post by tloonya on Jan 2, 2016 13:41:39 GMT -5
I am in PA. I have seen people walking around with rifles all of my life. I am in PA have never seen a rifle. Which PA are you at?
|
|
gregintenn
Senior Member
Resident hillbilly
Joined: Dec 28, 2015 17:07:59 GMT -5
Posts: 2,840
|
Post by gregintenn on Jan 2, 2016 13:42:28 GMT -5
While I'm pro gun ownership, I have concerns about widespread carrying of fire arms as a dress accessory. Why? I think back a year or so to the teacher who dropped her loaded gun, wounding herself while in her classroom. Unfortunately, I don't trust the judgement of many people when it comes to their gun handling practices . Knowledgable gun owners don't keep a round chambered unless they are actually in the process of shooting. Obviously the teacher in my example failed that part of the gun safety class. Think about your goofiest friend, the one who exhibits the poorest judgement. Do you trust them to sport a gun strapped to their hip while visiting your home? Really? Is that protocol for police? Military? This is akin of having a fire extinguisher, but not having it charged until there's a fire.
|
|
tloonya
Junior Associate
What status?
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:22:13 GMT -5
Posts: 8,452
|
Post by tloonya on Jan 2, 2016 13:43:22 GMT -5
I want to be able to carry a samurai sword. Much more elegant. And getting in a car is a breeze
|
|
tloonya
Junior Associate
What status?
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:22:13 GMT -5
Posts: 8,452
|
Post by tloonya on Jan 2, 2016 13:49:34 GMT -5
I just want to ask. Those who said guns don't kill people - people are killing people...are they deliberately omitting the fact that people with gun killing people. People without guns don't. Because they don't have guns!
|
|
gregintenn
Senior Member
Resident hillbilly
Joined: Dec 28, 2015 17:07:59 GMT -5
Posts: 2,840
|
Post by gregintenn on Jan 2, 2016 13:51:45 GMT -5
I just want to ask. Those who said guns don't kill people - people are killing people...are they deliberately omitting the fact that people with gun killing people. People without guns don't. Because they don't have guns!Right. These people use knives, clubs, hammers, poison, bombs, feet, fists, automobiles, etc.
|
|
tloonya
Junior Associate
What status?
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:22:13 GMT -5
Posts: 8,452
|
Post by tloonya on Jan 2, 2016 14:44:24 GMT -5
I just want to ask. Those who said guns don't kill people - people are killing people...are they deliberately omitting the fact that people with gun killing people. People without guns don't. Because they don't have guns!Right. These people use knives, clubs, hammers, poison, bombs, feet, fists, automobiles, etc. greg, you have chance to fight. Not the gun though... PEOPLE with GUNS kill people!
|
|
gregintenn
Senior Member
Resident hillbilly
Joined: Dec 28, 2015 17:07:59 GMT -5
Posts: 2,840
|
Post by gregintenn on Jan 2, 2016 14:49:52 GMT -5
Right. These people use knives, clubs, hammers, poison, bombs, feet, fists, automobiles, etc. greg, you have chance to fight. Not the gun though... PEOPLE with GUNS kill people! I have guns, and I've never killed people.
|
|
Apple
Junior Associate
Always travel with a sense of humor
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 15:51:04 GMT -5
Posts: 9,938
Mini-Profile Name Color: dc0e29
|
Post by Apple on Jan 2, 2016 19:55:27 GMT -5
I'd bet most of the people I know own guns. The only murderer I personally know used everything but a gun to murder someone (pans, garden tools, stuff from a junk drawer, his boots...!)
|
|
mroped
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 17, 2014 17:36:56 GMT -5
Posts: 3,453
|
Post by mroped on Jan 2, 2016 23:40:43 GMT -5
Up until this past year, the number of people that died as a result of a car accident was higher then that of people killed in a shooting. Apparently in 2015 the shootings took over. Normaly, the argument goes by asking "and are we trying to ban cars?" That would be a good point, a good question, but the difference is that car accidents are mostly that: accidents! Shootings on the other hand are in majority intentional! I own guns and I don't believe I know anyone that doesn't have guns. Yet, none of those that I know ever shot anyone. That goes for the vast majority of gun owners but there are those that unfortunately, in a split second fly of the handle and go bezerk and start shooting. Because of those, we do need to have regulation in place. In fact WE DO have regulation in place but what use for it if it doesn't have any teeth? If you drive you always can be pulled over for a number of reasons- real or imagined Your licence gets checked and so on. If you are packing, you cannot be stopped and asked for documentation because oh God so many legal reasons- again real or imagined. So the question is, how are the LEO going to prevent something bad from happening when you cannot be stopped and searched or questioned about the weapon that you are carrying? You know that "illegal search and ceasure" thing in the Constitution. It doesn't even matter if you appear to be mentally unbalanced or inebriated. Your individual rights are to be respected or else there will be hell to pay! So how come we created a law but then acted like we didn't know that it can't be enforced? "We have laws, we don't need more!"- maybe we should consider altering some?!
|
|
tloonya
Junior Associate
What status?
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:22:13 GMT -5
Posts: 8,452
|
Post by tloonya on Jan 3, 2016 9:53:25 GMT -5
I'd bet most of the people I know own guns. The only murderer I personally know used everything but a gun to murder someone (pans, garden tools, stuff from a junk drawer, his boots...!) How many people he killed with all this equipment?
|
|
tloonya
Junior Associate
What status?
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:22:13 GMT -5
Posts: 8,452
|
Post by tloonya on Jan 3, 2016 9:54:27 GMT -5
greg, you have chance to fight. Not the gun though... PEOPLE with GUNS kill people! I have guns, and I've never killed people. I have never said ALL the people who own guns kill people. Have I
|
|
gregintenn
Senior Member
Resident hillbilly
Joined: Dec 28, 2015 17:07:59 GMT -5
Posts: 2,840
|
Post by gregintenn on Jan 3, 2016 10:00:33 GMT -5
Up until this past year, the number of people that died as a result of a car accident was higher then that of people killed in a shooting. Apparently in 2015 the shootings took over. Normaly, the argument goes by asking "and are we trying to ban cars?" That would be a good point, a good question, but the difference is that car accidents are mostly that: accidents! Shootings on the other hand are in majority intentional! I own guns and I don't believe I know anyone that doesn't have guns. Yet, none of those that I know ever shot anyone. That goes for the vast majority of gun owners but there are those that unfortunately, in a split second fly of the handle and go bezerk and start shooting. Because of those, we do need to have regulation in place. In fact WE DO have regulation in place but what use for it if it doesn't have any teeth? If you drive you always can be pulled over for a number of reasons- real or imagined Your licence gets checked and so on. If you are packing, you cannot be stopped and asked for documentation because oh God so many legal reasons- again real or imagined. So the question is, how are the LEO going to prevent something bad from happening when you cannot be stopped and searched or questioned about the weapon that you are carrying? You know that "illegal search and ceasure" thing in the Constitution. It doesn't even matter if you appear to be mentally unbalanced or inebriated. Your individual rights are to be respected or else there will be hell to pay! So how come we created a law but then acted like we didn't know that it can't be enforced? "We have laws, we don't need more!"- maybe we should consider altering some?! It isn't an LEOs job to prevent something bad from happening.
|
|
tloonya
Junior Associate
What status?
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:22:13 GMT -5
Posts: 8,452
|
Post by tloonya on Jan 3, 2016 10:09:34 GMT -5
So the question is, how are the LEO going to prevent something bad from happening when you cannot be stopped and searched or questioned about the weapon that you are carrying? It isn't an LEOs job to prevent something bad from happening. LEO as a zodiac sign?
|
|
gregintenn
Senior Member
Resident hillbilly
Joined: Dec 28, 2015 17:07:59 GMT -5
Posts: 2,840
|
Post by gregintenn on Jan 3, 2016 10:11:21 GMT -5
It isn't an LEOs job to prevent something bad from happening. LEO as a zodiac sign? Law Enforcement Officer
|
|
mroped
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 17, 2014 17:36:56 GMT -5
Posts: 3,453
|
Post by mroped on Jan 3, 2016 10:12:38 GMT -5
Could you describe what is a LEO job then?
One would assume that if the law is enforced to the full extent of it, then no illegal things would happen. Does killing someone qualify as legal? Does carrying a weapon that is illegal by law, qualify as legal if you have it hidden under your coat?
LEO- law enforcement officer I believe that their general name reflects the description of their job. If they don't enforce the law then what are they suppose to do? Stand around and look pretty in their uniforms? Help old ladies cross the street and greet the people passing by? Give you directions to the nearest WallMart store?
|
|
gregintenn
Senior Member
Resident hillbilly
Joined: Dec 28, 2015 17:07:59 GMT -5
Posts: 2,840
|
Post by gregintenn on Jan 3, 2016 10:34:59 GMT -5
Could you describe what is a LEO job then? One would assume that if the law is enforced to the full extent of it, then no illegal things would happen. Does killing someone qualify as legal? Does carrying a weapon that is illegal by law, qualify as legal if you have it hidden under your coat? LEO- law enforcement officer I believe that their general name reflects the description of their job. If they don't enforce the law then what are they suppose to do? Stand around and look pretty in their uniforms? Help old ladies cross the street and greet the people passing by? Give you directions to the nearest WallMart store? You damn well the answer to every question you ask.
|
|
mroped
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 17, 2014 17:36:56 GMT -5
Posts: 3,453
|
Post by mroped on Jan 3, 2016 12:01:46 GMT -5
No, I just described what "I" understand and what I believe that LEOs do! You stated that it is not a LEOs job to prevent bad things from happening. Hence the question. I thought maybe there is something that I don't know about.
Just as a side note: Part of my wife's family were LEOs in some way or another. Back in my country of origin, about half of my cousins and other imediate family are LEOs. So my assumption of what they are doing as a job, is based on what I was told by them but it might be that in other states that might differ. If that is so, please do explain! One never knows enough about laws or how they work or are being enforced. TYIA!
|
|
tloonya
Junior Associate
What status?
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:22:13 GMT -5
Posts: 8,452
|
Post by tloonya on Jan 3, 2016 12:12:18 GMT -5
greg, are you still thinking
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 3, 2016 12:27:59 GMT -5
I think that LEO not totally prevent crime, but ameliorate it. For them to totally prevent it, it would necessitate that they be able to read the minds of every person who has the proclivity to commit crimes. They can make educated guesses from data/past experiences, be a presence in the community to make it less likely to happen, but expecting them to prevent crime altogether is too ambitious.
Mroped......exactly how would one prevent bad things from happening? When criminals are caught, it is AFTER they have broken the law and they are apprehended. Until someone does commit a crime, LEO have very little power to lock them up....and quite frankly, would you really want them to have this power? Would you want to lock up criminals merely because they MIGHT kill someone?
|
|
mroped
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 17, 2014 17:36:56 GMT -5
Posts: 3,453
|
Post by mroped on Jan 3, 2016 12:59:41 GMT -5
Oh God no! I wouldn't want the cops to stop everybody on the street and stip search them! As a trained professional, they should be able to spot an individual that behaves in an abnormal way: avoiding eye contact, taking the long way around, trying to conceal something under their clothing. If the law would allow them, they could stop and ask this individual a few questions and form so a better opinion about what is going on. Under the current laws they can't do that due to the fact that most would claim some sort of discrimination. Confiscating an illegal weapon might foil an attempt on a life. Would be unrealistic to claim that allowing them to do that would stop all crime. I don't see the reason to stop anybody that walks around with a tool belt that has a big claw hammer and a decent size knive or screwdriver. But it can be reduced! For all murder to be eradicated we would need those weird twins hooked up to some machine and Ofcourse Tom Cruise!
|
|
gregintenn
Senior Member
Resident hillbilly
Joined: Dec 28, 2015 17:07:59 GMT -5
Posts: 2,840
|
Post by gregintenn on Jan 3, 2016 13:52:04 GMT -5
No, I just described what "I" understand and what I believe that LEOs do! You stated that it is not a LEOs job to prevent bad things from happening. Hence the question. I thought maybe there is something that I don't know about. Just as a side note: Part of my wife's family were LEOs in some way or another. Back in my country of origin, about half of my cousins and other imediate family are LEOs. So my assumption of what they are doing as a job, is based on what I was told by them but it might be that in other states that might differ. If that is so, please do explain! One never knows enough about laws or how they work or are being enforced. TYIA! Assuming you're serious, the very definition of LEO's job is right there in the title: LAW ENFORCEMENT. You do something wrong; they enforce the law, which could include issuing you a citation, placing you under arrest, executing a warrant, etc. They are not expected to predict what will happen in a few minutes, read your mind, or see into the future. I feel like I'm talking to preschoolers here. What was your country of origin?
|
|
mroped
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 17, 2014 17:36:56 GMT -5
Posts: 3,453
|
Post by mroped on Jan 3, 2016 14:29:52 GMT -5
Doesn't removing an illegal weapon fall under "law enforcement". Or seizing a weapon from an individual that is clearly inebriated or shows clear signs on mental instability?
At the end I start seeing that we in fact might have the same general understanding of what it is maybe with some discrepancies. However, the way I express it and you the same, may come across in the wrong way?!
originaly I'm from Eastern Europe, Romania to be more exact but my wife on the other hand is born and raised here so all her relatives that might have been in LE, did that in US. Thats why the question about "other states"
|
|