beergut
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Post by beergut on Dec 15, 2015 20:47:27 GMT -5
Wait, you mean training the teenage girls that a man is in charge of important financial decisions, a man needs to step in and keep a woman from "making a poor decision", some male rescuer will dig her out of any problems she has and that she needs to play games with guys to get toys and trinkets is not a healthy thing? Those girls need to learn early on that it's fine for a guy to pressure them into doing things they may not like or want - because he really knows best. Sexist, are we? GF asked for his advice. He gave it to her and kept her from committing an uncomfortable % of her discretionary income on a "want". (I understand that, to her, the additional car was a necessity, but brand-new with all the bells and whistles was a "want".) The teenage girls are learning lessons about financial decision-making that they can't learn from their mother. And I've been in the position of picking up the slack when my first husband lived beyond his means, and it started early in the relationship. It got old real fast but by then we were married and had DS. When my sister got out of Med school, my BIL (who had worked 2 and 3 jobs at a time to get her through Med school since they had 3 little girls) asked her to hide money in a savings account that he didn't know about so he wouldn't be tempted to spend it. He now manages the family investments, but he knew he had some things to learn first. My DH doesn't really like to deal with money and keeps a minimal amount in his checking account for walking-around money. Every month when he gets his SS, he writes me a large check. It goes into my account and I pay all the bills. I should also mention that I hate buying cars so much that DH bought our older one while I was out of the country (we exchanged e-mails when he narrowed them down to a short list) and also bought the second one with no input from me except the final choice, and writing the check to the seller. Both our marriages are happy partnerships of equals. OP, at least the GF didn't do what my DH's previous GF did. She was a social worker, so didn't make much money. He ended up taking on credit card debt (which he hasn't done since) propping her up. They discussed it and agreed that they'd look for a sensible low-mileage used car. One day she drove up in a shiny new car. Well, she'd passed a dealership and they had signs advertising a big sale and they offered her a deal good only for one day... I really like your BIL. That is manning up and taking care of your responsibilities. I respect anyone who is working 2 or 3 jobs to take care of their family, I don't care what they're doing. Telling his wife to hide money from him so he can't spend it also indicates some financial self-awareness. Good for him.
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quince
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Post by quince on Dec 15, 2015 20:54:20 GMT -5
How long have you been dealing with a financial mismatch? At the start, not crazy for believing improvements can happen. After >year with little movement in a positive direction? Certifiable.
My husband and I agree on nearly every damned thing on a macro level. Child-rearing, financial priorities, sex, religion, morality, etc. We STILL disagree on the details and need to work those out from time to time.
What does more conservative financially mean? My husband is risk-adverse, so shies away from the stock market. I am more conservative when it comes to how much money I like to have in reserve, and my willingness to spend money to get/accomplish something. Couples should have an equal say in finances and be able to work things out, or they should not have combined finances. Working things out may mean one partner AGREES to let the other one hold the reins, but there is by no means a "correct" default. (Nothing here about whether or not they should be a couple- I think separate finances is a perfectly acceptable way to arrange a relationship.)
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Dec 15, 2015 21:43:27 GMT -5
Whew.... there are a lot of perfect people in this thread...
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Dec 15, 2015 21:44:04 GMT -5
would much rather be writing about how I'm with someone who has learned from past financial mistakes and is building their wealth while living below their means instead of trying to figure out how to keep someone from continually attempting Russian roulette with their finances.
How about you stop trying? I think you enjoy getting to feel superior/getting to be a martyr and riding to her rescue. Otherwise why would you keep banging your head against the wall? If she hasn't gotten the message now, she's not going to. So either you enjoy your arrangement or there is something else in the relationship that makes it worth putting up with her. If it is the latter then you're going to have to learn to live with her finanical faults. Either you will need to step up to be a more equal contributor/take over the household finances as opposed to only paying for treats and bail outs. OR you are going to have to have completely separate finances and accept she's going to f*ck hers up from time to time. I enjoy building wealth. When that is put on hold because the money I was going to invest this month is used to help her fix another avoidable 'emergency', I naturally get frustrated. This isn't come need to feel 'martyred' or 'bragplaint' about how wonderful I am because I'm 'riding to her rescue'. If anything, I question my sanity because I keep trying to help her change, and it isn't happening. Everything else about her is pretty amazing, this is really her only issue. Since it is a fixable issue, I keep hoping she will come to her senses and fix it. Am I insane for believing this could happen? Possibly. Sorry beergut, I'm going to have to say it...aren't you still able to invest everything you'd otherwise be spending on housing if you weren't living at her house for free. Yes, we know you pay for groceries and vacations, but that's not the roof and all the bills that come with it. You got to give her some credit and take some responsibility for the reason she expects you to "rescue" her after years of this living arrangement that puts you ahead financially.
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justme
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Post by justme on Dec 15, 2015 22:36:22 GMT -5
Dude, fucking let her run out of money. 17 year old's car fails inspection? She stops driving it until she or mom get the money for inspection. Cell phone getting cut off? Well she can buy a prepaid phone.
Really if they're not in danger of going hungry or sleeping in the streets, let their mother deal with what to do when she runs out of money.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Dec 16, 2015 0:36:58 GMT -5
She is just following standard YM advice to bring more income into her household.
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bobosensei
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Post by bobosensei on Dec 16, 2015 4:06:57 GMT -5
I don't think a new accord is that extravagant, and I am pretty cheap. I mean, sure, if you can't afford it then it is a bad idea, but from the OP I thought she wanted some 60 thousand dollar fully loaded SUV or something.
And just think if it was beergut's girlfriend that was on here giving her side (what we know from what he tells us) we'd be telling her to the loser. We'd say he was controlling and wasn't contributing to the household. We'd tell her that she wouldn't have these financial issues if he was paying rent. We'd probably be mean to her about the example this is setting for her kids too.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Dec 16, 2015 5:22:38 GMT -5
I don't think a new accord is that extravagant, and I am pretty cheap. I mean, sure, if you can't afford it then it is a bad idea, but from the OP I thought she wanted some 60 thousand dollar fully loaded SUV or something. And just think if it was beergut's girlfriend that was on here giving her side (what we know from what he tells us) we'd be telling her to the loser. We'd say he was controlling and wasn't contributing to the household. We'd tell her that she wouldn't have these financial issues if he was paying rent. We'd probably be mean to her about the example this is setting for her kids too. How am I controlling her?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 16, 2015 5:44:36 GMT -5
Read your old posts. You do and say the same things and we say the same things again. You're dangling the marriage carrot. Why women put up with this nonsense just to get married is beyond me but they do. If she does what you say, you'll give her the privilege of marrying you. She of course thinks you have money and she will be able to access it as your wife. Hah!! More fool her. Same old same old. Pay her decent rent and keep out of her financial business and how she raises her kids. Be grateful she's still putting out. Unreal.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 16, 2015 7:02:27 GMT -5
Your monetary contribution to the household is a form of control. She pays for all the nondiscretionary, unfun things like mortgage and utilities and you pay for the things that are discretionary or adjustable like vacations and groceries. She pays all the set, standard bills and you pick and choose what you'd like to pay for. You pick and choose based on your attitude towards her at the time. You choose to give more or less based on how well she is conforming to your expectations and demands. So instead of paying rent and utilities like most adults and equal partners would, you control her by deciding how much and what groceries to buy, whether or not to go on vacation and to where*, what extras will be bought. She is left being the responsible adult making sure the standard bills are paid while you get to pontificate on your financial expertise and drop in to pay for the fun stuff if you agree with what she's doing. Control.
If you were a reasonable partner, you'd be paying a share of the set expenses so she could budget and have control over the discretionary things that you currently have full control over.
* For a good example of this, refer to your post in a prior thread where you told her there was no need to go on any other vacation and you weren't paying for any other trips because you had just gone on one... to see your family. Great example of how you control. If you were equal partners in that type of decision, I'm guessing she would not have considered a trip to see your family a "vacation."
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2015 7:29:56 GMT -5
The way you formulate your monetary contribution to the household is a form of control. She pays all the set, standard bills and you pick and choose what you'd like to pay for. You pick and choose based on your attitude towards her at the time. You choose to give more or less based on how well she is conforming to your expectations and demands. So instead of paying rent and utilities like most adults and equal partners would, you control her by deciding how much and what groceries to buy, whether or not to go on vacation and to where, what extras will be bought. She is left being the responsible adult making sure the standard bills are paid while you get to pontificate on your financial expertise and drop in to pay for the fun stuff if you agree with what she's doing. Control.
If you were a reasonable partner, you'd be paying a share of the set expenses so she could budget and have control over the discretionary things that you currently have full control over. A thousand times this...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2015 7:46:44 GMT -5
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Dec 16, 2015 8:38:04 GMT -5
Whew.... there are a lot of perfect people in this thread... Tell me about it sista!!!
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 16, 2015 9:06:10 GMT -5
Everything else about her is pretty amazing, this is really her only issue. Since it is a fixable issue, I keep hoping she will come to her senses and fix it. Am I insane for believing this could happen?
Yes. A person is not a car to be fixed. If you want a say so in how things are handled then you need to step up and be an EQUAL contributor to the household. You don't just pay for treats and build wealth with the rest of your money. You pay for your share of the living expenses just like any other adult in a relationship does.
If all you are going to do is ride in to save the day and pay for treats then you don't get to be pissed at her for how she handles the rest of the finances. You chose your role and she has hers.
My DH is a spender. He will never think like me or be me. I could either spend all my time trying to browbeat him into being like me OR I could change our system so it worked around his weaknesses and plays to my strenghts. We're common potters with me in control of the day to day financials.
If it was that important to me that DH be exactly like me money wise then I would had to him and find someone more complimentary to my mind set. It would not have been fair to DH or myself to try to force him to conform to what I felt he should be like.
DH cooperates with me, which allows us to get ahead. I am fine with that. Overtime he's changed but that didn't happen due to me lecturing him and browbeating him every time he made a finanical decision. It came b/c we're now partners and I treat him as an EQUAL rather than child who needs to be educated.
Might want to give that a try with your girlfriend.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Dec 16, 2015 9:37:54 GMT -5
Exactly!
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Dec 16, 2015 10:30:56 GMT -5
Then stop doing it and frustration ends. You are not legally obligated to help her. Every time you help her with a fix, you are just grabbing another shovel and helping her dig a bigger hole. What part of this is not making sense to you? You cannot fix a human being. They are not unfeeling mechanical objects with parts you can order from Amazon. All you've done is condition her reflexes. When financial trouble knocks, she doesn't answer it, she hides behind the curtains and makes you handle the big bad dollar demons at the door.
You can try until the U.S. Mint spits out gold doubloons, but she has no reason to learn a lesson. If she fails to fail, there's no meaning behind any lesson you may have for her. There has to be a rock bottom somewhere for people like her. Some people need to get to just between the rock and the hard place for the lesson to sink in. She seems to need more than that.
You may or may not be insane, depending on how you define the word. One definition I've heard is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Your GF isn't stupid, and her senses appear to be in good working order. She has learned to play you like more than a fine instrument; she's conducting an entire orchestra, since not only she, but her kids are pulling your strings and getting what they want.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 16, 2015 13:03:37 GMT -5
But then youd have to show your cards when your hand is a weak one. This woman is looking for a paycheck-a good one. She thinks he's got money. It's sad on both parts. She's honest at least.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Dec 16, 2015 14:06:28 GMT -5
Read your old posts. You do and say the same things and we say the same things again. You're dangling the marriage carrot. Why women put up with this nonsense just to get married is beyond me but they do. If she does what you say, you'll give her the privilege of marrying you. She of course thinks you have money and she will be able to access it as your wife. Hah!! More fool her. Same old same old. Pay her decent rent and keep out of her financial business and how she raises her kids. Be grateful she's still putting out. Unreal. First, thanks for the honest answer. I'm not dangling a damn thing. I have no need to get married, but she wants to. I'm not going to marry a financial train wreck, so I want to see if she can change before we make this happen. We've already had discussions on how money will be managed if/when we get married. A joint account to pay for all expenses and necessities, separate accounts for everything else we earn. We will have a pre-nup, because she bought this house 13 years before she met me, and I don't want any part of it. I also don't want any part of her retirement savings or pension. This idea that she thinks she'll magically have access to my money once we get married is false. "Be grateful she's still putting out"? I don't understand women who somehow think sex is a privilege that men need to 'earn'.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Dec 16, 2015 14:25:48 GMT -5
I've only read part of this thread but have two questions:
1. When did WeWill change his name and
2. When did his wife have kids?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Dec 16, 2015 14:29:02 GMT -5
I've only read part of this thread but have two questions:
1. When did WeWill change his name and
2. When did his wife have kids?
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Dec 16, 2015 14:36:45 GMT -5
Your monetary contribution to the household is a form of control. She pays for all the nondiscretionary, unfun things like mortgage and utilities and you pay for the things that are discretionary or adjustable like vacations and groceries.
She pays all the set, standard bills and you pick and choose what you'd like to pay for. You pick and choose based on your attitude towards her at the time. You choose to give more or less based on how well she is conforming to your expectations and demands. So instead of paying rent and utilities like most adults and equal partners would, you control her by deciding how much and what groceries to buy, whether or not to go on vacation and to where*, what extras will be bought. She is left being the responsible adult making sure the standard bills are paid while you get to pontificate on your financial expertise and drop in to pay for the fun stuff if you agree with what she's doing. Control.
If you were a reasonable partner, you'd be paying a share of the set expenses so she could budget and have control over the discretionary things that you currently have full control over.
* For a good example of this, refer to your post in a prior thread where you told her there was no need to go on any other vacation and you weren't paying for any other trips because you had just gone on one... to see your family. Great example of how you control. If you were equal partners in that type of decision, I'm guessing she would not have considered a trip to see your family a "vacation." She pays the utilities....except every other month when she tells me she's short, and I pay them. Up to this point, the only bill I haven't ever made a payment on is the mortgage. I don't know what world you're living in where groceries are adjustable, because in a house with three teenagers, the cost of groceries never go down. And it isn't like you just randomly decide what groceries you buy each month based on feeling, especially if you have picky eaters. I don't decide whether or not to pay 'based on my attitude towards her' or 'how well she is conforming to my expectations and demands', that is you inferring something that completely isn't there. You really need to ask why you have such a misandrist attitude. I have calculated what it would cost me to live by myself, all expenses included. I spend an average of three times that amount each month on her and her kids. Your assumption is that she has a budget or any type of control over discretionary expenses. She's told me she has a budget, but repeated requests to see it have failed. She has that magical ability to make discretionary spending always meet (and usually exceed) her income. As for the Summer vacation she wanted to go on, yes, we had gone on a trip to see my family for a cousin's HS graduation. The trip was already scheduled before I even met her, and she wanted to go meet my family. The vacation that I nixed was when we were sending the two older kids to camps, and she decided she needs to go spend a week away with the youngest as some form of sibling equality. After paying for the two camps, buying a car for the 15 yr old, and already planning a second trip back East to see the family (where she wanted to bring all three kids), no, going away for a week on a whim wasn't something we could afford. She also told me she wanted to go to MusicFest in Steamboat in January, but I guess me telling her we can't afford that is just me exerting more control, right? I do love the idea that I'm exerting financial control over someone who makes over $20k more a year than I do, though, and I make a decent living.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Dec 16, 2015 14:37:44 GMT -5
Why don't you guys figure out what is a fair amount for you to contribute and write her a check once a month and be done with it? If she doesn't have money for lamps or vacations after that, then she's out of luck.
And you do dangle marriage in front of her. At least, if everything you have posted here is true you have. You know she wants marriage, so you tell her to change. Later you decide she is still not what you want her to be and start with more manipulation.
And I don't think anyone said men have to earn sex. I don't know any woman that feels that way. But think about it. If someone were constantly undermining you and telling you that you're not good enough, would you want to have sex with them?
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Dec 16, 2015 14:46:31 GMT -5
I thought she only had 2 kids.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Dec 16, 2015 14:48:24 GMT -5
What do you think would be a fair amount to put into a joint account? What would it cover? I'm curious if it's far off from what you are spending now or if you would spend differently out of a joint account. You take mortgage, utilities, some 'wants' like cell phones and cable, a guesstimation on groceries, put all those bills together and split them 50/50. That amount, at least, is what is point into the joint account by both parties each month. If we're talking about 2-3 years from now, it will be significantly less than what I'm spending now, simply because two of the kids will (hopefully, fingers crossed) be moved out and financially independent.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Dec 16, 2015 14:48:49 GMT -5
The amount you contribute is probably fine (I think ) , but the way that the contribution is structured isn't helping your GF to learn how to manage money any better. I had a BF way back that wanted to marry me. The money management thing was what really stopped me, but if it weren't that issue, I'm sure one of the many others would have. I was really young--but glad I wasn't that stupid! I agree that this is something you absolutely should resolve before tying the knot, or it'll be a point of contention throughout your marriage.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Dec 16, 2015 14:52:23 GMT -5
You bought the 15 yo a car too?! Please tell me that's not true.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Dec 16, 2015 14:54:11 GMT -5
It's not about the fact that she makes more than you do. That has zero to do with the discussion. However, the statement below says everything about her attitude towards money, budgeting and family finance:
It's not magic. Unless you're Beergut the Magnificent Magician. She cannot show you a budget because she does not have one. She does not need one. You're it. And no, marriage will not change her. It will only make her legally entitled to more of what she's already getting. And prenup away, by all means. It will offer you some protection, but a good attorney will challenge it in divorce court.
Is she really that wonderful that this is the person you want to spend your life with? If she is, and you have no issue with subsidizing her lifestyle and that of her kids for life, then do it. Because at this point, they are as trained as if Pavlov himself had done the work. At best, you won't be surprised when they're out of money and coming to you for help. At worst, you'll be left wondering someday what else you could have done with that cash.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 16, 2015 15:00:43 GMT -5
I have no need to get married, but she wants to. I'm not going to marry a financial train wreck, so I want to see if she can change before we make this happen
And how long have you been waiting for this to happen? How long are you willing to wait?
It's not fair to either one of you to leave things hanging. If her being a train wreck is a deal breaker for you then you need to set a time point where you throw in the towel and go find someone who fits your viewpoint better and allow her to be free to do the same.
OR you accept her for who she is and you figure out a finanicial system that works around/compensates for her weak areas.
For example my DH does not have a PIN number to his check card. He knows he treats ATMs like a magical money fairy. So he "lost" his PIN number. Going inside the banks is a PITA so it's not as alluring.
A key aspect of this is DH recognizes he has an issue and works with me. If your girlfriend is willing to work with you then you can find a solution. If she isn't willing to work with you then you have your answer and it's time to move on.
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copperboxes
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Post by copperboxes on Dec 16, 2015 15:02:44 GMT -5
First, thanks for the honest answer. I'm not dangling a damn thing. I have no need to get married, but she wants to. I'm not going to marry a financial train wreck, so I want to see if she can change before we make this happen. We've already had discussions on how money will be managed if/when we get married. A joint account to pay for all expenses and necessities, separate accounts for everything else we earn. We will have a pre-nup, because she bought this house 13 years before she met me, and I don't want any part of it. I also don't want any part of her retirement savings or pension. This idea that she thinks she'll magically have access to my money once we get married is false. Ahahaha. Beer, to be honest, DH and I broke YM ranks on this topic, because I needed good data to feel comfortable with getting married. DH (then DF) had things in collections, was using payday loans, and had a motto of "spend it while you've got it." So I really do get your hesitation. DH is super giving, caring, and all 'round awesome guy though. He is frankly great with money in areas where I suck, like networking. I also trust him a lot, because he's such a family and team oriented guy. He is not the type to do things secretly or unilaterally. Him remembering when library books and bills are due... probably not gonna happen, I handle that stuff. Him being a super steady and hard worker daily, networking, mellowly taking on disaster projects no one else at work will touch, that's totally in his wheelhouse. He's zen, I guess is the best way to put it. I am... pretty much the opposite, easily jittered. Despite the differences, we were common potters pretty as soon as we moved in together. We didn't transfer debts or anything, but we pooled our incomes and resources to pay off his debts, buy groceries, pay rent, chipping towards investments. He had a car, I had budgeting skills, we needed to bring our A game given the recession and HCOL, we went for it. It was data on how we each actually are, and how we'd really react in real situations. I absolutely needed to see how we worked together before becoming legally responsible for each other though. DH was talking marriage after 1 year of just dating, I needed more data than that. Marriage is no joke if it goes south. I really do get your caution. I get the sense that your current data isn't very high quality though. It sounds like vou've been using only one method of handling finances for years. The method isn't anywhere close to what you guys are ideally planning to actually do, and it honestly seems to be making the situation worse instead of better in a variety of directions. DH and I were so different, we tried a lot of styles for common potter budgeting and cooking and record keeping, until we found what came readily to both of us and allowed us to tag team with our different personalities. As long as people really like each other and want to work together, I think most of the rest is just details and sorting out what fits best. If something isn't working, I figure go ahead and see about switching it up. Try something new for a set period, like a month, and see how it goes. I would never recommend putting debts in another's name or co-signing at the test phase, but just pooling monthly income for a couple months, that's not outlandish if a potential partner is quality and overall very trustworthy. You might be surprised if you get a clearer agreement like you outlined, with clear contributions, and give it a go. The current set up sounds honestly fairly lacking in both boundaries and unity. The vibe I get from it is sort of like a teenager/parent transition period, usually lots of strife in those set ups, they're by nature pretty unstable because of the mish mash blend of grudging responsibility and varying expenses that may or may not be totally unilateral. Sounds rough for both, but that's just what I'm gathering from your posts. Just my sense of things. Good luck whatever you guys choose, I hope it works out
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Dec 16, 2015 15:05:06 GMT -5
I thought she only had 2 kids. She actually has 4, but the oldest was adopted when he was 18, and is finishing up a tour in the Marines. He got married in October 2014, and his wife is doing an amazing job into talking him into living beyond their means. What is amazing is that GF doesn't like her daughter-in-law because she is something of a princess, and expects to live the lifestyle her parents are living right now. She can see the "live beyond your means" behavior in others, but not necessarily herself. The three in this household are 17, 15, and 13.
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