Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 7, 2015 21:15:55 GMT -5
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Dec 7, 2015 21:56:16 GMT -5
So when I called them 'radicalized Muslims,' explain to me why I was attacked? the man and woman were radicalized Muslims not 'ordinary citizens' We know that how? It is certainly suspected by many to be sure. ... The big question is did they go crazy because of perceived personal slights or does it have anything to do with radical Islam? Being Muslim is not sufficient cause to make them part of the radical crazies. ... They were radicals and Muslim.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 8, 2015 0:51:41 GMT -5
I read these stories that you create and hold to be accurate but I simply don't accept that the world is what you consider it to be. You do work to make it "real" with percentages that come from who knows where that make it seem more authoritarian but it is total fabrication. There is a large group of individuals who are Muslim by accident of birth who have no real knowledge of what being Muslim means, don't really care to work hard to study to figure it out, and will tend to believe what they are told (as is true of most Christians, etc). If everyone is yelling all Muslims are terrorists or jihadists (take your pick), then what can we expect of them. Is or is not Islam a religion of peace? I don't really give a crap because I think that religions are whatever we humans make them. I think it is to the advantage of those of us who would prefer to just live to encourage as many Muslims as possible that it is a religion of peace rather than declaring all Muslims need to be killing us. I got the 15-25% figure from the video in the "here" link in my previous post. If it's a total fabrication (which would bring it perfectly in line with your "the vast majority of people who aren't fundamentalists" claim), then the woman in the video is the one fabricating it. As for the vast majority of nominal Muslims not actually being true (as in: taking the Qur'an seriously) Muslims: absolutely we agree. For what it's worth, I also understand why the US President calls this majority "moderate Muslims" rather than "nominal Muslims who by and large don't give a crap what the Qur'an has to say unless they want to hear it". I disagree with your final statement. I think it's in our best interest to speak the truth candidly. The penalty we pay for deceiving ourselves is far greater than the benefit we gain for deceiving them.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 8, 2015 1:01:57 GMT -5
For this particular issue, a half-dozen examples are given here. I'll also tack on this and this. huh. ok. i am just trying to understand the situation, Virgil. i am not trying to obscure or forgive anything using language. here is where i am at today: ISIS has some tangential involvement with what happened in SB & the perpetrators were Islamic Radicals. the rest of the details are actually not that important to me. moreover, suspected terrorists in the US are denied basic rights and due process under the PATRIOT Act, so i have no reason to presume that any ostensibly legal provisions in the constitution would apply, until they are tested in court. do you think we have any basic disagreement here? if not, try not to get annoyed. i am just looking for answers for MY OWN questions. PS- your first post has nothing to do with me. i didn't comment on it before now. Your questions seemed loaded to me. They punched me in my face and screamed, "Virgil, we are a Socratic Trojan horse. We are trying to lead you to a particular conclusion. Mu ha ha ha ha. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/muhaha.png) " If they were in fact purely benign, purely curiosity-based questions, then we have no disagreement. That appears to be the case, hence mea culpa. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/nerdy.png)
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 8, 2015 11:21:48 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 8, 2015 12:18:40 GMT -5
it would be helpful if the media would throw as much light on this as they do the terrorism itself, but it probably doesn't sell beer, cars, and guns as well.....
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 8, 2015 12:25:13 GMT -5
it would be helpful if the media would throw as much light on this as they do the terrorism itself, but it probably doesn't sell beer, cars, and guns as well..... Absolutely! As long as we have people yelling/posting "OMG! ISIS!" all over the place, Daesh is getting exactly what they want. They're spreading fear and fear is destructive to morale - and to logic. The press, as usual, are fools for the most part. Sad, but true.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 8, 2015 12:43:39 GMT -5
it would be helpful if the media would throw as much light on this as they do the terrorism itself, but it probably doesn't sell beer, cars, and guns as well..... Absolutely! As long as we have people yelling/posting "OMG! ISIS!" all over the place, Daesh is getting exactly what they want. They're spreading fear and fear is destructive to morale - and to logic. The press, as usual, are fools for the most part. Sad, but true. the tail is wagging the holy-war-dog.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2015 13:27:09 GMT -5
While working in concert with a non-domestic terrorist. of course! the Ft. Hood shooter has similarities. but here is my point: this is not an issue of "immigration", right? this guy was a US citizen. This is an issue of Muslim/jihadist terrorism. Everything else is just a side issue. I don't think the people being shot and killed/wounded really cared if he was a US citizen. I also don't care where a Muslim jihadist originates. I wish to retain my legal right to kill someone trying to kill me. California has already enacted Obama's wish list of gun control measures. Universal background checks, magazine limits, waiting periods, how's that working over there ? Sorry, I don't share the gun control delusion.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 8, 2015 13:52:48 GMT -5
of course! the Ft. Hood shooter has similarities. but here is my point: this is not an issue of "immigration", right? this guy was a US citizen. This is an issue of Muslim/jihadist terrorism. Everything else is just a side issue. I don't think the people being shot and killed/wounded really cared if he was a US citizen. I also don't care where a Muslim jihadist originates. um...right. i know what it is. thanks. so, how will Donald Trump's pledge to ban Muslims from coming to the US help? there is the issue, and there are the POLICIES that are used to address it. what do you suggest, D23? for the record, i DO care where jihadism originates. and i care about the strategic goals of terrorism. if we can figure these things out, we have a much better chance of stopping them. but to each their own.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2015 14:08:05 GMT -5
This is an issue of Muslim/jihadist terrorism. Everything else is just a side issue. I don't think the people being shot and killed/wounded really cared if he was a US citizen. I also don't care where a Muslim jihadist originates. um...right. i know what it is. thanks. so, how will Donald Trump's pledge to ban Muslims from coming to the US help? there is the issue, and there are the POLICIES that are used to address it. what do you suggest, D23? for the record, i DO care where jihadism originates. and i care about the strategic goals of terrorism. if we can figure these things out, we have a much better chance of stopping them. but to each their own. I suggest that there is no effective policy that is possible. Other than eliminating the Muslim religion. The religion is where it originates.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Dec 8, 2015 14:19:26 GMT -5
um...right. i know what it is. thanks. so, how will Donald Trump's pledge to ban Muslims from coming to the US help? there is the issue, and there are the POLICIES that are used to address it. what do you suggest, D23? for the record, i DO care where jihadism originates. and i care about the strategic goals of terrorism. if we can figure these things out, we have a much better chance of stopping them. but to each their own. I suggest that there is no effective policy that is possible. Other than eliminating the Muslim religion. The religion is where it originates. Islam has existed since the 600s or something like that. I do not share people's worry that it is only about Islam. If it is only about Islam, why are we even here in 2015? Why didn't this happen in 1940, 1960, 1980, etc.?
I wish people would try to get control of their fear and realize the US helped created radical crazies in the ME. Unlike the bomb everything crowd and I believe it would be better if the US took less of a lead all of this. Let other countries fix it, let other places paint targets on their backs. I want us out of the world policeman lets spend most of our tax money fighting wars way of doing things.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2015 14:25:15 GMT -5
I suggest that there is no effective policy that is possible. Other than eliminating the Muslim religion. The religion is where it originates. Islam has existed since the 600s or something like that. I do not share people's worry that it is only about Islam. If it is only about Islam, why are we even here in 2015? Why didn't this happen in 1940, 1960, 1980, etc.?
I wish people would try to get control of their fear and realize the US helped created radical crazies in the ME. Unlike the bomb everything crowd and I believe it would be better if the US took less of a lead all of this. Let other countries fix it, let other places paint targets on their backs. I want us out of the world policeman lets spend most of our tax money fighting wars way of doing things.
So others should die (Like in Paris) instead of us ? Jihad still originates in the Muslim religion. The statement is correct.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 8, 2015 14:41:55 GMT -5
um...right. i know what it is. thanks. so, how will Donald Trump's pledge to ban Muslims from coming to the US help? there is the issue, and there are the POLICIES that are used to address it. what do you suggest, D23? for the record, i DO care where jihadism originates. and i care about the strategic goals of terrorism. if we can figure these things out, we have a much better chance of stopping them. but to each their own. I suggest that there is no effective policy that is possible. Other than eliminating the Muslim religion. The religion is where it originates. i suggest that you read "Dying To Win" by Pape. Pape points out that, as strange as it sounds in the West, suicide terrorism has nothing to do with Islam, per se. if he is correct, and i think he is, destroying Islam will do nothing to stop it. his case is compelling or i would not mention it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2015 14:55:09 GMT -5
I suggest that there is no effective policy that is possible. Other than eliminating the Muslim religion. The religion is where it originates. i suggest that you read "Dying To Win" by Pape. Pape points out that, as strange as it sounds in the West, suicide terrorism has nothing to do with Islam, per se. if he is correct, and i think he is, destroying Islam will do nothing to stop it. his case is compelling or i would not mention it. We are delving into a human nature discussion. We all want to win, our way is the right/wrong way, our viewpoint of course ! ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) All cults have a "ours' is the true religion" clause in them. Muslims have jihad.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 8, 2015 15:05:24 GMT -5
i suggest that you read "Dying To Win" by Pape. Pape points out that, as strange as it sounds in the West, suicide terrorism has nothing to do with Islam, per se. if he is correct, and i think he is, destroying Islam will do nothing to stop it. his case is compelling or i would not mention it. We are delving into a human nature discussion. We all want to win, our way is the right/wrong way, our viewpoint of course ! ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) All cults have a "ours' is the true religion" clause in them. Muslims have jihad. um....ok. my statement had nothing to do with "human nature". i honestly don't believe there is such a thing. there is only human intelligence, and human fear. if you have time, read that book. terrorism has more to do with "occupation" than religion.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Dec 8, 2015 15:25:30 GMT -5
um...right. i know what it is. thanks. so, how will Donald Trump's pledge to ban Muslims from coming to the US help? there is the issue, and there are the POLICIES that are used to address it. what do you suggest, D23? for the record, i DO care where jihadism originates. and i care about the strategic goals of terrorism. if we can figure these things out, we have a much better chance of stopping them. but to each their own. I suggest that there is no effective policy that is possible. Other than eliminating the Muslim religion. The religion is where it originates. Or we can change the debate about certain topics, and offer a solution based on the fact that the dead Sea scrolls prove the New Testimony has not been alerted. We flip them; I say, I say, we flip them. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/zipit.png)
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 8, 2015 15:32:11 GMT -5
I suggest that there is no effective policy that is possible. Other than eliminating the Muslim religion. The religion is where it originates. Or we can change the debate about certain topics, and offer a solution based on the fact that the dead Sea scrolls prove the New Testimony has not been alerted. We flip them; I say, I say, we flip them. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/zipit.png) how many of us Christians wear clothing made from more than one fabric?
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Dec 8, 2015 17:56:04 GMT -5
Islam has existed since the 600s 700s or something like that. I do not share people's worry that it is only about Islam. If it is only about Islam, why are we even here in 2015? Why didn't this happen in 1940, 1960, 1980s .... realize the US helped created radical crazies in the ME. Historical date corrected .... and there were Islamic terrorists in past decades as well (Munich Olympic Terrorism and Achilles Lauro are just 2 well known examples) www.crf-usa.org/america-responds-to-terrorism/islamist-terrorism-from-1945-to-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden.html
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 8, 2015 18:06:06 GMT -5
Islam has existed since the 600s 700s or something like that. I do not share people's worry that it is only about Islam. If it is only about Islam, why are we even here in 2015? Why didn't this happen in 1940, 1960, 1980s .... realize the US helped created radical crazies in the ME. Historical date corrected .... and there were Islamic Palestinian terrorists demanding their own territory and land back in past decades as well (Munich Olympic Terrorism and Achilles Lauro are just 2 well known examples) www.crf-usa.org/america-responds-to-terrorism/islamist-terrorism-from-1945-to-the-death-of-osama-bin-laden.htmlHistorical data corrected.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Dec 8, 2015 18:09:38 GMT -5
Where did you think the 859,000 Jews expelled from Arab lands between 1945-1950 were going to go other than to the one plot of land where they always were?
Sort of like saying Lebanese Christians and Jews were immigrants. Yeah like in the BCs
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 8, 2015 18:19:09 GMT -5
Where did you think the 859,000 Jews expelled from Arab lands between 1945-1950 were going to go other than to the one plot of land where they always were? Sort of like saying Lebanese Christians and Jews were immigrants. Yeah like in the BCs Where were the more than a million Palestinians (and some Syrians) supposed to go after the creation of Israel in 1948 and after Israel captured the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Golan Heights in 1967 and where they always had lived?
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Dec 8, 2015 18:20:49 GMT -5
Those who lived in Israel and did not commit a terrorist act still do.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 8, 2015 18:23:15 GMT -5
Those who lived in Israel and did not commit a terrorist act still do. So the 1,000,000 plus Palestinians who live outside of Israel because of expulsion were terrorists? Seriously?
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Dec 8, 2015 18:29:32 GMT -5
859,000 modernized / now educated people expelled from Arab lands to their homeland VS 1,000,000 living in the Middle Ages removed ftom a small part of their homeland may not have been a fair fight but it isn't my fight.
My problem is with Islamic terrorists or Easily Radicalized Muslims immigrating to the US without being properly vetted
If they're so lovely, why aren't the Arab countries taking them in? Why does Egypt have a wall?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 8, 2015 18:41:32 GMT -5
859,000 modernized / now educated people expelled from Arab lands to their homeland VS 1,000,000 living in the Middle Ages removed ftom a small part of their homeland may not have been a fair fight but it isn't my fight. My problem is with Islamic terrorists or Easily Radicalized Muslims immigrating to the US without being properly vetted If they're so lovely, why aren't the Arab countries taking them in? Why does Egypt have a wall? Wait-Egypt now has a wall bordering Israel, Lybia, and Sudan? ETA: the Egyptian wall with Gaza is not so much to kerp Palestinians out of Egypt but rather to stop weapons from being smuggled into Gaza.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Dec 8, 2015 19:39:38 GMT -5
Google puts Palestine Grand Total @ 583,121-609,071 vs 859,000 Jews. If Egypt isn't concerns about them arming themselves in the Sinai why are they : the Egyptian wall with Gaza is not so much to kerp Palestinians out of Egypt but rather to stop weapons from being smuggled into Gaza. ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png)
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 8, 2015 20:28:46 GMT -5
Google puts Palestine Grand Total @ 583,121-609,071 vs 859,000 Jews. If Egypt isn't concerns about them arming themselves in the Sinai why are they : the Egyptian wall with Gaza is not so much to kerp Palestinians out of Egypt but rather to stop weapons from being smuggled into Gaza. And the weapons being smuggled into Gaza are to defend against the tyranny of the Israelis, not, for example, for lobbing mortars into the middle of mall parking lots. Be sure to note that Hamas isn't Islamic, even though Hamas stands for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya, which translates to "Islamic Resistance Movement".
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 8, 2015 20:49:51 GMT -5
Google puts Palestine Grand Total @ 583,121-609,071 vs 859,000 Jews. If Egypt isn't concerns about them arming themselves in the Sinai why are they : And the weapons being smuggled into Gaza are to defend against the tyranny of the Israelis, not, for example, for lobbing mortars into the middle of mall parking lots. Be sure to note that Hamas isn't Islamic, even though Hamas stands for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya, which translates to "Islamic Resistance Movement". stop making up arguments. the argument is not that ISIS is not Islamic, Virgil. the argument is that they don't represent Islam any more than WBC represents Christianity. you can mock the argument if you like, but at least get it right.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 8, 2015 21:07:38 GMT -5
No, the argument here is the California attack was an ISIS RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORIST ATTACK on American soil. You are free to chime in that President Obama is not doing anything to keep America safe, if you want to.
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