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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2015 15:00:15 GMT -5
i will wait. I'm not going to get into the evolution of Islam here, and a couple looney toons from on this board are close to getting their way on energy independence. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/zipit.png) for now. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) not sure what you are talking about here, but Sleeping With The Devil is all about the strategic importance of cheap energy in the West, and how that plays into politics in the region.
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 6, 2015 15:07:34 GMT -5
In light of the title of this thread, it should be pointed out there is no proof Daesh was involved in this attack and they have not claimed responsibility, as is their normal practice. At this point, it's more logical to assume (if we absolutely must assume) the culprits to have been self-radicalized (as well as rendered quite dead). The thread title is very misleading. Really? Misleading? Hopefully President Obama will correct your thoughts tonight when he finally calls the attack for what it is. Radical Islamic terrorism. I do not care whether Isis takes public acceptance of the act. They have asked for Islamic terrorists to do exactly what these two did. She publicly stated her allegiance to Isis and their leader. Until any government agency publicly states ISIS has positively has nothing to do with this attack, I will keep the present title. I only changed the title after many facts came into existence.
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2015 15:11:04 GMT -5
In light of the title of this thread, it should be pointed out there is no proof Daesh was involved in this attack and they have not claimed responsibility, as is their normal practice. At this point, it's more logical to assume (if we absolutely must assume) the culprits to have been self-radicalized (as well as rendered quite dead). The thread title is very misleading. Really? Misleading? Hopefully President Obama will correct your thoughts tonight when he finally calls the attack for what it is. Radical Islamic terrorism. I do not care whether Isis takes public acceptance of the act. They have asked for Islamic terrorists to do exactly what these two did. She publicly stated her allegiance to Isis and their leader. Until any government agency publicly states ISIS has positively has nothing to do with this attack, I will keep the present title. I only changed the title after many facts came into existence. let me ask you this, VB. let's say "a person" makes a speech about the horrors of homosexuality in the US. let's say that someone who hears that speech goes out and kills gays, and claims that he was inspired by "that person" to kill gays. would "that person" be responsible for the gays that were killed? anticipated reply: stop playing semantics games with me. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/rolleyes.gif)
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 6, 2015 15:17:37 GMT -5
For posters on this thread: I will not respond to any questions not pertaining to the thread. I will not get off on tangents from arguments that do not apply to the topic. I will not get in tomato/tamata arguments. I will not copy, then delete some sentences and put in my own statement that the poster removed because that poster feels are offensive or personal. TY
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2015 15:21:55 GMT -5
For posters on this thread: I will not respond to any questions not pertaining to the thread. I will not get off on tangents from arguments that do not apply to the topic. I will not get in tomato/tamata arguments. I will not copy, then delete some sentences and put in my own statement that the poster removed because that poster feels are offensive or personal. TY my post was directly related to the topic. it is not in any way a tangent. i am not arguing semantics. i only delete personal remarks from comments, which is in accordance with proboards TAC, and may prevent "flame wars", which have no place here. you and several other posters are making the case that reading Inspire or some such thing makes AQ/ISIS/whomever RESPONSIBLE for the actions. i am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with that perspective. i am simply asking you if that is what it is, rather than ASSUMING that is what it is. it seems to me that jumping to conclusions is considered a virtue by some, but i am not among them.
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Dec 6, 2015 15:29:43 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into the evolution of Islam here, and a couple looney toons from on this board are close to getting their way on energy independence. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/zipit.png) for now. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) not sure what you are talking about here, but Sleeping With The Devil is all about the strategic importance of cheap energy in the West, and how that plays into politics in the region. So much plays into the politics of that region. All I can say is there is some very cool things going on in the energy sector of North America. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/cool.png)
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2015 15:30:43 GMT -5
not sure what you are talking about here, but Sleeping With The Devil is all about the strategic importance of cheap energy in the West, and how that plays into politics in the region. So much plays into the politics of that region. All I can say is there is some very cool things going on in the energy sector of North America. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/cool.png) as i was typing that, i realized that at least for now, we really don't need to play this game with SA any more. that could be, potentially, a very good thing.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Dec 6, 2015 15:36:15 GMT -5
Really? Misleading? Hopefully President Obama will correct your thoughts tonight when he finally calls the attack for what it is. Radical Islamic terrorism. I do not care whether Isis takes public acceptance of the act. They have asked for Islamic terrorists to do exactly what these two did. She publicly stated her allegiance to Isis and their leader. Until any government agency publicly states ISIS has positively has nothing to do with this attack, I will keep the present title. I only changed the title after many facts came into existence. let me ask you this, VB. let's say "a person" makes a speech about the horrors of homosexuality in the US. let's say that someone who hears that speech goes out and kills gays, and claims that he was inspired by "that person" to kill gays. would "that person" be responsible for the gays that were killed? anticipated reply: stop playing semantics games with me. If in that speech you repeatedly said go out and kill the gays. The gays and the Jews are trying to enslave you so kill them both! Then yes, you would be responsible for their actions. Just like if we were talking about the KkK, the Black Panthers, or whoever...
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Dec 6, 2015 16:07:13 GMT -5
Very true dem! China needs that oil more than anyone, which fits right into what I am saying about letting China have their new silk road. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/cool.png)
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 6, 2015 17:42:52 GMT -5
Really? Misleading? Hopefully President Obama will correct your thoughts tonight when he finally calls the attack for what it is. Radical Islamic terrorism. I do not care whether Isis takes public acceptance of the act. They have asked for Islamic terrorists to do exactly what these two did. She publicly stated her allegiance to Isis and their leader. Until any government agency publicly states ISIS has positively has nothing to do with this attack, I will keep the present title. I only changed the title after many facts came into existence. let me ask you this, VB. let's say "a person" makes a speech about the horrors of homosexuality in the US. let's say that someone who hears that speech goes out and kills gays, and claims that he was inspired by "that person" to kill gays. would "that person" be responsible for the gays that were killed? anticipated reply: stop playing semantics games with me. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/rolleyes.gif) If the speech about "the horrors of homosexuality" states (or strongly implies) that the solution to the problem is to massacre homosexuals, then yes, "that person" is complicit in the killings and partly responsible for them.
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2015 17:47:11 GMT -5
let me ask you this, VB. let's say "a person" makes a speech about the horrors of homosexuality in the US. let's say that someone who hears that speech goes out and kills gays, and claims that he was inspired by "that person" to kill gays. would "that person" be responsible for the gays that were killed? anticipated reply: stop playing semantics games with me. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/rolleyes.gif) If the speech about "the horrors of homosexuality" states (or strongly implies) that the solution to the problem is to massacre homosexuals, then yes, "that person" is complicit in the killings and partly responsible for them. i didn't say partly responsible. that is too easy. but thanks for the reply.
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2015 17:54:10 GMT -5
let me ask you this, VB. let's say "a person" makes a speech about the horrors of homosexuality in the US. let's say that someone who hears that speech goes out and kills gays, and claims that he was inspired by "that person" to kill gays. would "that person" be responsible for the gays that were killed? anticipated reply: stop playing semantics games with me. If in that speech you repeatedly said go out and kill the gays. The gays and the Jews are trying to enslave you so kill them both! Then yes, you would be responsible for their actions. Just like if we were talking about the KkK, the Black Panthers, or whoever... but that is the thing, right? in the US, anyway, the KKK, the Black Panthers, or "whoever" have the right to say those things, and to NOT be held to account for the actions that may or may not result from them. ditto for rock bands that advocate violence on others. i believe that all are protected by the 1st amendment. i am not saying that ISIS has first amendment rights. they don't. they are outside the US. i am just saying that it is an inversion of our contemporaneous notion of justice in the US. we typically ONLY hold to account those who undertake the actions. now, if it were shown that ISIS funded or directly instructed the people involved in the SB shooting, then that would be a different thing. and yeah, i get that some of you don't care. thanks for pointing that out over and over again. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/rolleyes.gif)
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2015 17:56:15 GMT -5
as i was typing that, i realized that at least for now, we really don't need to play this game with SA any more. that could be, potentially, a very good thing. And while you are both technically right.... The world still needs SA oil, and without it the world economy suffers. It pleases me to no end to not be so directly dependent on their oil at this point, but we are very dependent on the world economy. Hence, unfortunately, it still does matter greatly to us what happens there.
oh, i know the WORLD needs to play this game. i am just not sure that we do. do we?
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 6, 2015 18:13:03 GMT -5
In light of the title of this thread, it should be pointed out there is no proof Daesh was involved in this attack and they have not claimed responsibility, as is their normal practice. At this point, it's more logical to assume (if we absolutely must assume) the culprits to have been self-radicalized (as well as rendered quite dead). The thread title is very misleading. Really? Misleading? Hopefully President Obama will correct your thoughts tonight when he finally calls the attack for what it is. Radical Islamic terrorism. I do not care whether Isis takes public acceptance of the act. They have asked for Islamic terrorists to do exactly what these two did. She publicly stated her allegiance to Isis and their leader. Until any government agency publicly states ISIS has positively has nothing to do with this attack, I will keep the present title. I only changed the title after many facts came into existence. Yes, misleading. You have attributed these killings to ISIS in your title. The killings were committed by two people. There is an ongoing investigation in progress but no clear connection to ISIS has been found to date. You do not have the knowledge, the facts, nor the ability to find out whether, or not, ISIS was responsible for this. To give them credit for this atrocity is to give them power and they relish that power. When any government agency publicly states ISIS is responsible for this attack, I will recognize the thread's title as accurate.
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 6, 2015 18:25:03 GMT -5
i will wait. I'm not going to get into the evolution of Islam here, and a couple looney toons from on this board are close to getting their way on energy independence. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/zipit.png) for now. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) Not sure if you can read this article, but it lays it all out nicely. As far as I'm concerned the author wrote it softly, but he may still truly believe that we aren't going to see the East completely flare up. -idk- www.wsj.com/articles/can-beijing-sell-silk-road-as-a-marshall-plan-against-terror-1448949756The way I see it, all we have to do is admit that China was right about Islamic terror.. Then we cut off aid to these countries, and let the contractors work for China.... we tell China that the best way to fight terror now - because we were wrong - is to put as much money and protection into the USA to keep the economy going as we can, which of course benefits China as well.. They want their new silk road; which is fine because American business(economy) will also benefit from that because China will be broke after fighting the war and building the road. Essentially after all this plays out, the whole world will be one giant partnership where everyone will be getting paid, and everyone will have a little piece of everyone else.... ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/cool.png) Aham, I'm going to remind you not to hurl insults at other posters. I don't care whether you name those posters, or not. "a couple looney toons from on this board" is not acceptable. Not everyone will agree with your take on issues. That does not make them any less than you are and it certainly doesn't make them "looney toons". The next time I find this your post will simply be removed. mmhmm, Administrator
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 6, 2015 18:24:41 GMT -5
For posters on this thread: I will not respond to any questions not pertaining to the thread. I will not get off on tangents from arguments that do not apply to the topic. I will not get in tomato/tamata arguments. I will not copy, then delete some sentences and put in my own statement that the poster removed because that poster feels are offensive or personal. TY You sure don't like a lot of things, don't you. And who asked you to start a thread in my name ( A Long Island man impersonating a federal Air Marshal)? I know I didn't ask for your assistance in starting a new thread. You didn't like my post so you decided to copy it and create a new thread with it. Don't do that again.
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 6, 2015 18:33:54 GMT -5
For posters on this thread: I will not respond to any questions not pertaining to the thread. I will not get off on tangents from arguments that do not apply to the topic. I will not get in tomato/tamata arguments. I will not copy, then delete some sentences and put in my own statement that the poster removed because that poster feels are offensive or personal. TY You sure don't like a lot of things, don't you. And who asked you to start a thread in my name ( A Long Island man impersonating a federal Air Marshal)? I know I didn't ask for your assistance in starting a new thread. You didn't like my post so you decided to copy it and create a new thread with it. Don't do that again. Wow. I asked you to start a thread on it, and you didn't. I also gave you credit in the second post describing why I did it. I will start any thread which I want to. ty
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 6, 2015 18:39:08 GMT -5
Let's not get into petty sniping, gentlemen. Keep it civil.
mmhmm, Administrator
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Post by Ombud on Dec 6, 2015 19:05:06 GMT -5
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2015 19:11:41 GMT -5
incitement has a very specific legal meaning. do you know what it is? edit: i very specifically stated ISIS has no free speech rights, so i don't know why you cited that.
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Post by Ombud on Dec 6, 2015 19:15:43 GMT -5
incitement has a very specific legal meaning. do you know what it is? I fully expect you to call me an idiot. It's a free country
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2015 19:17:52 GMT -5
incitement has a very specific legal meaning. do you know what it is? I fully expect you to call me an idiot. It's a free country you have exceedingly low expectations. i have NEVER called anyone an idiot on this board. quite the contrary. i think everyone here is very intelligent. i am probably the stupidest one here. so, is that a "no"?
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Post by Ombud on Dec 6, 2015 19:24:37 GMT -5
I fully expect you to call me an idiot. It's a free country you have exceedingly low expectations. i have NEVER called anyone an idiot on this board. quite the contrary. i think everyone here is very intelligent. i am probably the stupidest one here. so, is that a "no"? I don't have low self-expectations!! And yes, of course I know what it means. Again calling me stupid. People often think that those of us lucky enough to live in the USA have complete freedom of speech ... I'm just stating the obvious (since 1919). We do not have the right to incite riots or terrorist activities
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Dec 6, 2015 19:26:32 GMT -5
If in that speech you repeatedly said go out and kill the gays. The gays and the Jews are trying to enslave you so kill them both! Then yes, you would be responsible for their actions. Just like if we were talking about the KkK, the Black Panthers, or whoever... but that is the thing, right? in the US, anyway, the KKK, the Black Panthers, or "whoever" have the right to say those things, and to NOT be held to account for the actions that may or may not result from them. ditto for rock bands that advocate violence on others. i believe that all are protected by the 1st amendment. i am not saying that ISIS has first amendment rights. they don't. they are outside the US. i am just saying that it is an inversion of our contemporaneous notion of justice in the US. we typically ONLY hold to account those who undertake the actions. now, if it were shown that ISIS funded or directly instructed the people involved in the SB shooting, then that would be a different thing. and yeah, i get that some of you don't care. thanks for pointing that out over and over again. If they aren't covered by free speech, that means that they are to be held accountable for this for sure then. I would also say that a lot, if not everything they say is basically defamation.. which they would be held accountable for here. There is also the concept that while not funding them monetarily, they funded their beliefs and passion to carry out this attack. There is also the fact there are a lot of similarities between Paris and SB. Rental cars, multiple attackers, and woman in both attacks are the big overlaps.. Thank God the pipe bombs didn't work in SB...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2015 19:28:23 GMT -5
Looks like daddy saw some signs of radicalization after all www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/12/06/dad-san-bernardino-shooter-agreed-isil-obssessed-israel/76890108/
The father of San Bernardino suspect Syed Rizwan Farook told an Italian newspaper that his son expressed support for the Islamic State group and was obsessed with Israel.
The father, who is also named Syed Farook, told La Stampa that his son took on an overly conservative outlook on Islam and at least once expressed support for ideas promoted by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of the Islamic State militant group, also known as ISIL or ISIS.
"He said he shared the ideology of al-Baghdadi to create an Islamic state, and he was obsessed with Israel," the father told a reporter in an interview outside the home of this other son, Syed Raheel Farook, in Corona, Calif. I kept telling him always: stay calm, be patient, in two years Israel will no longer exist," the elder Farook told the newspaper. "Geopolitics is changing: Russia, China, America too, nobody wants the Jews there."
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Dec 6, 2015 19:31:48 GMT -5
Aham, I'm going to remind you not to hurl insults at other posters. I don't care whether you name those posters, or not. "a couple looney toons from on this board" is not acceptable. Not everyone will agree with your take on issues. That does not make them any less than you are and it certainly doesn't make them "looney toons". The next time I find this your post will simply be removed. mmhmm, Administrator ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) I'm happy to hear you don't think Bruce and I are looney toons, mmhmm. We have put a lot of hard work and dedicated a lot of time to getting to where we are, some people thought I was a fools game.. Looks like we are going to have the last laugh..
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2015 19:38:00 GMT -5
you have exceedingly low expectations. i have NEVER called anyone an idiot on this board. quite the contrary. i think everyone here is very intelligent. i am probably the stupidest one here. so, is that a "no"? I don't have low self-expectations!! i never claimed that. i said you have low expectations, and i was referring to expectations of others. namely ME. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) And yes, of course I know what it means. Again calling me stupid. i didn't ask you "what it means". i asked you if you knew the current LEGAL definition of the term. and i didn't call you stupid. sorry if you took it that way.People often think that those of us lucky enough to live in the USA have complete freedom of speech ... I'm just stating the obvious (since 1919). We do not have the right to incite riots or terrorist activities incitement does not apply to terrorist activities, in the general sense, and in the sense being discussed, here. the standard is from Brandenburg -vs- Ohio. Brandenburg actually advocated terrorist activities, so it is DIRECTLY applicable, Ombud. edit: that case was made in 1969, so unless you made a typo, i am not sure what you meant by 1919.
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2015 19:40:43 GMT -5
Looks like daddy saw some signs of radicalization after all www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/12/06/dad-san-bernardino-shooter-agreed-isil-obssessed-israel/76890108/
The father of San Bernardino suspect Syed Rizwan Farook told an Italian newspaper that his son expressed support for the Islamic State group and was obsessed with Israel.
The father, who is also named Syed Farook, told La Stampa that his son took on an overly conservative outlook on Islam and at least once expressed support for ideas promoted by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of the Islamic State militant group, also known as ISIL or ISIS.
"He said he shared the ideology of al-Baghdadi to create an Islamic state, and he was obsessed with Israel," the father told a reporter in an interview outside the home of this other son, Syed Raheel Farook, in Corona, Calif. I kept telling him always: stay calm, be patient, in two years Israel will no longer exist," the elder Farook told the newspaper. "Geopolitics is changing: Russia, China, America too, nobody wants the Jews there."
very interesting and troubling.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Dec 6, 2015 19:41:33 GMT -5
If the speech about "the horrors of homosexuality" states (or strongly implies) that the solution to the problem is to massacre homosexuals, then yes, "that person" is complicit in the killings and partly responsible for them. i didn't say partly responsible. that is too easy. but thanks for the reply. You didn't say "solely responsible" either. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) ISIS isn't solely responsible for these attacks, but their rhetoric is clearly what motivated the shooters. The wife swore allegiance to their leader and carried out his express will, even though there was no direct contact between them. ISIS claimed responsibility for the attack. They condone it. As I see it, these three elements--ISIS as the motivator, ISIS as the organization to whom loyalty was sworn, ISIS accepting that oath and the shooters' actions--are sufficient reason to call this an "ISIS attack".
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 6, 2015 19:43:11 GMT -5
i didn't say partly responsible. that is too easy. but thanks for the reply. You didn't say "solely responsible" either. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/idunno.gif) ISIS isn't solely responsible for these attacks, but their rhetoric is clearly what motivated the shooters. The wife swore allegiance to their leader and carried out his express will, even though there was no direct contact between them. ISIS claimed responsibility for the attack. They condone it. As I see it, these three elements--ISIS as the motivator, ISIS as the organization to whom loyalty was sworn, ISIS accepting that oath and the shooters' actions--are sufficient reason to call this an "ISIS attack". no, i didn't. but usually when adjectives are missing, the assumption is ALL or NONE. in this case, all. i accepted your response, Virgil, on the basis that you obviously took it as partial responsibility. let's not get into semantics discussions. it upsets VB. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) edit: however, i don't believe that ISIS claimed responsibility for the attack, did they?
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