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Post by Value Buy on Dec 4, 2015 12:22:08 GMT -5
dj, I will not be discussing any semantics today. It is obvious what happened here. If some do not want to believe or accept it, that is ok. Their loss.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 4, 2015 12:22:27 GMT -5
from your link: A count of all attacks since 1970 that took place in United States. A terrorist attack is defined as the threatened or actual use of illegal force and violence by a non‐state actor to attain a political, economic, religious, or social goal through fear, coercion, or intimidation. what goals were sought in this attack? Support the push to not allow Syrian refugees into this country.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2015 12:32:47 GMT -5
dj, I will not be discussing any semantics today. It is obvious what happened here. can i tell you a little story? earlier this year, a friend got called out on FB for touching another friend's breasts. it turned out that he was giving her an innocent hug, and she mistook it. but rather than simply telling him "your hug made me feel uncomfortable", she wrote a 1000 word diatribe on FB calling him a sexual predator. the result was that the entire community had to choose sides in this argument. they either stood with the "predator" or they stood with the "victim". that this split fell along gender lines should be obvious. obvious, is, after all, in the eyes of the beholder. what you are doing here is dividing those of us that want to understand the WHOLE truth about this incident against those who are content knowing one aspect of it. and that is fine. but i would appreciate it if you would not demonize those that want to know the whole truth, call them naiive, or call them unpatriotic. we are just interested in ALL of the facts. that is it. we are not your enemy, VB. ISIS is. stop demonizing and alienating us. TYIA. that goes for you, too, sweets. we are all Americans here, OK? we are ALLIES. if you are thinking otherwise, then ISIS has already won.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 4, 2015 12:43:44 GMT -5
CNN is currently reporting live from the inside of the terrorist home. The landlord tore a piece of wood off the frontdoor with a crowbar, and allowed all media into the house. 'No police on scene?
WTF? One day of investigation and the scene now over run with media.Landlord being interviewed live right now. How could police, fbi, atf RELEASE THE SCENE THIS FAST. Clock on the wall with current time, closets still full of clothing on hangars, desks with items on it. Did they even use any forsenics on the scene?
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 4, 2015 12:48:08 GMT -5
All the clothing still hanging in the closet on hangars. I would think every piece of clothing would have been removed, checked for any evidence, notes, etc, and removed from the premises. The rooms do not even look like they were torn apart to look for anything hidden away. Amazing
Vandals would have torn the place apart better than ATF and FBI
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Dec 4, 2015 12:50:55 GMT -5
The US have been using 200 jets to bomb Raqqa (the headquarters of Isis ) France is using 38, Russia 34, Australia have some jets...We, UK have just voted to send some.....and many other Countries are supporting various, of the more than 60 different factions, which are rampaging across Syria. The whole place is a hornets nest.
Isis is a death cult. They think they are preparing for the next life and will go to heaven if they die supporting the cause. (the spread of Islamic fundamentalism through jihad (holy war) They aren't too bothered about dying.
These guys were planning a terrorist attack..... It is not normal to have a stash of pipe bombs in your house. They don't have/need handlers or instructions. The order is to bomb and kill in the West.....and that's what they have done.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2015 12:52:38 GMT -5
The US have been using 200 jets to bomb Raqqa (the headquarters of Isis ) France is using 38, Russia 34, Australia have some jets...We, UK have just voted to send some.....and many other Countries are supporting various, of the more than 60 different factions, which are rampaging across Syria. The whole place is a hornets nest. Isis is a death cult. They think they are preparing for the next life and will go to heaven if they die supporting the cause. (the spread of Islamic fundamentalism through jihad (holy war) They aren't too bothered about dying. These guys were planning a terrorist attack..... It is not normal to have a stash of pipe bombs in your house. They don't have/need handlers or instructions. The order is to bomb and kill in the West.....and that's what they have done. fair enough. thanks for replying in a non-snarky, non-alienating way. i appreciate it.
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 4, 2015 13:05:42 GMT -5
A poster yesterday mentioned Obama was doing nothing about this and San Bernardino was Obama's fault. I am just wondering what is Obama supposed to do? We already are bombing ISIS sites in Syria and Iraq. In fact, the U.S. has conducted 6,692 of the 8,573 airstrikes. The other coalition countries the remaining 1,881. U.S. Department of Defense: Operation Inherent ResolveShould we now put military boots on the ground in the U.S.?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2015 13:18:46 GMT -5
A poster yesterday mentioned Obama was doing nothing about this and San Bernardino was Obama's fault. I am just wondering what is Obama supposed to do? We already are bombing ISIS sites in Syria and Iraq. In fact, the U.S. has conducted 6,692 of the 8,573 airstrikes. The other coalition countries the remaining 1,881. U.S. Department of Defense: Operation Inherent ResolveShould we now put military boots on the ground in the U.S.? I dunno, probably nothing, except use the federal agencies he controls through the executive branch? Just a crazy idea.
NSA to analyze computer and ocmmunications? Nah, they're probably busy elsewhere.
FBI for very thorough physical forensics and working the neighbors/coworkers to see if they can get leads on any of the people coming to the house, delivering to house? Nah, probably busy too.
ATF to analyze bombs, trace the guns? Nah, i'm sure they're busy too.
You're right, the executive branch has no tools at their disposal. It's understandable that the $3.7 Trillion the Federal government will spend this year won't allow 50 or so federal employees to work this.
They've got to stay busy hassling Vanguard for not bending their customers over.
the NSA/TSA/DHS is too busy reading your emails and checking your shoes to pay attention to stuff that actually matters.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 4, 2015 13:28:23 GMT -5
A poster yesterday mentioned Obama was doing nothing about this and San Bernardino was Obama's fault. I am just wondering what is Obama supposed to do? We already are bombing ISIS sites in Syria and Iraq. In fact, the U.S. has conducted 6,692 of the 8,573 airstrikes. The other coalition countries the remaining 1,881. U.S. Department of Defense: Operation Inherent ResolveShould we now put military boots on the ground in the U.S.? Good question. The war on terror, or at least first response of a terrorist act is always responded to by local police and firemen, first responders. They are the first line of defense. It is currently the responsibility of the FBI, ATF, and maybe the Secret Service to do the investigation of potential terrorists before they strike. I would suggest it remain that way, at this time, but we have to demand better intelligence gathering techniques fro them, then what we are currently getting.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 4, 2015 13:34:23 GMT -5
A poster yesterday mentioned Obama was doing nothing about this and San Bernardino was Obama's fault. I am just wondering what is Obama supposed to do? We already are bombing ISIS sites in Syria and Iraq. In fact, the U.S. has conducted 6,692 of the 8,573 airstrikes. The other coalition countries the remaining 1,881. U.S. Department of Defense: Operation Inherent ResolveShould we now put military boots on the ground in the U.S.? Good question. The war on terror, or at least first response of a terrorist act is always responded to by local police and firemen, first responders. They are the first line of defense. It is currently the responsibility of the FBI, ATF, and maybe the Secret Service to do the investigation of potential terrorists before they strike. I would suggest it remain that way, at this time, but we have to demand better intelligence gathering techniques fro them, then what we are currently getting. Better intelligence may require more eavesdropping on U.S. citizens and non-citizen, but legally in the U.S. Many folks believe that is a violation of our Constitution. So should we profile potential Islamist terrorists? How about profiling and eavesdropping on potential white nationalists/supremacists and anti-abortion terrorists too? After all, they have a long history of death and destruction in the U.S. Far longer than Islamist terrorists
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Dec 4, 2015 13:35:32 GMT -5
You need to up your security...We all do. We are going to see more Paris style, and lone wolf style attacks in Western countries Seven foiled in Britain alone this year......It could easily be us next... and we know it.
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Post by Value Buy on Dec 4, 2015 13:40:06 GMT -5
Good question. The war on terror, or at least first response of a terrorist act is always responded to by local police and firemen, first responders. They are the first line of defense. It is currently the responsibility of the FBI, ATF, and maybe the Secret Service to do the investigation of potential terrorists before they strike. I would suggest it remain that way, at this time, but we have to demand better intelligence gathering techniques fro them, then what we are currently getting. Better intelligence may require more eavesdropping on U.S. citizens and non-citizen, but legally in the U.S. Many folks believe that is a violation of our Constitution. So should we profile potential Islamist terrorists? How about profiling and eavesdropping on potential white nationalists/supremacists and anti-abortion terrorists too? After all, they have a long history of death and destruction in the U.S. Far longer than Islamist terrorists Obviously the Feds have a tough job to do the correct legal thing. It s obvious they blew it on this woman, which should have also brought more attention on her husband who was a citizen. Political correctness allowed this to happen. Once there is legitimate smoke, most federal judges will give the proper ok for advanced surveilance.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 4, 2015 13:52:05 GMT -5
Better intelligence may require more eavesdropping on U.S. citizens and non-citizen, but legally in the U.S. Many folks believe that is a violation of our Constitution. So should we profile potential Islamist terrorists? How about profiling and eavesdropping on potential white nationalists/supremacists and anti-abortion terrorists too? After all, they have a long history of death and destruction in the U.S. Far longer than Islamist terrorists Obviously the Feds have a tough job to do the correct legal thing. It s obvious they blew it on this woman, which should have also brought more attention on her husband who was a citizen. Political correctness allowed this to happen. Once there is legitimate smoke, most federal judges will give the proper ok for advanced surveilance. If the woman had no known connections up to the time of the event, how is our and other nations' intelligence to know? If our intelligence is now just finding out, say, her connection to ISIS was from a single or two email, it may be hard to determine she is/was a threat. According to this link below, over 205 billion emails worldwide are sent/received every day. And by 2019, in a little over four years, the total world-wide number of emails sent/received daily will be over 249 billion. Email Statistics Report, 2015-2019 If she was indoctrinated by ISIS, chances are their tech savvy members have taught sympathizers how to write an email without being detected as a threat to world-wide security. Some people are always going to operate under the radar. Always.
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Post by Opti on Dec 4, 2015 13:53:15 GMT -5
I am surprised no one has posted about the victims yet.
www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/san-bernardino-shooting-look-victims-party-massacre-n473571
Nicholas Thalasinos, 52, a longtime inspector, was also among the dead, his wife told NBC News.
Jennifer Thalasinos said her husband was a devout Messianic Jew and very outspoken politically. She said she considered him a martyr for his faith.
In a short video on that website, Jennifer says she expected her husband and another guy to be dead in this attack.
Benneta Betbadal, 46, of Rialto, fled Iran when she was just 18 to escape Islamic extremism and the persecution of Christians, her family said in a statement announcing a memorial fund.
"Benneta left the house Wednesday morning, excited about a presentation she was scheduled to give to her supervisors and coworkers at their annual meeting," the statement said. "It is the ultimate irony that her life would be stolen from her that day by what appears to be the same type of extremism that she fled so many years ago."
I don't know if we will ever know whether the male shooter started radicalizing himself and then searched for a wife, or ended up with a crazy radicalized wife who made him crazy too. I hope monitoring people who go to countries like Pakistan and Saudi steps up.
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 4, 2015 13:53:44 GMT -5
Not to turn this into a gun debate, but it pisses me off that the democrats and republicans don't wait for the facts to be in before pushing their political agenda.
This just goes to show you how it's not really about safety or good governance, but playing political football and scoring political points.
Now we know the shooters were inspired by ISIS and now all the politicians shut up pretty quick with the usual gun control rhetoric.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2015 14:16:46 GMT -5
Good question. The war on terror, or at least first response of a terrorist act is always responded to by local police and firemen, first responders. They are the first line of defense. It is currently the responsibility of the FBI, ATF, and maybe the Secret Service to do the investigation of potential terrorists before they strike. I would suggest it remain that way, at this time, but we have to demand better intelligence gathering techniques fro them, then what we are currently getting. Better intelligence may require more eavesdropping on U.S. citizens and non-citizen, but legally in the U.S. Many folks believe that is a violation of our Constitution. So should we profile potential Islamist terrorists? How about profiling and eavesdropping on potential white nationalists/supremacists and anti-abortion terrorists too? After all, they have a long history of death and destruction in the U.S. Far longer than Islamist terrorists how about POTENTIAL Eco-terrrorists? POTENTIAL animal rights activist terrorists? ..... ..... ..... and this is how, by degrees, we lose the war.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 4, 2015 14:19:10 GMT -5
from your link: A count of all attacks since 1970 that took place in United States. A terrorist attack is defined as the threatened or actual use of illegal force and violence by a non‐state actor to attain a political, economic, religious, or social goal through fear, coercion, or intimidation. what goals were sought in this attack? I find it interesting that now many on the left are debating the semantics of what constitutes "terrorism" now that there was an ISIS inspired attack on U.S soil. I don't understand why the distinction is so important. Is it because some people don't want to acknowledge a terrorist attack happened on Obama's watch? Or is it because an ISS attack doesn't square with the political agendas of accepting Syrian refugees or gun control?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 4, 2015 14:24:08 GMT -5
from your link: A count of all attacks since 1970 that took place in United States. A terrorist attack is defined as the threatened or actual use of illegal force and violence by a non‐state actor to attain a political, economic, religious, or social goal through fear, coercion, or intimidation. what goals were sought in this attack? I find it interesting that now many on the left are debating the semantics of what constitutes "terrorism" now that there was an ISIS inspired attack on U.S soil. I don't understand why the distinction is so important. Is it because some people don't want to acknowledge a terrorist attack happened on Obama's watch? Or is it because an ISS attack doesn't square with the political agendas of accepting Syrian refugees or gun control? If I recall correctly, some on the right on these boards were debating the semantics of what constitutes "terrorism" when it came to the shooting and deaths of nine people in the S.C. church too. If not the church shootings, it was another mass shooting and killing done by some white American guy.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2015 14:27:45 GMT -5
from your link: A count of all attacks since 1970 that took place in United States. A terrorist attack is defined as the threatened or actual use of illegal force and violence by a non‐state actor to attain a political, economic, religious, or social goal through fear, coercion, or intimidation. what goals were sought in this attack? I don't understand why the distinction is so important. Is it because some people don't want to acknowledge a terrorist attack happened on Obama's watch? Or is it because an ISS attack doesn't square with the political agendas of accepting Syrian refugees or gun control? i deleted your personal remark. please refrain from making them in the future, or the result will be the same. the distinction is important because we are at war with ISIS (arguably), but we are not at war with abortion clinic bombers and disgruntled employees. nothing more or less. please stop trying to trivialize the distinction. tyia.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2015 14:32:04 GMT -5
I am surprised no one has posted about the victims yet.
www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/san-bernardino-shooting-look-victims-party-massacre-n473571
Nicholas Thalasinos, 52, a longtime inspector, was also among the dead, his wife told NBC News.
Jennifer Thalasinos said her husband was a devout Messianic Jew and very outspoken politically. She said she considered him a martyr for his faith.
In a short video on that website, Jennifer says she expected her husband and another guy to be dead in this attack.
Benneta Betbadal, 46, of Rialto, fled Iran when she was just 18 to escape Islamic extremism and the persecution of Christians, her family said in a statement announcing a memorial fund.
"Benneta left the house Wednesday morning, excited about a presentation she was scheduled to give to her supervisors and coworkers at their annual meeting," the statement said. "It is the ultimate irony that her life would be stolen from her that day by what appears to be the same type of extremism that she fled so many years ago."
I don't know if we will ever know whether the male shooter started radicalizing himself and then searched for a wife, or ended up with a crazy radicalized wife who made him crazy too. I hope monitoring people who go to countries like Pakistan and Saudi steps up.
what more do we know about the shooter, Opti. was he born in the US?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2015 14:36:58 GMT -5
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Dec 4, 2015 14:38:05 GMT -5
The point is the definition of terrorism is pretty vague. Is based on the motives of the criminals and the perception of society at large or a specific community.
I just don't understand why the distinction is important, except as yet another political football.
If it's not terrorism, as you suggest, does that mean for the crime itself and the victims as well as the response of the U.S?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2015 14:41:11 GMT -5
I am surprised no one has posted about the victims yet.
www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/san-bernardino-shooting-look-victims-party-massacre-n473571
Nicholas Thalasinos, 52, a longtime inspector, was also among the dead, his wife told NBC News.
Jennifer Thalasinos said her husband was a devout Messianic Jew and very outspoken politically. She said she considered him a martyr for his faith.
In a short video on that website, Jennifer says she expected her husband and another guy to be dead in this attack.
Benneta Betbadal, 46, of Rialto, fled Iran when she was just 18 to escape Islamic extremism and the persecution of Christians, her family said in a statement announcing a memorial fund.
"Benneta left the house Wednesday morning, excited about a presentation she was scheduled to give to her supervisors and coworkers at their annual meeting," the statement said. "It is the ultimate irony that her life would be stolen from her that day by what appears to be the same type of extremism that she fled so many years ago."
I don't know if we will ever know whether the male shooter started radicalizing himself and then searched for a wife, or ended up with a crazy radicalized wife who made him crazy too. I hope monitoring people who go to countries like Pakistan and Saudi steps up.
what more do we know about the shooter, Opti. was he born in the US? He was born in the US. His wife came over from Pakistan about a year ago. Quote; We are investigating it as an act of terrorism, for good reason," David Bowdich, the assistant FBI director in charge of the Los Angeles office, told reporters in an afternoon news conference. On Friday, hours before the FBI announcment, Fox New confirmed that the wife, Tashfeen Malik, had pledged her allegiance to ISIS as the morning attack began. She and husband Syed Rizwan Farook were killed hours later in a shootout with police just two miles away. www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjRrb2p_MLJAhUkm4MKHbiYCQoQqQIIHTAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foxnews.com%2Fus%2F2015%2F12%2F04%2Fsocal-jihadist-wife-pledged-allegiance-to-isis-report%2F&usg=AFQjCNGKI3wk3NcsDUwI7f82dJX7GGYt2A
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2015 14:50:43 GMT -5
The point is the definition of terrorism is pretty vague. Is based on the motives of the criminals and the perception of society at large or a specific community. I just don't understand why the distinction is important, except as yet another political football. If it's not terrorism, as you suggest, does that mean for the crime itself and the victims as well as the response of the U.S? i never suggested that it was not terrorism. i just went to the link that was posted, saw the definition and asked the question, because i don't know the answer. another poster answered the question, and i accepted that answer. this is settled business. asking the question is sometimes just asking the question, Phoenix. not everyone here is making a political game out of this, ok? fear and fiction are more deadly than Ebola. let's get this right, and THEN decide what to do.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Dec 4, 2015 14:51:10 GMT -5
what more do we know about the shooter, Opti. was he born in the US? He was born in the US. in that case, i would call this "domestic terrorism", wouldn't you?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 4, 2015 14:52:53 GMT -5
Thanks. And what was it that someone said about women not being a threat?? 2 XX chromosomes is no different than an XY -- both have potential to be equally dangerous Still no public photo of this assassin? New police update at 11 pacific time Here you go.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2015 14:57:49 GMT -5
in that case, i would call this "domestic terrorism", wouldn't you? While working in concert with a non-domestic terrorist. (I've edited my previous post with more info, reply #299) From link in #299. Quote; We are investigating it as an act of terrorism, for good reason," David Bowdich, the assistant FBI director in charge of the Los Angeles office, told reporters in an afternoon news conference.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Dec 4, 2015 15:00:58 GMT -5
I am surprised no one has posted about the victims yet.
www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/san-bernardino-shooting-look-victims-party-massacre-n473571
Nicholas Thalasinos, 52, a longtime inspector, was also among the dead, his wife told NBC News.
Jennifer Thalasinos said her husband was a devout Messianic Jew and very outspoken politically. She said she considered him a martyr for his faith.
In a short video on that website, Jennifer says she expected her husband and another guy to be dead in this attack.
Benneta Betbadal, 46, of Rialto, fled Iran when she was just 18 to escape Islamic extremism and the persecution of Christians, her family said in a statement announcing a memorial fund.
"Benneta left the house Wednesday morning, excited about a presentation she was scheduled to give to her supervisors and coworkers at their annual meeting," the statement said. "It is the ultimate irony that her life would be stolen from her that day by what appears to be the same type of extremism that she fled so many years ago."
I don't know if we will ever know whether the male shooter started radicalizing himself and then searched for a wife, or ended up with a crazy radicalized wife who made him crazy too. I hope monitoring people who go to countries like Pakistan and Saudi steps up.
what more do we know about the shooter, Opti. was he born in the US? He was born in the US. He unfortunately seems to fit the profile of those nice quiet guys who seems to be OK with everything, but apparently are not. Several dating profiles on out the country websites and he wanted her to wear a hijab.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Dec 4, 2015 15:02:38 GMT -5
Who did she verbally or in writing pledge it to as the morning attack began? Your article does not say. Supposedly to the head of ISIS under a pseudonym account.
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