Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 8:59:08 GMT -5
There is a woman at McDonalds with a dog with the "service dog" vest on it. "Please don't touch, I am working" sign also. It started howling and barking. There is no way it is a service dog. Maybe it is one of those dogs that give comfort, idk. I love dogs and would like it if McDonalds allowed all dogs. It kind of ticks me off that this woman is doing what she is doing. It gives service dogs a bad name. I could understand sneaking a dog in, maybe in a baby carriage or something, but just sticking a vest on a dog and passing it off as a working dog is wrong. Boo on her.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 9:11:36 GMT -5
Maybe it's a seizure alert dog and you should be getting that woman to a hospital!
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jul 27, 2015 9:17:01 GMT -5
Maybe it was alerting her to take her medication?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 9:25:28 GMT -5
Maybe it was alerting her to take her medication? it was howling. it is not a service dog. It was barking at one point, howling at another, paying attention to some kid. Imagine you seeing a dog that you are sure is not a service dog, that was the kind of dog it was.
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Cookies Galore
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Post by Cookies Galore on Jul 27, 2015 9:54:42 GMT -5
Okay, so she's a piece of shit and a liar. Happy now?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 9:57:40 GMT -5
Okay, so she's a piece of shit and a liar. Happy now? No. It was just a topic to talk about. People complain about kids howling in a restaurant. I complained about a dog howling in McDonalds.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Jul 27, 2015 9:59:36 GMT -5
Okay, so she's a piece of shit and a liar. Happy now? No. It was just a topic to talk about. People complain about kids howling in a restaurant. I complained about a dog howling in McDonalds. I'd rather listen to a dog howl than a kid howl any day of the week.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 27, 2015 10:03:22 GMT -5
::Maybe it is one of those dogs that give comfort, idk.::
So maybe it's a service dog, just not the kind of service dog you assume all service dogs to be. Or maybe it's a service dog that she hasn't been keeping up on the training for...you can't just train a service dog one time and expect that for as long as it lives it will behave that way without further training. There's a big difference between "this service dog was really poorly behaving" and "this wasn't a service dog because no service dog acts like that".
Or maybe it really is a service dog and is much smarter than you think. Maybe it smelled the horsemeat she was about to eat and was trying to alert her to stop.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 27, 2015 10:04:02 GMT -5
No. It was just a topic to talk about. People complain about kids howling in a restaurant. I complained about a dog howling in McDonalds. I'd rather listen to a dog howl than a kid howl any day of the week. Definitely. I mean at least you can kick the dog to make it stop...
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jul 27, 2015 10:06:37 GMT -5
It also might be a service dog in training. The dogs have to learn to ignore outside stimulation somehow. I don't see/notice service dogs around here much but I have seem some with Service Dog in Training signs. I admit, I use them as a training tool too. I point them out to my kids, ID the sign and explain why they can't go up and pet that particular dog.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 27, 2015 10:10:19 GMT -5
No. It was just a topic to talk about. People complain about kids howling in a restaurant. I complained about a dog howling in McDonalds. I'd rather listen to a dog howl than a kid howl any day of the week. they're both irritating.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 10:13:00 GMT -5
It was not a service dog. Dogs that give comfort are a different legal category then service dogs. It was a dog in a service dog vest. It was not a well behaved dog.
I did not realize this would be a contentious issue.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 27, 2015 10:13:25 GMT -5
Maybe the dog was howling to mourn his fallen friends who were being eaten right in front of him.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 27, 2015 10:21:49 GMT -5
It was not a service dog. Dogs that give comfort are a different legal category then service dogs. It was a dog in a service dog vest. It was not a well behaved dog. I did not realize this would be a contentious issue. I think the contention is in you deciding that because a dog doesn't behave the way you expect it to, that it must not be a service dog. Dogs that give comfort are only sometimes a different legal category, depending on the nature of them. Service animals must be trained to do a specific task, that's basically the legal definition. A dog can't just "exist" and happen to be owned by someone with a problem. For example, if a dog is trained to help calm someone down who has an anxiety disorder when they have an anxiety attack then it is a service dog. If a dog is simply comforting in general then it is not. It must be trained to specifically do something. What leads you to say it wasn't a service dog other than the fact that you think it is poorly behaved? Is your assertion that every service dog on the planet is well behaved at all times? It just kind of comes across akin to saying someone using a handicap placard isn't handicapped because you looked at them and they don't look handicapped.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jul 27, 2015 10:25:44 GMT -5
Every dog in Seattle is a "service/comfort dog". It's really not regulated properly. I don't usually mind but sometimes I get tired of dogs being on the bus, in restaurants, and in the grocery stores. I have 3 dogs at my own, and usually they stay HOME unless we are enjoying the outside.
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Jul 27, 2015 10:26:07 GMT -5
Thanks hoops, we have a handicap placard for my DH and we have a license plate that says "disabled veteran". Both the placard and the license plate allow us to use handicap parking places.
If anyone was to see DH getting out of the vehicle, no one would have any idea of his problems and would likely wonder why we have the placard and the plate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 10:29:04 GMT -5
It was not a service dog. Dogs that give comfort are a different legal category then service dogs. It was a dog in a service dog vest. It was not a well behaved dog. I did not realize this would be a contentious issue. I think the contention is in you deciding that because a dog doesn't behave the way you expect it to, that it must not be a service dog. Dogs that give comfort are only sometimes a different legal category, depending on the nature of them. Service animals must be trained to do a specific task, that's basically the legal definition. A dog can't just "exist" and happen to be owned by someone with a problem. For example, if a dog is trained to help calm someone down who has an anxiety disorder when they have an anxiety attack then it is a service dog. If a dog is simply comforting in general then it is not. It must be trained to specifically do something. What leads you to say it wasn't a service dog other than the fact that you think it is poorly behaved? Is your assertion that every service dog on the planet is well behaved at all times? It just kind of comes across akin to saying someone using a handicap placard isn't handicapped because you looked at them and they don't look handicapped. Can you imagine a scenario where you see a dog and know that it is not a service dog? Some things are obvious. Some scams are obvious. Putting a "service dog" vest on your dog so you can take it into McDonalds is kind of a scam, imo. I guess it could have been a real service dog in the same sense that the Nigerian prince really does need me to help get his money out of Nigeria.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 10:33:37 GMT -5
Reminds me of the time my buddy was wasted and got us all kicked out of a hotel after our other buddy's bachelor party because he refused to stop petting a service dog.
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bobosensei
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Post by bobosensei on Jul 27, 2015 10:34:55 GMT -5
It was not a service dog. Dogs that give comfort are a different legal category then service dogs. It was a dog in a service dog vest. It was not a well behaved dog. I did not realize this would be a contentious issue. This is how you get pages of replies on a topic as long as you keep responding here. I agree with you BTW. I really hate to see people sneaking in dogs that are clearly not service animals to get around rules. The thing is a business can't ask to see any proof about a service dog, but you can buy those dog vests online. So then any yahoo can run around with their dog all day long. And eventually it is going to create issues for people with legitimate needs.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 27, 2015 10:36:53 GMT -5
::Can you imagine a scenario where you see a dog and know that it is not a service dog? Some things are obvious. Some scams are obvious. Putting a "service dog" vest on your dog so you can take it into McDonalds is kind of a scam, imo.::
No, I can't. I can't imagine a scenario where I see a dog and just know the dog's life story and whether at any time it has gone through one of many trainings.
::I guess it could have been a real service dog in the same sense that the Nigerian prince really does need me to help get his money out of Nigeria.::
It would only be in the same sense if there were literally millions of legitimate cases where Nigerian princes needed help to get money out of Nigeria, and you decided which ones were or weren't legitimate based on the font used. Or unless you think all animals labeled as service animals are fraudulent. You're taking a scenario which is legitimate in millions of cases, and simply claiming you can spot a fake by looking at it because...well because you say so. That's massively different from claiming that all/nearly all of a scenario are fraudulent (as in the case of the Nigerian prince).
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jul 27, 2015 10:37:27 GMT -5
I think that this question even came up is an indication that many people claim their pet as a service animal when it is not true. Simply put, there are a lot of people playing the system.
I agree with Hickle that there is no way that dog was truly a service animal. A trainer would not put a service animal in training into a situation where they were so overstimulated that they began to bark and howl. The animal would have been trained to the point where the animal's behavior was better controlled before the animal was taken into a public place.
In my mind, the need for a service animal or a comfort animal should be certified by a doctor, physical/occupational therapist, or psychologist, and that need should be documented by something similar to a driver's license.
Or, pets should be allowed into public places, as they are in Europe. This would allow business operators to remove customers with unruly pets, rather than having the inappropriate pet behavior protected under laws intended to protect the rights of the disabled, rather than simply the self important.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 27, 2015 10:37:50 GMT -5
I do get what you are saying, hickle. I have no doubt that there are those who try to scam the service dog system. It could very well have been a person just throwing a vest on the dog so she could take it into the restaurant. It does seem like abnormal behavior for a service dog, since you observed the lady wasn't having a seizure or something. It could also be that it was a true service dog and was maybe just introduced to a busy restaurant and was on sensory overload. Could have been several things and yes, one of those things could be a scam.
The problem arises when people try to scam the system just like hiring disabled people at Disney to get through the lines faster. New policies have to be adopted to sort out the scammers and the people who are truly put out are those who were honestly in need.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 27, 2015 10:38:08 GMT -5
Every service dog that I've ever seen was extremely well behaved. I believe Hickle when he says that it was an imposter service dog.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Jul 27, 2015 10:38:11 GMT -5
I'd rather listen to a dog howl than a kid howl any day of the week. Definitely. I mean at least you can kick the dog to make it stop... I'd kick a child before I'd kick a dog.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 27, 2015 10:39:28 GMT -5
Definitely. I mean at least you can kick the dog to make it stop... I'd kick a child before I'd kick a dog. I'd kick a person who would kick a dog before I'd kick a dog.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Jul 27, 2015 10:40:01 GMT -5
< Abby steps up on her soap box>
Service dogs are a huge issue for me as a dog person. The system is completely flawed. Service dogs provide a great need and do wonderful work, but there is no regulation of them. Meaning that anyone can take a dog anywhere and say it's a service dog and no one is allowed question it (thanks ADA) - which has led to abuse.
There are a group of service dogs that go through extensive training (guide dogs and autism dogs come to mind) but there is a whole subset of dogs who are acting as service dogs, but have no training to be in public. Service dogs should be bomb proof. If your dog happens to recognize that you are having a diabetic issue- great. But that dog should be required to have training before he can be used as such in public. I was at a play a while ago, and someone had their little terrier in there. That dog freaked out every time the audience started clapping. He had no right to be there, and I don't care what her issue may have been.
I'd like to see them licensed, with official (state, or county issued) jackets that can't be bought on the internet.
There are too many people that just want to be able to take their dog wherever they go, and it makes it harder for those who truly need them. There was an issue here with dogs on a bus. One of them bit a passenger. Turns out there were three dogs on the bus, and not one was an actual service dog.
Until we start regulating them (really shouldn't be hard since dogs already have to be liscensed, you just have to certifify the training process and track it), we will continue to have abuse of the system.
And it really ticks me off when I go to the grocery store and see someone with a dog in their purse.
I even have a friend who bought a trained show dog. She made the mistake of saying " now all I have to do is get her a jacket so I can take her wherever I want". Yep, she got the 30 minute lecture.
<Abby steps off her box before she gets a nose bleed from the high altitude.>
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Jul 27, 2015 10:40:23 GMT -5
I'd kick a child before I'd kick a dog. I'd kick a person who would kick a dog before I'd kick a dog.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jul 27, 2015 10:46:15 GMT -5
It was not a service dog. Dogs that give comfort are a different legal category then service dogs. It was a dog in a service dog vest. It was not a well behaved dog. I did not realize this would be a contentious issue. ANY thread has the potential to become "contentious" (I'm not sure we've reached contentious here in this thread, yet). It's nothing personal. It's just people expressing their opinions. Opinions are like belly buttons -- everyone has one. I personally believe the freedom folks have here to express their opinion is one of the features that make these boards so appealing. Treat other peoples' replies as just that -- other peoples' replies. No one is trying to convert anyone else. We're all just sharing ideas/information/advice/opinions/etc. You are free to take what works for or helps you and dismiss everything else as so many wasted electrons. JMHO (LOL). YMMV.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 27, 2015 10:48:56 GMT -5
I don't understand all the kid hatred. I can see if the kid's like 4-5 and being a huge PITA, but a little 1-2 year old just squeaking and playing? How is that kid deserving of being kicked?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 27, 2015 10:48:59 GMT -5
::Service dogs are a huge issue for me as a dog person. The system is completely flawed. Service dogs provide a great need and do wonderful work, but there is no regulation of them. Meaning that anyone can take a dog anywhere and say it's a service dog and no one is allowed question it (thanks ADA) - which has led to abuse.::
They can question it, they just can't question it the way most of us would like it to be to prevent fraud. It's pretty similar to the issue of people with handicap placards. You can ask them questions, but you can't really ask them what you'd want to ask them to really figure out if they are handicapped or not.
::There are a group of service dogs that go through extensive training (guide dogs and autism dogs come to mind) but there is a whole subset of dogs who are acting as service dogs, but have no training to be in public. Service dogs should be bomb proof. ::
This is why I find it very unlikely if not impossible to determine whether a dog is a service dog based on how it acts. To be a legitimate service dog all I have to do is train a dog to calm me down whenever I experience a PTSD episode. The dog doesn't have to be housebroken, well behaved, non-aggressive, or anything else. It only has to be trained to do that one thing. People hear the term "service dog" and start thinking a well behaved german shepherd leading a blind person around with perfect social interactions. I don't think people realize how low of a hurdle it is to be a legitimate service dog.
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