happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 19, 2015 11:29:13 GMT -5
In places like Iraq and Syria almost everyone is armed.
Maybe it is time to ponder whether we are less like France and Canada, and more like Iraq and Syria?
I would like to be able to put mines in my yard. The neighbor's dog keeps crapping in it. So I vote for being more like Iraq and Syria.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 19, 2015 11:33:34 GMT -5
Mental illness or not, this guy is a RACIST. His FRIEND said he was a racist. I think that pretty much says it all. Why can't we stop excusing horrible behaviour with "mental illness" and deal with it appropriately? Being a racist doesn't make you willing to walk into a room and slaughter a bunch of strangers. His racist thoughts made him direct his energies towards killing black people, but if he wasn't racist, he would have killed a room full of kids, or a theater full of strangers, or random students on a campus. Unless you're at war and firing on an enemy, it's really hard to kill strangers, unless you have a MI that circumvents your rational thoughts.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 19, 2015 12:18:35 GMT -5
Mental illness or not, this guy is a RACIST. His FRIEND said he was a racist. I think that pretty much says it all. Why can't we stop excusing horrible behaviour with "mental illness" and deal with it appropriately? Being a racist doesn't make you willing to walk into a room and slaughter a bunch of strangers. His racist thoughts made him direct his energies towards killing black people, but if he wasn't racist, he would have killed a room full of kids, or a theater full of strangers, or random students on a campus. Unless you're at war and firing on an enemy, it's really hard to kill strangers, unless you have a MI that circumvents your rational thoughts. M1 is passe..only eight rounds..takes some seconds to reload and release bolt....much more effective weapons today...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 13:43:37 GMT -5
That's because you are misunderstanding the equation. More guns isn't the solution to "rampant gun crime", More guns is the solution to the question of "How do we allow our citizens to protect themselves when we KNOW that there are guns out there that can be used against them AND we know that the Police cannot be everywhere all the time?" That in a nut shell is basically what the premise of this thread I put up is all about. I threw that out because I am having second thoughts because of violent actions like this one in S Carolina..Connecticut..Boston..{ I realize a armed populace would not have helped in that situation..two home made bombs placed..plenty of armed law enforcement in area..} and other such doings.. If there were more armed citizens..when things like this happen, while no guarantee of salvation, possible there might be actions taken that just might mitigate the casualties...There is no guarantee though ,..In military combat..one of the hardest things to guarantee is to have troops return fire ...go on the offensive..and those young folks have gone through intensive training..much more then any civiliens would go through..That's what so many squad / fire team leaders jobs turned out to be..getting their people to expose their position ..return fire besides advance under fire..especially new troops..why so many became casualties themselves.. big responsibility . However , with all that said...if some one has been trained..kept it up...if found in such a violent situation...rather then just take it..possible offensive action may/ might be taken , especially if self or family and friends were threatened..as said above..Police can't be everywhere all the time... I agree. The police can't be everywhere all the time, nor can a concealed carry, law abiding citizen. I just feel that nationwide there should be a continued right for a law abiding citizen to be able to protect himself from harm using deadly force if necessary (firearms). In effect we would help police ourselves. This in itself, if the laws covering deadly force are equal everywhere, would be a deterrent to the 15 minutes of fame, massacres, that seem to happen more often than not, in places where the chances of running into armed opposition to deadly crime is low. So far, these so called gun free safety zones seem to attract these mentally unstable people. Being unstable doesn't mean stupid. They pick and choose where to do their killing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 13:49:51 GMT -5
Mental illness or not, this guy is a RACIST. His FRIEND said he was a racist. I think that pretty much says it all. Why can't we stop excusing horrible behaviour with "mental illness" and deal with it appropriately? Being a racist doesn't make you willing to walk into a room and slaughter a bunch of strangers. His racist thoughts made him direct his energies towards killing black people, but if he wasn't racist, he would have killed a room full of kids, or a theater full of strangers, or random students on a campus. Unless you're at war and firing on an enemy, it's really hard to kill strangers, unless you have a MI that circumvents your rational thoughts. I hope you noticed all the places you listed are the mostly gun restricted areas. Does that tell you anything about gun control, and the reason these mentally unstable people choose those venues ?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 19, 2015 14:02:02 GMT -5
Being a racist doesn't make you willing to walk into a room and slaughter a bunch of strangers. His racist thoughts made him direct his energies towards killing black people, but if he wasn't racist, he would have killed a room full of kids, or a theater full of strangers, or random students on a campus. Unless you're at war and firing on an enemy, it's really hard to kill strangers, unless you have a MI that circumvents your rational thoughts. I hope you noticed all the places you listed are the mostly gun restricted areas. Does that tell you anything about gun control, and the reason these mentally unstable people choose those venues ? What it tells me is it's too damn easy for a mentally unstable person to get hold of a gun. If we're at the point we have to arm ourselves so we can safely attend church prayer groups I think we need to declare our society a failure.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 15:09:37 GMT -5
In places like Iraq and Syria almost everyone is armed.
Maybe it is time to ponder whether we are less like France and Canada, and more like Iraq and Syria?
is that really true? I think a big part of the violence there might be civil war, also.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 15:15:28 GMT -5
I hope you noticed all the places you listed are the mostly gun restricted areas. Does that tell you anything about gun control, and the reason these mentally unstable people choose those venues ? What it tells me is it's too damn easy for a mentally unstable person to get hold of a gun. If we're at the point we have to arm ourselves so we can safely attend church prayer groups I think we need to declare our society a failure. A plane could crash onto a church. Some mentally ill guy attacked a church. Bad things sometimes happen. Violence like this happens less now then in past times. We are a safer country now then we have been. Bad shit sometimes is going to happen though. With a gun or maybe with a car at a parade.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 19, 2015 15:21:12 GMT -5
Just bc none of the racists that you know killed anyone, doesn't mean there aren't who did or would. Along with the racists that kill, there are pacifists who kill, God-fearing people who kill, non-religious, open minded people, you name it. Being racist doesn't mean you are any more or less likely kill than anyone else. I think the label of racist is an indicator of who you will kill, not if you will.My point was that we can't keep blaming mental illness for all the evil things people do. This guy was an angry racist and this was a hate crime and it should be handled as such. There are plenty of people who suffer with all kinds of mental illnesses that are having a very hard time and I think it's insulting to them. Agree with bolded part completely.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 19, 2015 15:23:51 GMT -5
Mental illness or not, this guy is a RACIST. His FRIEND said he was a racist. I think that pretty much says it all. Why can't we stop excusing horrible behaviour with "mental illness" and deal with it appropriately? Being a racist doesn't make you willing to walk into a room and slaughter a bunch of strangers. His racist thoughts made him direct his energies towards killing black people, but if he wasn't racist, he would have killed a room full of kids, or a theater full of strangers, or random students on a campus. Unless you're at war and firing on an enemy, it's really hard to kill strangers, unless you have a MI that circumvents your rational thoughts.
I don't agree at all. There are plenty of people who kill in a moment of passion that have nothing mentally wrong with them. There are also some evil people who kill of all kinds of reasons. Just bc someone is filled with rage, doesn't make them mentally ill. And you really have no basis for saying that he would kill someone else.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 19, 2015 15:24:12 GMT -5
... I think a big part of the violence there might be civil war, also. I think an argument could be made that a big part of the violence here might be economic civil war.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 15:30:30 GMT -5
Being a racist doesn't make you willing to walk into a room and slaughter a bunch of strangers. His racist thoughts made him direct his energies towards killing black people, but if he wasn't racist, he would have killed a room full of kids, or a theater full of strangers, or random students on a campus. Unless you're at war and firing on an enemy, it's really hard to kill strangers, unless you have a MI that circumvents your rational thoughts.
I don't agree at all. There are plenty of people who kill in a moment of passion that have nothing mentally wrong with them. There are also some evil people who kill of all kinds of reasons. Just bc someone is filled with rage, doesn't make them mentally ill. And you really have no basis for saying that he would kill someone else. I agree that some people are just evil. I don't think it's always what I consider to be a mental illness. They're just bad people.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 15:34:13 GMT -5
Being a racist doesn't make you willing to walk into a room and slaughter a bunch of strangers. His racist thoughts made him direct his energies towards killing black people, but if he wasn't racist, he would have killed a room full of kids, or a theater full of strangers, or random students on a campus. Unless you're at war and firing on an enemy, it's really hard to kill strangers, unless you have a MI that circumvents your rational thoughts.
I don't agree at all. There are plenty of people who kill in a moment of passion that have nothing mentally wrong with them. There are also some evil people who kill of all kinds of reasons. Just bc someone is filled with rage, doesn't make them mentally ill. And you really have no basis for saying that he would kill someone else. I think when people say "mental ill" they are including people with sociopathic or psychopathic problems, so that would cover the evil people you mention. What is your point? Do you think he killed these people because he was a racist and disagree that mental illness had any thing to do with it?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 19, 2015 16:34:00 GMT -5
I don't agree at all. There are plenty of people who kill in a moment of passion that have nothing mentally wrong with them. There are also some evil people who kill of all kinds of reasons. Just bc someone is filled with rage, doesn't make them mentally ill. And you really have no basis for saying that he would kill someone else. I think when people say "mental ill" they are including people with sociopathic or psychopathic problems, so that would cover the evil people you mention. What is your point? Do you think he killed these people because he was a racist and disagree that mental illness had any thing to do with it?Yep. I think he is a vicious asshole who didn't like black people and decided to kill them. This was a textbook hate crime. And I think it's insulting to people who have real mental health illness to put him in the same camp as them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 16:37:49 GMT -5
I think when people say "mental ill" they are including people with sociopathic or psychopathic problems, so that would cover the evil people you mention. What is your point? Do you think he killed these people because he was a racist and disagree that mental illness had any thing to do with it?Yep. I think he is a vicious asshole who didn't like black people and decided to kill them. This was a textbook hate crime. And I think it's insulting to people who have real mental health illness to put him in the same camp as them. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy Do you not think psychopathy is a mental illness.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 19, 2015 16:44:31 GMT -5
Yep. I think he is a vicious asshole who didn't like black people and decided to kill them. This was a textbook hate crime. And I think it's insulting to people who have real mental health illness to put him in the same camp as them. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy Do you not think psychopathy is a mental illness. Well, I am sure it is since the doctors will tell me it is. However, I don't think this guy fits that description. He didn't go on a random shooting spree, he specifically targeted a group of people who he didn't like and didn't think should exist. If that's not a hate crime, I don't know what is
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 16:51:08 GMT -5
Well, I am sure it is since the doctors will tell me it is. However, I don't think this guy fits that description. He didn't go on a random shooting spree, he specifically targeted a group of people who he didn't like and didn't think should exist. If that's not a hate crime, I don't know what is Is it important that it be defined as a "hate crime" as opposed to just "crime"? He did something terrible no matter the reason.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 19, 2015 16:54:54 GMT -5
Yes, bc I think there is an additional penalty or something.
I also think it's important bc this is going to be an event that will be remembered for a long time and I think it's important for people to remember the true motive behind this horrible massacre.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 19, 2015 16:59:42 GMT -5
Yes, bc I think there is an additional penalty or something. I also think it's important bc this is going to be an event that will be remembered for a long time and I think it's important for people to remember the true motive behind this horrible massacre. It is a hate crime and there is additional penalty. The problem in trying him in South Carolina courts, where he will have to be tried, is that South Carolina (and 4 other states) have no hate crime laws. So South Carolina cannot charge him with a hate crime. I don't know if the guy can be tried in federal court where hate crimes are recognized.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 17:11:37 GMT -5
Yes, bc I think there is an additional penalty or something. I also think it's important bc this is going to be an event that will be remembered for a long time and I think it's important for people to remember the true motive behind this horrible massacre. Should it be against the law to be a racist? Why should there be a difference between killing a group of people because of money and killing a group of people because of the color of their skin? Both are horrible crimes. I don't think we know the true motives behind this. You think it is racist. I think the guy was mental. I don't really know much about it though. I read somewhere, some guy think psychoactive drugs are partially to blame. I know the drug companies say there can be terrible side affects to their drugs. I don't think we know what was in the guy's head now.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 19, 2015 17:52:33 GMT -5
Yes, bc I think there is an additional penalty or something. I also think it's important bc this is going to be an event that will be remembered for a long time and I think it's important for people to remember the true motive behind this horrible massacre. Should it be against the law to be a racist? Why should there be a difference between killing a group of people because of money and killing a group of people because of the color of their skin? Both are horrible crimes. I don't think we know the true motives behind this. You think it is racist. I think the guy was mental. I don't really know much about it though. I read somewhere, some guy think psychoactive drugs are partially to blame. I know the drug companies say there can be terrible side affects to their drugs. I don't think we know what was in the guy's head now. No, I don't think it should be against the law to be a racist. Heck, I've been accused of being one on this board, so hopefully, I won't be going to jail any time soon. I will be honest and will tell you that I need to think about your second question. The reason *I* said he was a racist was bc his best friend said that in an interview on the news. Another reason *I* said he was a racist bc he was quoted saying that "black people are taking over America and he was going to start a civil war".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 17:55:20 GMT -5
Yes, bc I think there is an additional penalty or something. I also think it's important bc this is going to be an event that will be remembered for a long time and I think it's important for people to remember the true motive behind this horrible massacre. Should it be against the law to be a racist? Why should there be a difference between killing a group of people because of money and killing a group of people because of the color of their skin? Both are horrible crimes. I don't think we know the true motives behind this. You think it is racist. I think the guy was mental. I don't really know much about it though. I read somewhere, some guy think psychoactive drugs are partially to blame. I know the drug companies say there can be terrible side affects to their drugs. I don't think we know what was in the guy's head now. This wasn't directed to me, but I don't think it should be against the law to be a racist. People think how they think and feel how they feel. How their thoughts and feeling affect their actions determines whether it's a problem that needs to be addressed imo. Whatever the motive, people that go into places and shoot up innocent people just because they can need to be permanently removed from society. I don't care if they're evil or mentally ill, they've shown that they're dangerous and they don't need an opportunity to harm anyone else. I'm all for treating our mentally ill citizens, but I don't want cold blooded murderers to ever walk around freely again or in some cases, even live. Maybe that makes me a terrible person if the excuse is mental illness, but that's how I feel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 18:46:08 GMT -5
On a somewhat related note... my 75+ year old mother just got her CC Permit THIS YEAR! (I gave her and her husband a pre-paid "card" the class for it as an Anniversary Present, late last year. They took the class this Spring)
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 19, 2015 19:18:20 GMT -5
Yes, bc I think there is an additional penalty or something. I also think it's important bc this is going to be an event that will be remembered for a long time and I think it's important for people to remember the true motive behind this horrible massacre. It is a hate crime and there is additional penalty. The problem in trying him in South Carolina courts, where he will have to be tried, is that South Carolina (and 4 other states) have no hate crime laws. So South Carolina cannot charge him with a hate crime. I don't know if the guy can be tried in federal court where hate crimes are recognized. The thing is, from a legal standpoint, does it matter?
He's either going to get life in prison or the death penalty whether it's a hate crime or not. Can't get harsher penalties than those. Plus, truth be told, he's probably more likely to get executed under South Carolina laws than under federal laws. Federal executions are rare. There's still debate as to whether the Boston marathon bomber will really be executed.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 19, 2015 19:24:09 GMT -5
It is a hate crime and there is additional penalty. The problem in trying him in South Carolina courts, where he will have to be tried, is that South Carolina (and 4 other states) have no hate crime laws. So South Carolina cannot charge him with a hate crime. I don't know if the guy can be tried in federal court where hate crimes are recognized. The thing is, from a legal standpoint, does it matter?
He's either going to get life in prison or the death penalty whether it's a hate crime or not. Can't get harsher penalties than those. Plus, truth be told, he's probably more likely to get executed under South Carolina laws than under federal laws. Federal executions are rare. There's still debate as to whether the Boston marathon bomber will really be executed.
Is this particular case, it probably does not matter what with the number of deaths and injuries But it should be classified a hate crime for statistical purposes. But had he only injured people, and fewer in number, hate crime penalties could have increased his punishment in another state with hste crime laws but not South Carolina.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 19, 2015 19:25:26 GMT -5
The thing is, from a legal standpoint, does it matter?
He's either going to get life in prison or the death penalty whether it's a hate crime or not. Can't get harsher penalties than those. Plus, truth be told, he's probably more likely to get executed under South Carolina laws than under federal laws. Federal executions are rare. There's still debate as to whether the Boston marathon bomber will really be executed.
Is this particular case, it porbably does not matter what with the number of deaths. How so? I'm genuinely curious. The only way I see it might make a difference is between execution or life in prison. But he'd likely still get executed even if it wasn't designated a hate crime.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 19, 2015 19:36:57 GMT -5
Is this particular case, it porbably does not matter what with the number of deaths. How so? I'm genuinely curious. The only way I see it might make a difference is between execution or life in prison. But he'd likely still get executed even if it wasn't designated a hate crime.
I said it probably does not matter what with the number of deaths and it occured in South Carolina. There are only two punishments that should and will be considered in this case: life withoutvthe possibility of parole and the death penalty. For statistical purposes, it should be classified federally as a hate crime as a hatred of class of people was his only motive.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 19, 2015 20:15:55 GMT -5
Put him in general popp and tell the others what he did - no fuss no muss.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2015 20:33:01 GMT -5
Put him in general popp and tell the others what he did - no fuss no muss. Are you okay with the murder of people you think are bad? Is that what you are suggesting should happen?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 19, 2015 20:42:02 GMT -5
Something to think about.....
In an analysis of FBI and other federal government data, the non-profit Violence Policy Center said Americans are far more likely to hurt themselves or others when handling a lethal weapon. In 2012, it said, only 259 “justifiable homicides” involving a private citizen were reported, compared to 8,342 criminal homicides committed with a gun.
Put another way, for every justifiable homicide involving a gun, 32 criminal homicides carried out with a firearm occurred. And that does not take into account “tens of thousands” of gun-related suicides and unintentional shootings.
The influential National Rifle Association contends that “guns are necessary for self-defence,” said Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center in Washington.
“But this gun industry propaganda has no basis in fact,” he said in a statement.
“In fact, in a nation of more than 300 million firearms, it is striking how rarely guns are used in self-defense.”
www.rawstory.com/2015/06/guns-rarely-used-for-self-defense-in-us-there-are-32-criminal-homicides-for-every-1-justifiable-shooting/
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