mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 18, 2015 10:47:07 GMT -5
Sheesh! Would you give this guy a .45 pistol for his birthday? His father did. This is taken with snow on the ground so it's not related to this incident. That's one disturbed-looking young man! Article with Picture
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 18, 2015 10:50:08 GMT -5
Sheesh! Would you give this guy a .45 pistol for his birthday? His father did. This is taken with snow on the ground so it's not related to this incident. That's one disturbed-looking young man! Article with PictureI have to wonder where he learned his hatred for black people.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 18, 2015 10:53:28 GMT -5
Sheesh! Would you give this guy a .45 pistol for his birthday? His father did. This is taken with snow on the ground so it's not related to this incident. That's one disturbed-looking young man! Article with PictureI have to wonder where he learned his hatred for black people. No clue. Family, apparently, is from Lexington (near Columbia). The picture in the linked article looks like somebody who hates everybody, including himself.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jun 18, 2015 11:09:04 GMT -5
Sheesh! Would you give this guy a .45 pistol for his birthday? His father did. This is taken with snow on the ground so it's not related to this incident. That's one disturbed-looking young man! Article with PictureWhat you can't see in that image are the flags sewn onto the black jacket that he was wearing in the photo from his facebook page. He's got the flags of Rhodesia and aparteid-era South Africa sewn onto his jacket. ETA: It takes a bit of zeal to find replicas of flags that were hauled down from poles before one was born.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 11:17:05 GMT -5
Sheesh! Would you give this guy a .45 pistol for his birthday? His father did. This is taken with snow on the ground so it's not related to this incident. That's one disturbed-looking young man! Article with PictureNo article, just picture when I click on link.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 18, 2015 11:19:16 GMT -5
Sheesh! Would you give this guy a .45 pistol for his birthday? His father did. This is taken with snow on the ground so it's not related to this incident. That's one disturbed-looking young man! Article with PictureNo article, just picture when I click on link. Ahh. Thanks, Rockit. The article itself is just repeating what other articles posted have already said. This was just the only one I saw that had this particular picture.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 11:26:40 GMT -5
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jun 18, 2015 11:36:18 GMT -5
The above is from the OP (including thread title). Is the OP suggesting that MORE people should be allowed to carry firearms if they want to?
Aren't there enough crazies running around the US killing people with easily obtained weapons as it is?
Here in Canada our gun laws and possession of a weapon are much tighter. Our crime rate (armed robberies, etc), and deaths caused by shootings is also much lower.
There are a lot more hoops to jump through in order to obtain/possess a weapon. (I know what it takes, since DH and I both had rifles and handguns used for competitive target shooting, etc).
Yes, there are guns available the black market here, but again that number is also much lower.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 18, 2015 11:49:29 GMT -5
One of his prior arrests was for drug abuse, according to arrest records. The other was for trespassing.
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Post by Opti on Jun 18, 2015 11:51:56 GMT -5
Dezi, there's a reason these nuts choose churches. It has been this way likely since guns and churches coexisted.
White guy, goes to kill black people, and chooses a black church. Maybe it is the religious rhetoric that needs to be dialed down, not more guns. MO. Or MOO as Mmhmm would say.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 18, 2015 11:56:27 GMT -5
... It has to be a voluntary situation but I am thinking a loosening of the ability to get permits to carry...possible pass some exam , safety course... ... Current state law only grants the ability to carry a concealed handgun after paying the $50 fee and completing a mandated training course. www.guns.com/2015/04/27/south-carolina-house-overwhelmingly-passes-constitutional-carry/ Sounds like you are proposing what is already the current state law. There are many States where it is very easy to get a concealed or even in some cases a open permit..then there are many where it is just about impossible...example..Massachusetts, Connectiicut...New York... Don't misunderstand me ..I am not one who is in a macho mood on this..in fact for myself..at this stage of my life and age I would not be one looking for a carry permit..not against the second amendent .. have weapon at home....and I am sorry to say have been in situations where I have used weapons against others..know the results and after affects of such usage..BUT ...and it is only something I brought up as a discussion point..but there seems to be much to many idiots out there with these weapons who seem to go on these rampages ...also , as we see overseas ..there are terrorist groups who are aiming destruction on innocents daily..I believe it is only a matter of time before we see that same type of crazyness here..especially since it seems we as a country are going to be in action against these groups ...for them to respond in kind..just a matter of time IMHO...but again..just for discussion I posted the thoughts...
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jun 18, 2015 11:56:30 GMT -5
His eyes look dead like so many of the other mass murdering scum. Yes, his eyes look dead but the photo is from a prior arrest. Note the charge listed on the bottom line and the date listed next to the mug shot.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 18, 2015 11:57:03 GMT -5
Here again, another crazy that has been in the court system for prior offenses. Why can't they start locking crazy down when they see it? It is like the program is to keep letting them escalate the crazy behavior until they kill someone; then it will be dealt with. Right down to the multi-million dollar legal proceedings. How about we redirect that funding to mandatory treatment programs? As heinous as this is, I would not want to live in a society that would lock people up, who have committed no crime, simply because they have a chemical imbalance in their brain. What would be next, incarceration for anyone who doesn't think like you? Voluntary treatment programs, yes. Mandatory anything without a serious offense, no. According to what I found his prior offenses were drug crimes and trespassing. Yep, let's lock anyone with any of that away... news.yahoo.com/suspected-south-carolina-shooter-had-arrest-record-court-145804026.html
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 18, 2015 12:00:27 GMT -5
The above is from the OP (including thread title). Is the OP suggesting that MORE people should be allowed to carry firearms if they want to?
Aren't there enough crazies running around the US killing people with easily obtained weapons as it is?
Here in Canada our gun laws and possession of a weapon are much tighter. Our crime rate (armed robberies, etc), and deaths caused by shootings is also much lower.
There are a lot more hoops to jump through in order to obtain/possess a weapon. (I know what it takes, since DH and I both had rifles and handguns used for competitive target shooting, etc).
Yes, there are guns available the black market here, but again that number is also much lower. I don't get it, either. How can the solution to rampant gun crime be more guns?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 18, 2015 12:02:56 GMT -5
Dezi, there's a reason these nuts choose churches. It has been this way likely since guns and churches coexisted.
White guy, goes to kill black people, and chooses a black church. Maybe it is the religious rhetoric that needs to be dialed down, not more guns. MO. Or MOO as Mmhmm would say. My guess is that he chose a church because he knew there would be a congregation of Black people - whom he clearly blames for some problem - that were, most likely, unarmed and unable to fight back. What it has to do with "religious rhetoric that needs to be dialed down" is a mystery to me. He stated, according to an article: "He just said, 'I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country," Johnson said.
What does that have to do religion? Maybe there's something in another article I haven't read that says he spoke about religion also? That's certainly possible since I haven't read anything but some of the stuff posted here because it's hard for me to do at work.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 18, 2015 12:08:40 GMT -5
time to consider allowing people to carry firearms if they want too...It seems there is to much of this going on..As far as gun controls it has gone to far in my estimation for that to ne effective today...It's estimated that there are over 300 million firearms in the hands of civilens today...My feelings is that is just to hard a number to over come plus the country, right or wrong is gun happy...and it's not going to change. To expect the police to stop these actions before they happen is asking to much of them...they can't be everywhere when these events happen...To be available to be called and hope they arrive to apprehend and stop actions as they are happening..ok..but till they arrive to take charge..it may have to be left to the civilens in the area of the happening. That doesn't mean everyone should have to be a carrier of a weapon. It has to be a voluntary situation but I am thinking a loosening of the ability to get permits to carry...possible pass some exam , safety course...but not make it so hard to get a permit as some states make it today might be the answer. www.courant.com/nation-world/ct-charleston-shooting-20150617-story.html"9 people, including state senator, fatally shot at church in Charleston, S.C"To be honest, I would not expect the members of the Bible study group to be "packing" while in Bible study. Myself, I would never consider carrying a weapon into any house of worship. Is it true he actually sat in the church for an hour before he attacked? Understand what you are saying but if you step back a moment and think of why you might be one who has decided to get a permit to carry..{ never said it is for everyone..we are not in the military where it is SOP to be armed in certain situations or civilien police where many departments want officers armed on duty..off duty..}..a church , a school..most anywhere where there is no security against such happenings,..why not carry.... Where there is screening ..court houses , office buildings..government buildings..Ok, there ..you don't carry..or surrender your weapons..[check in ]..but elsewhere , no security...I see no problem of discreetly carrying in church...school etc..
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 18, 2015 12:15:29 GMT -5
@sroo4 Less violent crime in Canada according to the article you linked: They also have an active, country wide Mental Health support initiative. A far cry from the US 'head in the sand' approach that has been going on since Reagan administration (I think it was that administration that eradicated mental health institutions, but I could be wrong - somewhere around that time frame they started shutting down institutions and changing commitment rules to make it much harder to get people into treatment forcibly) If we backed out the drug gang shootings in the big cities, I think we probably hold up a lot better in the stats. I know that is probably a lame answer, but look at the Baltimore or Chicago shootings. Knock out the grug related shootings, and not nearly as bad. I'm sorry, but you just can't do that. It's like saying that if you don't count the obese people, the US is the leanest, meanest, fittest nation on earth. If you don't count the sick people, the US is the healthiest nation on earth. If you don't count the failures and drop-outs, the US is the most highly educated country on earth.
You have to own it...it's part of who you are.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jun 18, 2015 12:17:06 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that within a couple of hours we will learn that this kid - has been a messed-up kid for a long time
- has some sort of connection to Zimbabwe or South Africa or both (based on his name, appearance, the flags, what he said to Johnson, and how he received a firearm on his 21st B-day)
- got a hell of a lot more racist after a stint in jail.
His hate could have come from several different sources.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 18, 2015 12:19:25 GMT -5
Sheesh! Would you give this guy a .45 pistol for his birthday? His father did. This is taken with snow on the ground so it's not related to this incident. That's one disturbed-looking young man! Article with PictureI have to wonder where he learned his hatred for black people. His middle name is Storm. Like Stormfront? People usually learn hatred at home.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 18, 2015 12:29:36 GMT -5
I have to wonder where he learned his hatred for black people. His middle name is Storm. Like Stormfront? People usually learn hatred at home. Dylann Storm Roof. Probably hated his parents for that name.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 12:32:18 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but you just can't do that. It's like saying that if you don't count the obese people, the US is the leanest, meanest, fittest nation on earth. If you don't count the sick people, the US is the healthiest nation on earth. If you don't count the failures and drop-outs, the US is the most highly educated country on earth.
You have to own it...it's part of who you are. We will if you will.... See the stats I posted. Canada doesn't seem to have all the answers on this one. Even with their restrictive ways. Then you are misreading the data you posted yourself. Canada has significantly less homicide than US per the article linked.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 12:36:06 GMT -5
Here again, another crazy that has been in the court system for prior offenses. Why can't they start locking crazy down when they see it? It is like the program is to keep letting them escalate the crazy behavior until they kill someone; then it will be dealt with. Right down to the multi-million dollar legal proceedings. How about we redirect that funding to mandatory treatment programs? As heinous as this is, I would not want to live in a society that would lock people up, who have committed no crime, simply because they have a chemical imbalance in their brain. What would be next, incarceration for anyone who doesn't think like you? Voluntary treatment programs, yes. Mandatory anything without a serious offense, no. According to what I found his prior offenses were drug crimes and trespassing. Yep, let's lock anyone with any of that away... news.yahoo.com/suspected-south-carolina-shooter-had-arrest-record-court-145804026.htmlIf they are mentally unstable, commit their first crime, and refuse treatment/medication I do think they should be locked up. As soon as you commit the first crime & give the courts/police opportunity to intervene, if you are diagnosed with mental issues you need to comply with treatment. If you are non compliant with treatment or flat out refuse, then you are infringing on my rights. You want to stay crazy, then stay locked up. I have not tried to look at his prior offenses, but anyone with a sheet of criminal behavior has issues that need to be looked at closer.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 18, 2015 12:40:59 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but you just can't do that. It's like saying that if you don't count the obese people, the US is the leanest, meanest, fittest nation on earth. If you don't count the sick people, the US is the healthiest nation on earth. If you don't count the failures and drop-outs, the US is the most highly educated country on earth.
You have to own it...it's part of who you are. We will if you will.... See the stats I posted. Canada doesn't seem to have all the answers on this one. Even with their restrictive ways. Well, if you don't count our First Nations crimes or our Mafia, our crime rate would be closer to zero. Over half of the homicides in my city are organized crime-related. We'd still have far lower stats than you. See how that works? Or are you suggesting that only the US should be allowed to discount certain demographic groups?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 18, 2015 12:53:14 GMT -5
As heinous as this is, I would not want to live in a society that would lock people up, who have committed no crime, simply because they have a chemical imbalance in their brain. What would be next, incarceration for anyone who doesn't think like you? Voluntary treatment programs, yes. Mandatory anything without a serious offense, no. According to what I found his prior offenses were drug crimes and trespassing. Yep, let's lock anyone with any of that away... news.yahoo.com/suspected-south-carolina-shooter-had-arrest-record-court-145804026.htmlIf they are mentally unstable, commit their first crime, and refuse treatment/medication I do think they should be locked up. As soon as you commit the first crime & give the courts/police opportunity to intervene, if you are diagnosed with mental issues you need to comply with treatment. If you are non compliant with treatment or flat out refuse, then you are infringing on my rights. You want to stay crazy, then stay locked up. I have not tried to look at his prior offenses, but anyone with a sheet of criminal behavior has issues that need to be looked at closer. Please elaborate. How exactly does someone else refusing treatment infringe on YOUR rights? I cannot figure out how locking someone away without due process protects your rights. Or is due process only for people who think like you? What you may think is mentally stable may differ from mine. I do know we do NOT want to become a state where you have to submit yourself to government controlled evaluation and drugs in order to keep you freedom, because that is not freedom.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 13:09:56 GMT -5
The Captain they infringe on my rights because they continue to commit crimes and typically escalate in the severity. They can use due process, but right now courts refuse to incorporate any process to protect others against severely mentally unstable people. The guy that took on Dallas police in an armored vehicle had even threatened a judge's life prior to taking his final actions. They did nothing. So many opportunities for intervention were skipped. Clearly he was not capable of seeing how disordered his thoughts had become, but those that did see & stated he was a risk to them weren't respected. So it was his right to try to kill others? It has nothing to do with people thinking like me. Why should repeat criminals keep their freedom? Why shouldn't the state intervene and force people into treatment when they can't recognize or help themselves? Why should the victims of people with severe mental disorders (think stalkers) have to up-end their entire life to regain safety? The sick person then continues to violate other people's rights repeatedly with no true repercussions other than being tossed into jail for a few days here and there.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 18, 2015 13:33:29 GMT -5
Most mentally ill people do not commit crimes. You can't just lock them up for trespassing or panhandling or drugs. There are laws already in place where you can lock up someone who has committed a serious crime. However, you can't incarcerate someone simply for being mentally unstable and refusing to take medication. People have rights. What if you're depressed and don't want to take antidepressants? Do you want to be locked up? Forced to take meds? You can't do that to people. Well, you can if you live in a police state.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 18, 2015 13:35:28 GMT -5
@rockit - the vast majority of people with mental illnesses do not commit violent crimes. What we hear about are the exceptions, and we hear about them exactly because it is rare and thus newsworthy.
Of course no one has the right to kill others, but the opposite is true as well - no one has the right to lock someone away simply because they have a mental illness.
If someone is committing a crime then they should be punished for it, yes. But we should not punish someone simply because we think they may commit a crime.
Would you suggest we lock away everyone who has tried drugs? How about anyone who has taken a drink then gotten behind the wheel of a car - because we know some small percentage of that population will someday drink too much and kill someone?
I'd like to see people with mental illnesses get treatment, but the fact that they may be mentally ill does not give society the right to lock them up.
I hate to see this stuff as well, but it's always easy to see the "signs" after the fact. How many people present the same signs but don't act on them?
Those numbers may be higher than either one of us would be comfortable with.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 18, 2015 13:37:08 GMT -5
I saw an article quoting the uncle who said that this person seemed to be 'adrift' - he didn't work, seemed to have no ambition, stayed in his room all day (no doubt reading neo Nazi/KKK websites). Uncle said it was obvious there was a problem, but I'm guessing he didn't get any MI evaluation either because his parents insurance didn't cover it, or he was no longer covered by his parent's insurance.
MI help is limited to those that have insurance (and then, it's generally for a very limited time frame) or for those who can pay the expense out of pocket. Even if you're found wandering naked on the street, you'll probably just get a few days at a facility, a pocketful of stabilizing drugs, and you get dumped back onto the street without any supervision to see if you're continuing to take the drugs, or even if the drugs work for you.
Unfortunately, I think politicians take a cold hearted look at this kind of issue - they figure most people with MI aren't going to be dangerous, and they don't want to devote tax dollars towards treating a lot of people when only a few of them might actually harm someone else. It's not cost effective.
Which is a huge shame, because even if a person with MI isn't dangerous, their life is still constrained by their illness. Proper treatment could make them a tax paying member of society, instead of the crazy cat lady who lives in a garage.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 13:47:25 GMT -5
@rockit - the vast majority of people with mental illnesses do not commit violent crimes. What we hear about are the exceptions, and we hear about them exactly because it is rare and thus newsworthy. Of course no one has the right to kill others, but the opposite is true as well - no one has the right to lock someone away simply because they have a mental illness. If someone is committing a crime then they should be punished for it, yes. But we should not punish someone simply because we think they may commit a crime. Would you suggest we lock away everyone who has tried drugs? How about anyone who has taken a drink then gotten behind the wheel of a car - because we know some small percentage of that population will someday drink too much and kill someone? I'd like to see people with mental illnesses get treatment, but the fact that they may be mentally ill does not give society the right to lock them up. I hate to see this stuff as well, but it's always easy to see the "signs" after the fact. How many people present the same signs but don't act on them? Those numbers may be higher than either one of us would be comfortable with. I am speaking to severe mental illness, as I said. I never suggested people that had done nothing get locked up. But once they start committing crimes, showing they are not capable of controlling their actions, then they should get intervention because they have entered the system. Its not about "signs people missed" or hindsight, its about people demonstrating repeatedly that there is an issue, and their freedom trumps everyone else's safety, including the victims. If your life was legitimately threatened by a person who is mentally unstable (lets assume it is severe since they are threatening your life), how would you feel if the only penalty was them getting locked up for a couple days & then they are out to harass or target you again? Who's freedom should be protected in cases like that?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 18, 2015 13:48:26 GMT -5
Well, if you don't count our First Nations crimes or our Mafia, our crime rate would be closer to zero. Over half of the homicides in my city are organized crime-related. We'd still have far lower stats than you. See how that works? Or are you suggesting that only the US should be allowed to discount certain demographic groups?
Perhaps you are confusing me with the poster that suggested we discount things. I don't remember saying that at all. Ooops! Sorry! I quoted the wrong post.
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