Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 5, 2015 8:41:07 GMT -5
Cmon, mmhmm, be real. She responded to his quote. When you "quote someone" you are responding to the quote. If one is not quoting they should not quote that person. Maybe we should add that to the list of do's and don'ts here FWIW, I often quote people because of what's in the quote, not because I want to address that poster specifically. Sometimes I am responding, and sometimes I'm just using that quote to launch off an idea in it.
Did it today in fact. Picked one quote over another because I was tired of scrolling, and it had in it what I wanted to discuss. It was about the idea in the post, not the poster.
Then for future reference, let's put in the board rules: If you are not responding to the quote you just quoted, you must state at the beginning, you are not responding to the quote above. Maybe even state, I am just oblivious to everything around me, but bless my heart and snow leopards everywhere.......
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 5, 2015 8:41:31 GMT -5
I actually agree with this somewhat. Everyone acts like this only affects the person undergoing the change, but it affects EVERYONE in that person's life. Sure, you love them and do your best to support them, but it's not as simple as just those two things. Especially if the person transitioning is a parent or in a serious relationship/marriage. It's not just about the trans person, and their feelings aren't the only ones being affected. It's almost similar to people who commit suicide - they believe that what they're doing is the correct thing and that everyone will be better off, but the people left behind spend a lot of time sad, wondering why it happened, and if they could have done something to change that person's mind. NOT THAT I'M COMPARING TRANSITIONING GENDERS TO SUICIDE (that should be very obvious, but just in case some people decide to be selectively stupid today I thought I'd clarify), I'm just saying that other people are affected by the change.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 5, 2015 8:42:58 GMT -5
Can you put a working penis on a woman? I can see lopping one off but putting one on seems tricky.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 5, 2015 8:44:42 GMT -5
I actually agree with this somewhat. Everyone acts like this only affects the person undergoing the change, but it affects EVERYONE in that person's life. Sure, you love them and do your best to support them, but it's not as simple as just those two things. Especially if the person transitioning is a parent or in a serious relationship/marriage. It's not just about the trans person, and their feelings aren't the only ones being affected. It's almost similar to people who commit suicide - they believe that what they're doing is the correct thing and that everyone will be better off, but the people left behind spend a lot of time sad, wondering why it happened, and if they could have done something to change that person's mind. NOT THAT I'M COMPARING TRANSITIONING GENDERS TO SUICIDE (that should be very obvious, but just in case some people decide to be selectively stupid today I thought I'd clarify), I'm just saying that other people are affected by the change. If everyone was perfect, like me, we wouldn't have these issues.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 5, 2015 8:47:19 GMT -5
Well, that's true
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jun 5, 2015 8:49:05 GMT -5
The transition is complete when all the surgery is completed
From the lecture I attended there is apparently a debate about this in the transgendered community. The reason being the surgery is expensive since insurance often doesn't cover it and risky, especially if you are transitioning from female to male.
So there is a raging debate about whether you can use the label if you haven't had gender corrective surgery. Some feel you can't and others feel that is a personal choice and if that's the only thing you haven't done you should still be able to call yourself transgendered. I also thought the criteria was living as the sex. I think it was for passport identification purposes. I could be wrong--I can't quite remember, as I haven't had enough coffee yet.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 5, 2015 8:50:39 GMT -5
It still begs the question was he also a transgender
I highly doubt Michael Jackson was transgendered. My guess is Jackson was a very mentally unstable man with a shitload of money. So he was able to find doctors who saw dollar signs and were willing to set aside their ethics and give him whatever he wanted.
Could Bruce Jenner have done the same? Possibly but I doubt it.
To be "officially" transgendered and qualify for hormones/surgery is very lengthy process. You must seen a special therapist for a long period of time and be diagnosed as transgendered. Then you must live as the opposite sex (dress in drag basically) for X amount of time, then take hormones for X amount of time.
Then there aren't a ton of surgeons who will do the surgeries and there are serious ethical concerns involved. You can't just walk in and say you want your penis/boobs lopped off so you can live as the opposite sex.
I can't imagine there are people who do all that just so they can gain access to the ladies restroom to oogle or get free drinks at bars.
I attended a lecture in college that was hosted by the LBGT community and it was given by a transgendered person (male to female) it was extremely enlightening. I'd covered the topic in my social science classes but it was totally different to listen to someone whose lived it. You state Michael Jackson probably used his money to "buy" his surgery. What makes you think there are not hundreds of people in Hollywood who "buy" whatever they want regardless of laws. Jenner would be no different. There are doctors out there who would just do it for future patient references.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 5, 2015 8:52:38 GMT -5
Can you put a working penis on a woman? I can see lopping one off but putting one on seems tricky.
Yep. I attened the lecture in 2006 so I am not sure how far technology has progressed since then but it is possible.
It's a lot riskier to go from vagina to penis than in the reverse direction. There aren't a lot of (ethical) plastic surgeons in the states that will do corrective surgery for females due to the risks involved.
I was watching Taboo and they did an episode about transgenderism. There was an Olympic female athlete that transitioned in Europe. She had corrective surgery and it works.
Holy moley was she HOT. I never in a million years would have guess that she had been born a female.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 5, 2015 8:53:06 GMT -5
I actually agree with this somewhat. Everyone acts like this only affects the person undergoing the change, but it affects EVERYONE in that person's life. Sure, you love them and do your best to support them, but it's not as simple as just those two things. Especially if the person transitioning is a parent or in a serious relationship/marriage. It's not just about the trans person, and their feelings aren't the only ones being affected. It's almost similar to people who commit suicide - they believe that what they're doing is the correct thing and that everyone will be better off, but the people left behind spend a lot of time sad, wondering why it happened, and if they could have done something to change that person's mind. NOT THAT I'M COMPARING TRANSITIONING GENDERS TO SUICIDE (that should be very obvious, but just in case some people decide to be selectively stupid today I thought I'd clarify), I'm just saying that other people are affected by the change. If everyone was perfect, like me, we wouldn't have these issues. Boom.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 5, 2015 8:54:30 GMT -5
I actually agree with this somewhat. Everyone acts like this only affects the person undergoing the change, but it affects EVERYONE in that person's life. Sure, you love them and do your best to support them, but it's not as simple as just those two things. Especially if the person transitioning is a parent or in a serious relationship/marriage. It's not just about the trans person, and their feelings aren't the only ones being affected. It's almost similar to people who commit suicide - they believe that what they're doing is the correct thing and that everyone will be better off, but the people left behind spend a lot of time sad, wondering why it happened, and if they could have done something to change that person's mind. NOT THAT I'M COMPARING TRANSITIONING GENDERS TO SUICIDE (that should be very obvious, but just in case some people decide to be selectively stupid today I thought I'd clarify), I'm just saying that other people are affected by the change. If everyone was perfect, like me, we wouldn't have these issues. You said you would "hit it." Horny, yes. Perfect? Meh.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 5, 2015 9:05:24 GMT -5
What makes you think there are not hundreds of people in Hollywood who "buy" whatever they want regardless of laws.
Of course Jenner could have done that. Personally I doubt it after seeing his interviews but yes it's possible. That doesn't make Jackson transgendered though. If he doesn't meet the criteria according to the DSM then he can claim whatever he wants to get attention it doesn't make it the case.
Just b/c he could buy surgery doesn't mean every person out there who identifies as transgender is out there doing the same. If you're going thru the proper channels the amount of documentation you have to have before a surgeon will touch you is huge.
Unless you're the uber rich going thru the transition process isn't easy. Surgery is supposed to be the LAST step in the process for good reason. You can stop wearing the clothes, you can stop the hormones. Surgery is forever.
So personally I assume that if someone has gone that far they are seriously committed. They aren't doing it just for free drinks, to get into the ladies restroom or any of the other weird reasons people have thrown out to explain why someone would change genders.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 9:05:39 GMT -5
Children, relationships, etc are all impacted by things like divorce too... Should we stop that ?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 5, 2015 9:24:07 GMT -5
Interesting thought.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 5, 2015 9:33:18 GMT -5
Mr. Jenner is making a choice which he believes is in his own best interest. Hard to see that as "victimhood." As far as his children and grandchildren, wouldn't the loving thing be to want what is best for the one loved? To support them? A transgendered person does not become less of a person as a result of transitioning. I may not understand the struggles that would lead them to that choice, but how do I as a thoughtful person criticize them for it? It would require being a very small person to think that someone's (likely) lifelong struggle in defining who they are to in any way be about the observer.
I never said anything about prerequisites for worthiness of discussion. and since the rest of your post is off on that tangent, I trust you will allow me to ignore it.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 5, 2015 9:34:19 GMT -5
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 5, 2015 9:44:31 GMT -5
Children, relationships, etc are all impacted by things like divorce too... Should we stop that ? did I say we should stop it? I just brought it up as a valid point.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jun 5, 2015 10:04:19 GMT -5
I'm not sure how it works in all states, but in my previous state, a student transitioned (legally) from female to male without having the "bottom" surgery. I work in higher ed, and he wanted to update his gender status and name in the database. He had the appropriate documentation from the state (drivers license, legal name change, etc.) all showing the new name and gender.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 5, 2015 10:10:52 GMT -5
Oh no no no no, @anne81, you have it all wrong! "They" don't need equal rights or protections! All "They" need to do is see the inherent evil of their ways and "repent" according to my belief system and then the whole thing will just go away and then we will have solved the "transgender problem." Kittensaver is finally coming around. Now I feel as though I've accomplished something.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 5, 2015 10:16:55 GMT -5
Sarcasm = Lost.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 5, 2015 10:25:30 GMT -5
Sarcasm = Lost. I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic, so no - I think it was 100% received.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 5, 2015 10:27:46 GMT -5
Sarcasm = Lost. I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic, so no - I think it was 100% received. I think she was responding to his sarcasm with sarcasm, which I think you possibly responded to with sarcasm and I am damn sure I am responding to with sarcasm. Or not. I am confused.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 5, 2015 10:38:29 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic, so no - I think it was 100% received. I think she was responding to his sarcasm with sarcasm, which I think you possibly responded to with sarcasm and I am damn sure I am responding to with sarcasm. Or not. I am confused. my thought thingy hurts now...
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 5, 2015 10:45:20 GMT -5
"Oh yes, your dozens of insightful posts on how to oppress your fellow human beings have definitely changed my mind." ~ Said No One Ever
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 5, 2015 10:58:33 GMT -5
I wish people could learn to separate tolerance, acceptance and opinions.
In other words, there are quite a few things that I don't agree with, think it's not normal, should or should not be legal or illegal, etc etc etc. And yet, for the most part, I can very much tolerate it. Some of them I can even accept.
The problem is that usually both sides want complete and total acceptance, even support from the other side.
And is just not realistic, no matter what arguments are presented.
And for the argument of "science" - a few posters keep quoting scientific research, thinking that it must be 100% convincing. But it's just not. For obvious reasons.
26 pages and we are where we started....
Well, may be at least learn something new, so not to have a complete waste of time
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 11:09:19 GMT -5
there are quite a few things that I don't agree with,
Fine!
think it's not normal,
Fine!
should or should not be legal or illegal,
The issue. If it deals with restricting other people's right
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 5, 2015 11:15:48 GMT -5
There's only one person on here trying to do that, and I'm not even 100% sure he's trying to.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 5, 2015 11:31:10 GMT -5
this was an interesting read just now. link
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 5, 2015 11:37:08 GMT -5
this was an interesting read just now. linkyou gots to kill someone to be brave and heroic.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 5, 2015 11:39:31 GMT -5
this was an interesting read just now. linkyou gots to kill someone to be brave and heroic. did you read the whole thing?
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 5, 2015 11:40:02 GMT -5
you gots to kill someone to be brave and heroic. did you read the whole thing? no. I am a skimmer.
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