Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jun 3, 2015 9:23:11 GMT -5
his urologist told him that men have a lot less swimmers than they had 100 years ago. Sounds environmental to me, or maybe due to crappy diet. Is that documented? Is it based on the thing from the 1960's? I have no idea. That's what my DH told me that his Dr told him. I found it interesting, but not interesting enough to read more about it.
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fatbear
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Post by fatbear on Jun 3, 2015 9:26:13 GMT -5
"Face it, some people aren't okay with transsexuals, and that's okay." If I say, 'Face it, some people aren't okay with Jews, and that's okay. Face it, some people aren't okay with a black person marrying a white person, and that's okay. Face it, some people aren't okay with girls getting an education, and that's okay. Etc. Etc. Are those things all good too? Just asking. No one has the innate right to be liked by others.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jun 3, 2015 9:26:51 GMT -5
Yeah, I see what you're saying. I guess in my head I wouldn't lump transgender people in with that kind of issue. I'm not sure they contribute to weakening the species. Changing our perception of our species sure, but I don't feel there are enough transgender people to affect our population. no, it's not that trans people are contributing to the weakening of the species. It's that it's one more thing that will change what we do in terms of procreation. Trans people can't have kids naturally, so if they wanted a biological child they would have to rely on a surrogate, or maybe a test tube type incubation thing. I just see a lot of roads leading to more and more kids being created through artificial means and that doesn't sit comfortable with me. I know it's not something really significant right now, but I can already see the writing on the wall. I guess you could say that being able to raise a test tube baby could allow you to select for preferable features, which one could use to eradicate certain illnesses, I just don't think that process is right. I hope I don't sound as crazy as I think I do. Actually, they can. They aren't sterile, it just matters who they end up marrying. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2721891/Transgender-couple-prepare-telling-children-father-actually-mother-vice-versa.html
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 3, 2015 9:29:39 GMT -5
no, it's not that trans people are contributing to the weakening of the species. It's that it's one more thing that will change what we do in terms of procreation. Trans people can't have kids naturally, so if they wanted a biological child they would have to rely on a surrogate, or maybe a test tube type incubation thing. I just see a lot of roads leading to more and more kids being created through artificial means and that doesn't sit comfortable with me. I know it's not something really significant right now, but I can already see the writing on the wall. I guess you could say that being able to raise a test tube baby could allow you to select for preferable features, which one could use to eradicate certain illnesses, I just don't think that process is right. I hope I don't sound as crazy as I think I do. So you are against ART. For all people I'm assuming.... yeah, that's my view if I'm taking a purely evolutionary standpoint. From a micro viewpoint, I'm still pretty on the fence about it.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 3, 2015 9:30:27 GMT -5
Yeah, I see what you're saying. I guess in my head I wouldn't lump transgender people in with that kind of issue. I'm not sure they contribute to weakening the species. Changing our perception of our species sure, but I don't feel there are enough transgender people to affect our population. no, it's not that trans people are contributing to the weakening of the species. It's that it's one more thing that will change what we do in terms of procreation. Trans people can't have kids naturally, so if they wanted a biological child they would have to rely on a surrogate, or maybe a test tube type incubation thing. I just see a lot of roads leading to more and more kids being created through artificial means and that doesn't sit comfortable with me. I know it's not something really significant right now, but I can already see the writing on the wall. I guess you could say that being able to raise a test tube baby could allow you to select for preferable features, which one could use to eradicate certain illnesses, I just don't think that process is right. I hope I don't sound as crazy as I think I do. Do you watch Orphan Black? If not it's a really good show, it gets into these issue of genetic engineering (the show is about clones).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 9:30:52 GMT -5
I've heard plastics and a few other ideas on lower sperm count. I can link once I'm home, no phone.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 3, 2015 9:31:18 GMT -5
no, it's not that trans people are contributing to the weakening of the species. It's that it's one more thing that will change what we do in terms of procreation. Trans people can't have kids naturally, so if they wanted a biological child they would have to rely on a surrogate, or maybe a test tube type incubation thing. I just see a lot of roads leading to more and more kids being created through artificial means and that doesn't sit comfortable with me. I know it's not something really significant right now, but I can already see the writing on the wall. I guess you could say that being able to raise a test tube baby could allow you to select for preferable features, which one could use to eradicate certain illnesses, I just don't think that process is right. I hope I don't sound as crazy as I think I do. Actually, they can. They aren't sterile, it just matters who they end up marrying. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2721891/Transgender-couple-prepare-telling-children-father-actually-mother-vice-versa.htmlSo mom is really dad, and dad is really mom? Sorry but that just seems unnecessarily confusing to me.
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cael
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Post by cael on Jun 3, 2015 9:33:30 GMT -5
I don't think MJ sounds crazy, I get the point she's making. I just don't agree with transgender people being in that category or whatever. I think for example the technique I read about recently where an embryo can be created with 3 genetic parents... now that's a little unsettling. Human cloning would be/is a little unsettling to me. I guess trans people could choose to have children in similar ways as hetero gender-conforming people with fertility problems do, so it isn't unsettling to me. And out of the small percentage of the population who are trans, how many of those people choose to have kids after their transition? Bruce Jenner for example had kids the old fashioned way, before he transitioned, so that isn't a thing. I just don't see it affecting much. The tech trans people could use to have kids has existed for decades, they are just a subset of the population who may utilize that tech. I guess I view the "artificiality" of alternate ways to conceive children as a progression in our species, and probably a neutral to good thing overall. Society evolves and keeps evolving, it just is what it is. (I hope I don't sound as crazy as i think I do either! ) I wouldn't assume to put words in MJ's mouth... ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 9:34:31 GMT -5
"Face it, some people aren't okay with transsexuals, and that's okay." If I say, 'Face it, some people aren't okay with Jews, and that's okay. Face it, some people aren't okay with a black person marrying a white person, and that's okay. Face it, some people aren't okay with girls getting an education, and that's okay. Etc. Etc. Are those things all good too? Just asking. No one has the innate right to be liked by others. It's not about being liked. I personally wouldn't care much for the person making any of those statement. The issue is that historically those 'personsl opinions' go hand in hand with public policy and oppression of the group those people aren't 'ok with'.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 3, 2015 9:39:42 GMT -5
I couldn't get all the way through that. I can't help to think about a teacher I had - the first paper I did was well thought out, painfully researched, probably the best paper I ever wrote. I had multiple people proof read it. I had never put more time or effort into a paper - but I took a conservative viewpoint. I got a B-, and a lecture about what I terrible person I was. The next assignment, I threw together shit with absolutely no research and no original or even cognizant thought process. There were typos, and the whole thing was a mess. I got an A. That shaped not only the rest of my college career, but how I view professors. He is afraid of liberal students, but his example was of his conservative student. I didn't see another real example in there. Poor him. His job is hard. Welcome to the world. Sorry you had that experience. I was thinking that the times I learned the most were the times I was most challenged. If he's scared to challenge anyone, I'm afraid his students are not learning much that they didn't already know. I probably learned the most important lesson of all. People don't listen, people don't care about your opinion. If you are depending on someone for something, tell them what they want to hear so you can get what you need. If you don't want to do that, go get what you want elsewhere. Everyone thinks they are right, and no one really has an open mind. Liberals are just as closed minded as right wing christian conservatives. If you disagree with them, they belittle you, they tell you that you are the cause of all the world's problems, they blame every social injustice ever on you. "Everyone is right, as long as they see it the same way I do." - said everyone, everywhere, always.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 3, 2015 9:40:13 GMT -5
So you are against ART. For all people I'm assuming.... yeah, that's my view if I'm taking a purely evolutionary standpoint. From a micro viewpoint, I'm still pretty on the fence about it. What about premature babies, or babies born with defects that we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on to keep alive? That seems like a slippery slope. Who decides what medical advances are acceptable and for what people.
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fatbear
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Post by fatbear on Jun 3, 2015 9:44:33 GMT -5
No one has the innate right to be liked by others. It's not about being liked. I personally wouldn't care much for the person making any of those statement. The issue is that historically those 'personsl opinions' go hand in hand with public policy and oppression of the group those people aren't 'ok with'. Today it is about being "liked". It is no longer acceptable in certain cases to not be OK with people and not want to interact with them.
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luckyme
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Post by luckyme on Jun 3, 2015 9:47:03 GMT -5
Well, hopefully he will be happy becoming Caitlyn.
A co-worker of mine, who I was also friendly with, transgendered. (she made her first public appearance at my wedding) She did not look anything like Caitlyn. SHe looked like a guy trying to look like a girl. Her kids who were just entering their teen years were devastated as well as his wife. Kids lost their "dad", and gained Jenny. They spent quite a while in therapy. Ultimately they forged a new relationship and it was good, but it was different.
Her SO had started out as a guy, lived as a woman for a couple of years, and then went back to living as a man again. (no surgery)
So this process can be very complicated, and life changing for everyone in their orbit, and in some cases, like Jenny's boyfriend, didn't result in fulfillment. Unless there are people who are actually bi-gendered?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 9:52:14 GMT -5
Again, I don't care if someone doesn't like a transgendered person.
I care that someone wants to label transgendered people as sick/delusional/disordered/etc.
In general, when I dislike someone, I try not to base it on a stereotype, on what 'group' they belong to...
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fatbear
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Post by fatbear on Jun 3, 2015 9:56:14 GMT -5
Again, I don't care if someone doesn't like a transgendered person. I care that someone wants to label transgendered people as sick/delusional/disordered/etc. In general, when I dislike someone, I try not to base it on a stereotype, on what 'group' they belong to... So you dislike the reason that the other person uses for disliking that person? What business is it of yours for why they dislike them? That sounds very intolerant.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 3, 2015 10:03:16 GMT -5
Again, I don't care if someone doesn't like a transgendered person. I care that someone wants to label transgendered people as sick/delusional/disordered/etc. In general, when I dislike someone, I try not to base it on a stereotype, on what 'group' they belong to... So you dislike the reason that the other person uses for disliking that person? What business is it of yours for why they dislike them? That sounds very intolerant. There is a difference of not liking a person, and not liking any person that associates with or could be part of a certain group.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 3, 2015 10:05:37 GMT -5
Or they could adopt an orphan. ART is a COMPLETELY separate issue from this thread. I'd guess many more test tube babies happen because women are waiting until their 30s to have children (vs 18). Also, I'd bet that infertility is a sign of our polluted environment. Regardless...has nothing to do with trans. I agree with you that as medical science gets more sophisticated we start to edge towards medical ethics questions. It's not just the women. When DH was getting checked out (for the record, even though we're old, we never used any ART ), his urologist told him that men have a lot less swimmers than they had 100 years ago. Sounds environmental to me, or maybe due to crappy diet. Maybe also how cold their balls are. Mammalian male reproductive organs are on the outside of the body to keep the temperature of the sperm lower, because that improves the sperm activity/viability. This was fine for cavemen (and the Scots) but as clothing changed from loose boxers and loose slacks to those clingy boxer briefs and tight jeans, I wouldn't be surprised that their sperm count suffered. I've been trying for years to get the males in my life to wear kilts .
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fatbear
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Post by fatbear on Jun 3, 2015 10:10:00 GMT -5
So you dislike the reason that the other person uses for disliking that person? What business is it of yours for why they dislike them? That sounds very intolerant. There is a difference of not liking a person, and not liking any person that associates with or could be part of a certain group. There isn't really. No one has an innate right to be liked or accepted. Everyone has the right to be tolerated. As long as the hater is not violating NAP, I don't care.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jun 3, 2015 10:11:15 GMT -5
Sorry you had that experience. I was thinking that the times I learned the most were the times I was most challenged. If he's scared to challenge anyone, I'm afraid his students are not learning much that they didn't already know. I probably learned the most important lesson of all. People don't listen, people don't care about your opinion. If you are depending on someone for something, tell them what they want to hear so you can get what you need. If you don't want to do that, go get what you want elsewhere. Everyone thinks they are right, and no one really has an open mind. Liberals are just as closed minded as right wing christian conservatives. If you disagree with them, they belittle you, they tell you that you are the cause of all the world's problems, they blame every social injustice ever on you. "Everyone is right, as long as they see it the same way I do." - said everyone, everywhere, always. I find that really sad. I guess that I was lucky in that, in at least a few of my classes, I was encouraged to argue both sides. Maybe it was the psych classes mostly? I guess when you're trying to understand where someone's coming from, you have to be open to what they have to say, and you know, actually listen. Thinking back, though, a chunk of the psych classes probably tended towards the liberal view and the business classes were much more conservative.
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cranberry49
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'Sometimes the simple things are the prettiest'
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Post by cranberry49 on Jun 3, 2015 10:11:23 GMT -5
Since civilizations have been leaving oral and written histories there have been gay, lesbian and transgendered people... They might have used different terms, think two spirit people of the Native American tribes, etc. But they have been there, and less outcasts of their society than we try/have tried to make them. As for gender roles, no two societies have ever conceptualize them exactly the same, nor have they remained consistent.
From my point of view (as a believer) Being gay, and/or, transgendered, has always been wrong. From the very first day of creation. The bible was written because of things that people were doing wrong. People needed guidance. They needed something to teach them right from wrong. That is exactly where the bible came into play. Why even have a book written with Gods values contained within-- if it is not relevant? Just because people were always doing it, does not mean that it was/is right. Just because you don't see the harm in it, does not make it right either. Anyway, this is all that I will say on the bible subject, unless asked otherwise.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 3, 2015 10:21:30 GMT -5
From my point of view (as a believer) Being gay, and/or, transgendered, has always been wrong. From the very first day of creation. The bible was written because of things that people were doing wrong. People needed guidance. They needed something to teach them right from wrong. That is exactly where the bible came into play. Why even have a book written with Gods values contained within-- if it is not relevant? Just because people were always doing it, does not mean that it was/is right. Just because you don't see the harm in it, does not make it right either. Anyway, this is all that I will say on the bible subject, unless asked otherwise. The problem, IMHO, is that the LBGT community gets an unrepresentative amount of condemnation from the evangelical community. There are lots of things the bible says are wrong but you don't hear the evangelical community talk about therapy and reform for fornicators or people who get tattoos, people who eat pork etc, etc, etc.. and I think that is what drives a wedge between the two.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 3, 2015 10:22:38 GMT -5
We should ban all pork products.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 3, 2015 10:24:52 GMT -5
We should ban all pork products.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 3, 2015 10:25:19 GMT -5
We should ban all pork products. Or at least pay for therapy for those who love pork.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 3, 2015 10:25:57 GMT -5
We should ban all pork products. That opinion is not valid
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cael
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Post by cael on Jun 3, 2015 10:26:05 GMT -5
We should ban all pork products. Or at least pay for therapy for those who love pork. The taxpayers would not want to foot my therapy bill.... my tasty, tasty, bacon-grease-soaked therapy bill...
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 3, 2015 10:28:41 GMT -5
That opinion is not valid to think I liked you!!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2015 10:28:47 GMT -5
Again, I don't care if someone doesn't like a transgendered person. I care that someone wants to label transgendered people as sick/delusional/disordered/etc. In general, when I dislike someone, I try not to base it on a stereotype, on what 'group' they belong to... So you dislike the reason that the other person uses for disliking that person? What business is it of yours for why they dislike them? That sounds very intolerant. Can you not understand distinction? I don't care if MJ doesn't like it. I care that Virgil thinks he needs to publicly label it sick/delusional/dangerous/etc...
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 3, 2015 10:28:58 GMT -5
yeah, that's my view if I'm taking a purely evolutionary standpoint. From a micro viewpoint, I'm still pretty on the fence about it. What about premature babies, or babies born with defects that we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on to keep alive? That seems like a slippery slope. Who decides what medical advances are acceptable and for what people. Like everything else, money would decide (I'm not advocating this btw, just saying)
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cranberry49
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'Sometimes the simple things are the prettiest'
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Post by cranberry49 on Jun 3, 2015 10:29:17 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with eating pork because all things have been 'cleansed.' Oooops! I said something concerning the bible again without being asked. My bad.
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