AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 26, 2015 22:23:11 GMT -5
Illegals are an easy target, yet step foot in any trailer park or visit some rural areas and you will see the glut of flag waving white American citizens living on the dole. If there is a 'moocher class' it is well represented by all types of folks. I don't disagree with this, but immigrants (not just illegals) are a great place to start cutting the welfare roles. This would have a positive ripple effect throughout the economy. For starters, you'd get those rising wages you libs seem to care so much about. It's not so much that illegals do the jobs Americans won't do, it's that they do the jobs Americans won't do for half the going market rate for someone with a business license, insurance, and an annual tax return to file.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 26, 2015 22:24:48 GMT -5
You don't want to give up your baby for adoption? Then don't get pregnant or have the baby. Contrary to common belief, most republicans do believe in abortion. I'd rather a baby not be born that support it in another generation of welfare. Children should not raise children and if you can't support a child without someone's tax dollars, you have no business having one. Got anything to back that up? According to this, 27% of Republicans are pro-choice, while 69% are pro-life. 27% isn't "most".
www.gallup.com/poll/170249/split-abortion-pro-choice-pro-life.aspx
A plurality of the country are pro-life; and it's nearly unanimous on restricting late term abortions. Unrestricted abortion on demand is a truly fringe issue with very little support save for a rabid few on the far left- like Obama.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on May 26, 2015 22:35:13 GMT -5
A plurality of the country are pro-life; and it's nearly unanimous on restricting late term abortions. Unrestricted abortion on demand is a truly fringe issue with very little support save for a rabid few on the far left- like Obama. Didn't click on the link, did you? It said nothing about unrestricted, on demand, or late-term.
Republicans pro-choice 27% pro-life 69%
Democrats pro-choice 67% pro-life 28%
Independent pro-choice 46% pro-life 47%
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 26, 2015 23:05:38 GMT -5
A plurality of the country are pro-life; and it's nearly unanimous on restricting late term abortions. Unrestricted abortion on demand is a truly fringe issue with very little support save for a rabid few on the far left- like Obama. Didn't click on the link, did you? It said nothing about unrestricted, on demand, or late-term.
Republicans pro-choice 27% pro-life 69%
Democrats pro-choice 67% pro-life 28%
Independent pro-choice 46% pro-life 47%
I did. And I provided the additional breakdown, because I think both the GOP and Dem establishments have it in their heads that whatever the abortion-related issue is, most people are pro-abortion. It just ain't so. www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 26, 2015 23:07:51 GMT -5
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on May 26, 2015 23:13:17 GMT -5
Didn't click on the link, did you? It said nothing about unrestricted, on demand, or late-term.
Republicans pro-choice 27% pro-life 69%
Democrats pro-choice 67% pro-life 28%
Independent pro-choice 46% pro-life 47%
I did. And I provided the additional breakdown, because I think both the GOP and Dem establishments have it in their heads that whatever the abortion-related issue is, most people are pro-abortion. It just ain't so. www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspxHow about the other chart? The one that discusses abortion in general, as opposed to specifically unrestricted or late-term? Most Republicans are against it(69%), contrary to Zib's assertion. If she comes up with different stats, I'll be more than happy to read them.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,135
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 26, 2015 23:37:39 GMT -5
oh god. not another abortion thread. boooooooooooo!
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on May 27, 2015 6:53:37 GMT -5
I know plenty of democrats opposed to abortion too. It's not cut and dried to a certain political party It's a personal issue and should not be political at all. It's been decided and should be left alone. I'm not in favor of the bullshit reasons whack jobs use to try to restrict it. As far as late term? Define late. If late means when you found out your baby was going to have serious disabilities you feel unprepared to handle? Yes. If you decide at 7 months you don't want the baby after all? No. Then adopt it out. Contrary to common belief, there may be a few women out there that use it for birth control as opposed to anything else. Am I in favor of that? Not really but I also view it as they're too stupid to be allowed to reproduce already so they're doing society a favor. Last thing this country needs is more idiots reproducing.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,901
|
Post by happyhoix on May 27, 2015 7:11:12 GMT -5
Didn't click on the link, did you? It said nothing about unrestricted, on demand, or late-term.
Republicans pro-choice 27% pro-life 69%
Democrats pro-choice 67% pro-life 28%
Independent pro-choice 46% pro-life 47%
I did. And I provided the additional breakdown, because I think both the GOP and Dem establishments have it in their heads that whatever the abortion-related issue is, most people are pro-abortion. It just ain't so. www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspxI think I must be looking at a different chart. I see 50% of the country think abortions should be allowed in certain circumstances, and 28% think it should always be allowed. That means 78% of the country thinks that abortion should be an option in some circumstances. Where is the 'plurality of the country' that is pro-life? 78% is greater than 21% isn't it?
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,901
|
Post by happyhoix on May 27, 2015 7:16:47 GMT -5
True as it may be zib, it cannot be done for the simple reason that we, as individuals have no right to tell another to have or not have sex. It is after all a basic freedom. And I'm not accusing republicans of democrats because there are opponents on each side. Their opposition is based on "immorality" backed by their religious beliefs. We elect them to represent us and they find advise in the Bible not in common sens. Religion and politics should not mix but it apears that people care more about going to Heaven than do what would be fair for all. Well, my position is one based on morality backed up by my religion. You shall not steal. If anyone won't work, they should not eat. But this is fundamental not merely to religion, but to virtually all cultures. It's one of mathematical and economic reality. You can't have more than half the able bodied adult population not working, but still eating, and still sleeping in the climate controlled indoors. It has been tried. It always fails. Not fundamental to all religions. My religion says I have a moral obligation to care for the poor. It also says I'm not allowed to judge other people. It also says that I will be judged according to how I treated the least of my fellow humans. I'm also required to love other people - that one's probably the hardest one for me to do, I admit, because there are a whole shit load of people who are not that loveable, but I continue to try.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 27, 2015 7:16:51 GMT -5
I did. And I provided the additional breakdown, because I think both the GOP and Dem establishments have it in their heads that whatever the abortion-related issue is, most people are pro-abortion. It just ain't so. www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspxI think I must be looking at a different chart. I see 50% of the country think abortions should be allowed in certain circumstances, and 28% think it should always be allowed. That means 78% of the country thinks that abortion should be an option in some circumstances. Where is the 'plurality of the country' that is pro-life? 78% is greater than 21% isn't it? Go read my post. I specifically referenced "unrestricted abortion on demand" - to include the infanticide which is late term abortion- which 84% of the country is opposed to.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 27, 2015 7:17:33 GMT -5
I know plenty of democrats opposed to abortion too. It's not cut and dried to a certain political party It's a personal issue and should not be political at all. It's been decided and should be left alone. I'm not in favor of the bullshit reasons whack jobs use to try to restrict it. As far as late term? Define late. If late means when you found out your baby was going to have serious disabilities you feel unprepared to handle? Yes. If you decide at 7 months you don't want the baby after all? No. Then adopt it out. Contrary to common belief, there may be a few women out there that use it for birth control as opposed to anything else. Am I in favor of that? Not really but I also view it as they're too stupid to be allowed to reproduce already so they're doing society a favor. Last thing this country needs is more idiots reproducing. So was slavery.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 27, 2015 7:20:30 GMT -5
My point, in reference to the OP, is that abortion is not the answer to our out of control welfare state. Start with immigrants- NO welfare ever for any reason. If you immigrate here, and you do not become a citizen, you may NEVER avail yourself of our welfare system. Even if you do become a citizen, you owe us 10 years of gainful employment before you're eligible, not day one. Same, btw, for Social Security and Medicaid. This is the way even the most liberal welfare states of Europe work.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on May 27, 2015 8:39:22 GMT -5
Well, we will never agree on abortion and that's okay. I agree with a lot of what you say and believe in but I'm not a clone. I refuse to let women go back to back alleys. Because it won't end abortion, it'll just make it worse.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 27, 2015 9:28:32 GMT -5
Well, we will never agree on abortion and that's okay. I agree with a lot of what you say and believe in but I'm not a clone. I refuse to let women go back to back alleys. Because it won't end abortion, it'll just make it worse. I've already recognized this many times. I do think we need to acknowledge the scientific facts, however. We have mad a lot of advancements since Roe v. Wade. Most pro-lifers will not compromise like I am willing to do; but I think we need to ban late term abortions. I believe that abortion should be restricted to the first trimester. We know for a scientific fact that gruesome late term abortion procedures are infanticide. There is no defending them. 84% agree, so it's really policy that only a few kooks on the fringe will defend. Additionally, as it pertains to welfare-- the more uncomfortable we make it economically, the fewer "unplanned" (as if) pregnancies you're going to have. Even legal abortion is not a comfort or a relief to most sane women. The vast majority of even pro-abortion women do not want to be in the position of aborting a pregnancy in the first place- it is still a last resort. And then there are the economic facts- the simple data: welfare reform worked. The Clinton-Gingrich era welfare reform put people back to work and contributed to the economic growth of that era.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on May 27, 2015 9:33:01 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with genetic testing and how long it takes for you to determine any abnormalities . If it takes beyond the first trimester, then women have the right to know and then choose how they want to proceed. I'm NOT in favor of doctors lying and choosing for their patients how they proceed with their pregnancy.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,901
|
Post by happyhoix on May 27, 2015 10:44:22 GMT -5
My point, in reference to the OP, is that abortion is not the answer to our out of control welfare state. Start with immigrants- NO welfare ever for any reason. If you immigrate here, and you do not become a citizen, you may NEVER avail yourself of our welfare system. Even if you do become a citizen, you owe us 10 years of gainful employment before you're eligible, not day one. Same, btw, for Social Security and Medicaid. This is the way even the most liberal welfare states of Europe work. What percentage of welfare recipients are immigrants? Just curious.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,901
|
Post by happyhoix on May 27, 2015 10:47:33 GMT -5
Actually, I think you will find that the vast majority of Americans agree with this.
Yes some people think abortions should not be allowed for any reason at all, and some people believe abortions should be allowed right up last month and for any reason, but those are the fringes on the far ends of the issue, not what most people think.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,901
|
Post by happyhoix on May 27, 2015 11:04:44 GMT -5
I went and googled how many illegal immigrants get welfare, and instead found this interesting article from 2012: www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/09/18/who-receives-benefits-from-the-federal-government-in-six-charts/Interestingly, 3/4 of the entitlement benefits go to the elderly and disabled. Only 9 percent go to households that are non-elderly and non-working (mostly healthcare and unemployment benefits). Also very interesting, most of the benefits go to the middle class, mostly through Medicare and social security. So when you remove those too old or too disabled to work, that narrows down the pool of leeches significantly. And here is an article on whether or not that 9 percent of lazy non working non elderly people sucking at the government trough are illegal immigrants: money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/Myth #3: They drain the system Undocumented immigrants do not qualify for welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and most other public benefits. Most of these programs require proof of legal immigration status and under the 1996 welfare law, even legal immigrants cannot receive these benefits until they have been in the United States for more than five years.
So I think if we're going to start paring down those entitlement benefits we'll have to go after Grandma and the disabled.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,135
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 27, 2015 11:29:32 GMT -5
oh god. not another abortion thread. boooooooooooo!
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,135
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 27, 2015 11:32:29 GMT -5
i have pointed out that illegal migrants pay into the system approximately what they take out, but the anti-immigration community refuses to believe it. there have been several studies done on this. the most reliable one (imo) asserts that approximately 80% of the money that is spent on "illegals" is recovered in noncollectable payroll taxes. i have actually seen three studies on this. one said 60% was covered, the other said 80%, and the third said over 100% was covered. i threw out the two extremes.
|
|
happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,901
|
Post by happyhoix on May 27, 2015 12:22:21 GMT -5
oh god. not another abortion thread. boooooooooooo! You're right, that's a dead horse we should all refuse to beat.
|
|
EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on May 27, 2015 12:24:31 GMT -5
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,135
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 27, 2015 12:41:12 GMT -5
whoa. that is almost unbelievably perverse.
|
|
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 11:59:07 GMT -5
Posts: 31,709
Favorite Drink: Sweetwater 420
|
Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 27, 2015 12:58:53 GMT -5
whoa. that is almost unbelievably perverse. And probably not exactly true.
|
|
chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 38,563
|
Post by chiver78 on May 27, 2015 13:08:19 GMT -5
wow. we made it to page 5 before seeing an abortion sidebar. that's gotta be a record. seriously guys, please don't make me have to lock the thread. please and thank you. -chiver mod
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,135
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 27, 2015 13:13:38 GMT -5
wow. we made it to page 5 before seeing an abortion sidebar. that's gotta be a record. seriously guys, please don't make me have to lock the thread. please and thank you. -chiver mod thanks, chiver.
|
|