Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 16, 2015 11:08:52 GMT -5
It's very simple. Look at the policy , look at the grades and figure it out. Done deal. Easy peasy.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Apr 16, 2015 11:41:35 GMT -5
I really don't understand why there is always so much angst about allowing someone to receive an honor they actually earned? Amazing. Because many of us don't consider talking to people at graduation to be an "honor". I was valedictorian, it wasn't a big deal. I had to do extra work writing a speech. I wouldn't have even done it except my parents wanted me to and paid me off. Giving the speech or not had no effect on me being ranked #1 in the class. I know for a fact the 2 classes before me, and the 2nd class after me had someone other than the #1 in class give the valedictory. As with many things, it's only a big deal to everyone who wishes it was them. I think her point is that some people - including the person receiving the honor (yes, honor) might actually care. Because I'm sure all Nobel Prize winners were all like, "eh, it's no big deal."
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 16, 2015 11:53:36 GMT -5
Because it isn't right. Because some mom bitched and another mom caved, something that's wrong gets perpetrated. It says plenty. IMO people don't actually move on so much as stop fighting. This is the type of thing that in ten or twenty years the student or his parents will see a picture or hear the name of the transfer student who was made saludatorian and refer to him as the kid who "stole" the their honor. Just because someone stops fighting now doesn't mean it will ever be okay or forgotten. Or... they decide to use the experience as a chance to understand something differently and/or grow as a person.
The only B I got in my college major was a B in Organizational Theory and Behavior. That is not a typo. WTF?!? How do you ace all the quantitative math, advanced accounting, etc and get a B in a comparatively easy course? I got As on all the tests and work, so what happened?
We were randomly assigned into groups of 4 for a project that represented 50% of the grade. Two of the three people were fraternity brothers and one of the three was a member of the sorority that was linked to the guys' fraternity; I think the girl was even dating one of the guys' best friends or something. Anyway, we did the project and got a top grade. The issue came in because the professor assigned the individual grades based on a system where the team decided amongst itself how to rank the performance. Only a set amount of points were available, so to give one person more points, you had to downgrade another team member. Guess which non-Greek team member got assigned 0 points and all the remaining points divided equally among the others? So, for that project those three got As and I got a C. When the professor told me, I was shocked and livid. It was especially galling because I had done most of the work on the project and even did the public presentation portion we scored so highly on. I was putting myself through school with a combination of working and scholarships, so was also worried about how the lower grade might impact future scholarships and my ability to get interviews (bad economy due to recession.) It was unfair and I was angry.
After I calmed down, though, I realized that there were plenty of lessons to be learned there. First lesson was picking battles. Because even though I could have tried to fight it, the system was clearly articulated and determined at the beginning of class and the people involved had followed the system. So I learned that it is really important to not just learn the system you're operating under but to think through how it can be worked and what loopholes are available. Can't tell you how many times that has been helpful to me in my professional career.
Second lesson was the importance of relationships. In this situation, I had no control over the relationships, but sometimes in life you do. This taught me that people often value relationships over other values and that one ignores them at their peril. Had I done a better job of becoming friends with my group, I might have at least avoided some of it, but I hadn't bothered, so they felt no guilt whatsoever in sticking with their friends and screwing the oddball in the group. I don't make that mistake any more. I make sure I have reasonable relationships and that I am aware of the other relationships around me as much as possible.
I could go on, but there were a lot of things I learned from this - including how not to design systems where people can be self serving when they rate the performance of others. In other words, it was a harsh lesson but actually very well suited to the class - Organizational Theory and Behavior. I learned a lot about organizational theory and behavior.
Yes, that grade meant I graduated Magna (Wow - autocorrect keeps changing the next word to "semen"! - I'll delete) instead of Summa ___ Laude. Within a year after I graduated and had started my job, that was completely and totally irrelevant and has never been an issue.
Not sure if it cost me any scholarship money, but I still got some scholarships and with work, could pay for college.
I still got interviews with all the top employers and got really awesome job offers.
In other words, it all turned out OK. So it would be dumb to hold on to that experience and be bitter or worry about it. Instead, I put those lessons to use in my business career and it's worked pretty well for me. Hopefully the people involved in this can do the same.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Apr 16, 2015 11:59:17 GMT -5
IMO people don't actually move on so much as stop fighting. This is the type of thing that in ten or twenty years the student or his parents will see a picture or hear the name of the transfer student who was made saludatorian and refer to him as the kid who "stole" the their honor. Just because someone stops fighting now doesn't mean it will ever be okay or forgotten. Or... they decide to use the experience as a chance to understand something differently and/or grow as a person.
The only B I got in my college major was a B in Organizational Theory and Behavior. That is not a typo. WTF?!? How do you ace all the quantitative math, advanced accounting, etc and get a B in a comparatively easy course? I got As on all the tests and work, so what happened?
We were randomly assigned into groups of 4 for a project that represented 50% of the grade. Two of the three people were fraternity brothers and one of the three was a member of the sorority that was linked to the guys' fraternity; I think the girl was even dating one of the guys' best friends or something. Anyway, we did the project and got a top grade. The issue came in because the professor assigned the individual grades based on a system where the team decided amongst itself how to rank the performance. Only a set amount of points were available, so to give one person more points, you had to downgrade another team member. Guess which non-Greek team member got assigned 0 points and all the remaining points divided equally among the others? So, for that project those three got As and I got a C. When the professor told me, I was shocked and livid. It was especially galling because I had done most of the work on the project and even did the public presentation portion we scored so highly on. I was putting myself through school with a combination of working and scholarships, so was also worried about how the lower grade might impact future scholarships and my ability to get interviews (bad economy due to recession.) It was unfair and I was angry.
After I calmed down, though, I realized that there were plenty of lessons to be learned there. First lesson was picking battles. Because even though I could have tried to fight it, the system was clearly articulated and determined at the beginning of class and the people involved had followed the system. So I learned that it is really important to not just learn the system you're operating under but to think through how it can be worked and what loopholes are available. Can't tell you how many times that has been helpful to me in my professional career.
Second lesson was the importance of relationships. In this situation, I had no control over the relationships, but sometimes in life you do. This taught me that people often value relationships over other values and that one ignores them at their peril. Had I done a better job of becoming friends with my group, I might have at least avoided some of it, but I hadn't bothered, so they felt no guilt whatsoever in sticking with their friends and screwing the oddball in the group. I don't make that mistake any more. I make sure I have reasonable relationships and that I am aware of the other relationships around me as much as possible.
I could go on, but there were a lot of things I learned from this - including how not to design systems where people can be self serving when they rate the performance of others. In other words, it was a harsh lesson but actually very well suited to the class - Organizational Theory and Behavior. I learned a lot about organizational theory and behavior.
Yes, that grade meant I graduated Magna semen Laude instead of Summa semen Laude. Within a year after I graduated and had started my job, that was completely and totally irrelevant and has never been an issue.
Not sure if it cost me any scholarship money, but I still got some scholarships and with work, could pay for college.
I still got interviews with all the top employers and got really awesome job offers.
In other words, it all turned out OK. So it would be dumb to hold on to that experience and be bitter or worry about it. Instead, I put those lessons to use in my business career and it's worked pretty well for me. Hopefully the people involved in this can do the same.
What college was this?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Apr 16, 2015 12:00:11 GMT -5
LMAO!!!! I JUST GOT WHY THAT HAPPENED!!!!!
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 16, 2015 12:06:12 GMT -5
It isn't about being bitter. I am sure his life will go on Just give credit where it is due. Not sure what is so controversial about that. Figure it out. Geez.
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justme
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Post by justme on Apr 16, 2015 12:10:57 GMT -5
The dictionary online mentions class rank in the definition of both terms. Everyone I know knows it's class rank. I've never of someone called that that was ranked 1 and 2. The class president also spoke at my graduation.
Not sure why colleges would give a rat's ass if you spoke at graduation. If you put down I'm valedictorian and number one in my class I think most college admissions would laugh and ask how bad the school is for the kids to speak in redundancies.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 16, 2015 12:46:46 GMT -5
Usually the salutatorian speaks as a sop for them not being number one.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Apr 16, 2015 13:00:34 GMT -5
I was neither - I just won the "My School Experience" essay contest so I "got" to speak at graduation. I was really nervous until I almost tripped getting to the podium. Then I said "I meant to do that" and everyone laughed. I was much more relaxed after that.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 16, 2015 13:00:50 GMT -5
Because many of us don't consider talking to people at graduation to be an "honor". I was valedictorian, it wasn't a big deal. I had to do extra work writing a speech. I wouldn't have even done it except my parents wanted me to and paid me off. Giving the speech or not had no effect on me being ranked #1 in the class. I know for a fact the 2 classes before me, and the 2nd class after me had someone other than the #1 in class give the valedictory. As with many things, it's only a big deal to everyone who wishes it was them. I think her point is that some people - including the person receiving the honor (yes, honor) might actually care. Because I'm sure all Nobel Prize winners were all like, "eh, it's no big deal." If these people think that giving public speeches is such an honor they will have plenty of opportunities to do so I'm sure. You can walk out onto any sidewalk and do it. I'm fine with people caring though. In fact, I said let them both do it if they care. They can both do it because it's not meaningful. If it's meaningful to some people, then let the whole class do it if they want. It doesn't hurt anyone! Free speech for all! The last time that you spoke at a meeting at work, did you honestly think "OMG what an honor to be able to talk to people?". If you were speaking because you were the top salesperson, I would expect that you'd be proud of the underlying accomplishment (top sales person) far more than giddy because you got to speak. The honor is whatever underlying achievement prompted the selection...if there even was one...not actually speaking IMO. If they selected as valedictorian the oldest kid in the class, do you think that kid honestly feels honored about giving the speech? It's about any underlying achievement that occurred, not the title.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Apr 16, 2015 13:05:07 GMT -5
I think her point is that some people - including the person receiving the honor (yes, honor) might actually care. Because I'm sure all Nobel Prize winners were all like, "eh, it's no big deal." If these people think that giving public speeches is such an honor they will have plenty of opportunities to do so I'm sure. You can walk out onto any sidewalk and do it. I'm fine with people caring though. In fact, I said let them both do it if they care. They can both do it because it's not meaningful. If it's meaningful to some people, then let the whole class do it if they want. It doesn't hurt anyone! Free speech for all! The last time that you spoke at a meeting at work, did you honestly think "OMG what an honor to be able to talk to people?". If you were speaking because you were the top salesperson, I would expect that you'd be proud of the underlying accomplishment (top sales person) far more than giddy because you got to speak. The honor is whatever underlying achievement prompted the selection...if there even was one...not actually speaking IMO. If they selected as valedictorian the oldest kid in the class, do you think that kid honestly feels honored about giving the speech? It's about any underlying achievement that occurred, not the title. I agree with your point. I don't necessarily think that speaking at graduation is the overall honor - being first in the class is. I actually don't like speaking in meetings because there is a chance for a participant to say something that invalidates everything you've just said.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 16, 2015 13:05:45 GMT -5
The dictionary online mentions class rank in the definition of both terms. Everyone I know knows it's class rank. I've never of someone called that that was ranked 1 and 2. The class president also spoke at my graduation. Not sure why colleges would give a rat's ass if you spoke at graduation. If you put down I'm valedictorian and number one in my class I think most college admissions would laugh and ask how bad the school is for the kids to speak in redundancies. I'd hope if I did that, they'd write me and let me know. I wouldn't want to go to any educational institution that didn't understand something so basic. I can't imagine a college would give a rat's ass either if you spoke at graduation. I'd expect them to look at "I was valedictorian and number 1 in my class" and think "why the fuck do I care that you spoke at graduation?" Maybe I just went to a much better school than most. We all understood the difference between valedictorian, salutatorian, and class rank. Maybe that's why so many people didn't care to be valedictorian even when ranked #1.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 16, 2015 13:23:41 GMT -5
"Why the fruck does" anyone care about anything? Why care? Nothing matters? Just quoting your words, btw.
Why give awards or honors for anything? Who cares? Who cares who is the Prom Queen or the captain of the team or the Student Council President? Who cares who is the 1st Chair in the band? Who cares who is the lead in the play? Who cares who got Student of the Month? Nothing matters.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 16, 2015 13:29:47 GMT -5
Because if no one cared, you wouldn't have anyone to argue with and you'd just be here posting by yourself?
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 16, 2015 13:30:07 GMT -5
LMAO!!!! I JUST GOT WHY THAT HAPPENED!!!!! Yep, and that's how I've reacted to it for many years now. Many, many lessons learned.
IMHO, much better way to handle it than looking at it as a time I got screwed out of something I "earned" or fought a huge battle with school over something that turned out to be meaningless (the grade part) or wasted a lot of time being angry about something that wasn't truly important in the big picture.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 16, 2015 13:33:10 GMT -5
Because if no one cared, you wouldn't have anyone to argue with and you'd just be here posting by yourself? I didn't start the thread.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 16, 2015 13:33:59 GMT -5
LMAO!!!! I JUST GOT WHY THAT HAPPENED!!!!! Yep, and that's how I've reacted to it for many years now. Many, many lessons learned.
IMHO, much better way to handle it than looking at it as a time I got screwed out of something I "earned" or fought a huge battle with school over something that turned out to be meaningless (the grade part) or wasted a lot of time being angry about something that wasn't truly important in the big picture.
I don't see anyone talking about being "angry". I just see a boy who was TOLD that he had won that honor and oh, btw, whoops we didn't mean it.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 16, 2015 13:55:03 GMT -5
Because if no one cared, you wouldn't have anyone to argue with and you'd just be here posting by yourself? I didn't start the thread. Yes, and the person who did posted a page ago that the son had decided to let the issue go. But here we are...
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 16, 2015 13:55:41 GMT -5
I didn't start the thread. Yes, and the person who did posted a page ago that the son had decided to let the issue go. But here we are... It's what we do!
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justme
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Post by justme on Apr 16, 2015 14:09:53 GMT -5
The dictionary online mentions class rank in the definition of both terms. Everyone I know knows it's class rank. I've never of someone called that that was ranked 1 and 2. The class president also spoke at my graduation. Not sure why colleges would give a rat's ass if you spoke at graduation. If you put down I'm valedictorian and number one in my class I think most college admissions would laugh and ask how bad the school is for the kids to speak in redundancies. I'd hope if I did that, they'd write me and let me know. I wouldn't want to go to any educational institution that didn't understand something so basic. I can't imagine a college would give a rat's ass either if you spoke at graduation. I'd expect them to look at "I was valedictorian and number 1 in my class" and think "why the fuck do I care that you spoke at graduation?" Maybe I just went to a much better school than most. We all understood the difference between valedictorian, salutatorian, and class rank. Maybe that's why so many people didn't care to be valedictorian even when ranked #1. The point everyone is trying to make is it seems your school is the only one where valedictorian had nothing to do with rank. At everyone else's school valedictorian= first in class. <waits to see who comments that their valedictorian was chosen and not synonymous with rank>
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 16, 2015 14:23:05 GMT -5
::The point everyone is trying to make is it seems your school is the only one where valedictorian had nothing to do with rank. At everyone else's school valedictorian= first in class.::
Waiting for all the other valedictorians on this board to indicate they were forced at gunpoint to give the valedictory. So far we have one valedictorian who has spoken up, and indicated that it was a choice. I have yet to see any others indicate they were physically forced to be valedictorian simply as a function of being #1 in class rank.
Interesting to see all the non-valedictorians telling the valedictorian how that works.
I didn't say it had "nothing" to do with rank, I said valedictorian was offered to the #1 in class. That person could do it or not. If they didn't, someone else would. That person would then be the valedictorian. It's only synonymous with first in class if by definition everyone who has ever been first in class also gave the valedictory. I know that to be false, it's an easy premise to reject.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Apr 16, 2015 14:28:23 GMT -5
::The point everyone is trying to make is it seems your school is the only one where valedictorian had nothing to do with rank. At everyone else's school valedictorian= first in class.:: Waiting for all the other valedictorians on this board to indicate they were forced at gunpoint to give the valedictory. So far we have one valedictorian who has spoken up, and indicated that it was a choice. I have yet to see any others indicate they were physically forced to be valedictorian simply as a function of being #1 in class rank. Interesting to see all the non-valedictorians telling the valedictorian how that works. I didn't say it had "nothing" to do with rank, I said valedictorian was offered to the #1 in class. That person could do it or not. If they didn't, someone else would. That person would then be the valedictorian. It's only synonymous with first in class if by definition everyone who has ever been first in class also gave the valedictory. I know that to be false, it's an easy premise to reject. I was valedictorian. I was first in the class. It didn't occur to me that I could opt out of the speech. I felt It was required. FWIW at my graduation the valedictorian (1st in class), salutatorian (2nd in class), student body president, and senior class president spoke, in that order. The principal also spoke, and the superintendent of schools.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 16, 2015 14:31:27 GMT -5
We had three valedictorians in our class. Only one gave a speech, the other two were still listed in the program as valedictorians. We had two salutatorians, neither of which gave a speech. Yet they were both listed as such in the program. We must be weird. It never occurred to me you only got the title if you gave the speech. We were told we had three valedictorians b/c all three of them had the same GPA so they were tied for #1 in the class ranks. The salutatorians were tied for #2.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 16, 2015 14:34:25 GMT -5
So you gave a farewell speech, followed by someone giving a welcome speech, followed by 2 other people speaking? That is an...interesting order.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 16, 2015 14:34:32 GMT -5
Our 1st and 2nd ranked classmates didn't give a speech at graduation. I am not sure if they didn't want to speak or if it just wasn't something we did - no earthly idea. We had the mayor speak and some other person (can't remember who). Like MJ, I spoke briefly at graduation because I won a contest. My class had 550 people and I certainly wasn't ranked in the top two, probably not even in the top ten - LOL! I honestly don't remember where I was ranked. I did well enough to get accepted to 5 state school. I guess that is all I really cared about. High school was really just one big social event for me.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 16, 2015 14:39:03 GMT -5
We had three valedictorians in our class. Only one gave a speech, the other two were still listed in the program as valedictorians. We had two salutatorians, neither of which gave a speech. Yet they were both listed as such in the program. We must be weird. It never occurred to me you only got the title if you gave the speech. We were told we had three valedictorians b/c all three of them had the same GPA so they were tied for #1 in the class ranks. The salutatorians were tied for #2. I don't think you're weird. In fact, I don't think it's uncommon that lots of people and some schools use terms incorrectly...which is somewhat understandable for individuals who need limited knowledge/experience of the terms, but kind of inexcusable for an educational institution. Technically the salutatorians in your case would have been tied for 4th if you had 3 people tied for first...which is another good example that salutatorian is clearly not the same as #2 in the class.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 16, 2015 14:41:14 GMT -5
My class had 550 people and I certainly wasn't ranked in the top two, probably not enough in the top ten
Our class rankings except for maybe the top 10 shot around like ping pong balls. My class had over 500 people in it my freshman year. It dropped to 210 at final count for graduation.
It screwed with a lot of people when applying for scholarships that wanted class rankings and percentages. You may still have the same GPA but your stats would change b/c 15 people dropped out last week.
We had the highest drop out rate in decades. Woo hoo go class of 2002!
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Apr 16, 2015 14:42:28 GMT -5
I'd hope if I did that, they'd write me and let me know. I wouldn't want to go to any educational institution that didn't understand something so basic. I can't imagine a college would give a rat's ass either if you spoke at graduation. I'd expect them to look at "I was valedictorian and number 1 in my class" and think "why the fuck do I care that you spoke at graduation?" Maybe I just went to a much better school than most. We all understood the difference between valedictorian, salutatorian, and class rank. Maybe that's why so many people didn't care to be valedictorian even when ranked #1. The point everyone is trying to make is it seems your school is the only one where valedictorian had nothing to do with rank. At everyone else's school valedictorian= first in class. <waits to see who comments that their valedictorian was chosen and not synonymous with rank> I looked up the definition too and it aays usually the person ranked highest. Huh. Amazing what definitions do for the soul. I was Salutatorian. There was a tie for #1 amd by tie I mean they literally took the exact same classes and got straight As. I got a B in keyboarding my freshman year. So the last semester of my senior year, I dropped advanced biology because there qas no point in me hopingone of them got a B and jjust take a class I would enjoy. Anyway, I had repeatedly said that I didn't want to give a speech because I didn't feel I was really #2. The principal heard my mumblings and told me I really needed to do it. I was also strongly encouraged by some classmates to take the honor and do it. If I had insisted that I wasn't going to speak I don't know what would have happened it turned out. It turned out to be a non issue.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Apr 16, 2015 14:46:34 GMT -5
My class had 550 people and I certainly wasn't ranked in the top two, probably not enough in the top ten
Our class rankings except for maybe the top 10 shot around like ping pong balls. My class had over 500 people in it my freshman year. It dropped to 210 at final count for graduation.
It screwed with a lot of people when applying for scholarships that wanted class rankings and percentages. You may still have the same GPA but your stats would change b/c 15 people dropped out last week.
We had the highest drop out rate in decades. Woo hoo go class of 2002!
Wow!! That is A LOT of dropouts! My class started with 640 something. So we roughly had 100 who dropped out.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Apr 16, 2015 14:47:37 GMT -5
So you gave a farewell speech, followed by someone giving a welcome speech, followed by 2 other people speaking? That is an...interesting order. Just illustrating they used the definition based on class rank, not order of speech given. www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/valedictorian
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