steph08
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Post by steph08 on Apr 13, 2015 17:42:17 GMT -5
I still hold a grudge against the valedictorian from high school, even though it is petty and I should let it go. I was salutatorian. She didn't have to take a required class and dropped a class midyear because she didn't get a high enough grade and didn't get penalized like she should have for doing that. She was a brownnoser and everyone catered to her. If I was your friend, I would fight the school, but then I have a personal vendetta about such things.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Apr 13, 2015 18:23:51 GMT -5
I'm surprised they used unweighted at first. Theoretically you could have someone who took all regular classes surpassing someone in all AP. The problem at my high school was that the top several students games the system, and took only honors and AP classes. Those of us who took additional classes had our grad point average "diluted" by taking stuff like band, art, publications, etc. I think I ended up 10th overall, even though I took more classes and had better grades (all As) than the valedictorian or salutatorian. Ultimately it didn't mattter (and I really had zero desire to give a speech), but the principle of the thing really pissed me off. I had the same thoughts in high school. Non-academic classes, such as phys ed, used as a part of grade point average. Going for a walk in the woods during Environmental Studies class counts the same as physics and advanced algebra. The up side was our school didn't have a valedictorian or salutatorian. We had a student speaker, selected by the senior class. Most years, the student speaker and the student with the best grades were the same person. A student respected by their peers for their achievement and often leadership. However, the class behind mine selected a popular student to respresent the senior class. He spoke about what a valuable education he got because he learned that the stuff in the bottom of a wine bottle was called the dregs, not gurch.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Apr 13, 2015 18:24:16 GMT -5
At the very least, your friend's child deserves a letter from the principal that explains what happened and doesn't exacerbate suspicions that the kid fudged on his applications.
I can easily understand how a school could overlook or mis-score a transfer student when converting flat GPAs to weighted GPAs. Converting those scores is a tricky business. It's easy to write a conversion program that handles students who have spent all four years at the same school but the transfer student will probably have to be hand-scored.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 19:02:23 GMT -5
At the very least, your friend's child deserves a letter from the principal that explains what happened and doesn't exacerbate suspicions that the kid fudged on his applications. I can easily understand how a school could overlook or mis-score a transfer student when converting flat GPAs to weighted GPAs. Converting those scores is a tricky business. It's easy to write a conversion program that handles students who have spent all four years at the same school but the transfer student will probably have to be hand-scored. That's probably why the school has the rule about transfer students not being eligible. The transfer student would be a non issue if they hadn't recalculated with weighted scores, my friend's son would still be 2nd in the class. I think recalculating and using a different scoring formula is questionable too. I haven't talked to my friend today, so I don't know if they talked to anyone today.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Apr 13, 2015 19:13:31 GMT -5
I think some things are getting garbled in transmission.
It's unlikely that the school used unweighted scores the first time and weighted scores the second time. Usually weighting the scores jumbles things up at the top. It's not common for the student with the highest unweighted GPA to also have the highest weighted GPA.
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luckyme
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Post by luckyme on Apr 13, 2015 19:30:12 GMT -5
Yes, at our HS they placement is determined by unweighted grades, DS is third. But weighted GPA, he is 5th. It was explained to me that weighting benefits the lower scores, so someone in high 80's would get a bigger jump then someone who already had a 95. Or something like that, it made sense when she explained it to me.
Our valedictorian was caught drinking on a school bus for a school trip. She was suspended and should have lost any ranking at all. HOWEVER, her parents are lawyers and politically connected around here, so I am thinking the entire incident is going to be ignored.
When I told DS he might actually have moved up to salutatorian as it stands now, have to wait until close to end of year, he had no interest in it, as he didn't want to make a speech.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 20:20:50 GMT -5
I agree with Steph. I'm not sure if this is the current zeitgeist of the day - that nothing matters. Grad ceremonies don't matter, top honors don't matter. Pray tell - what does matter? And to whom? and who gets to decide on it? I'm stunned that anyone can transfer in mid senior year and take that honor. If the school is not following its own rules, then the friend should definitely be as much a PITA as the transfer student mom who started this ball rolling.... Yes yes, there's only one correct way to feel about things, and only one correct way to celebrate an event, even if nobody in a family enjoys it. Actively choosing to do an event that has personal meaning is saying "nothing matters" I would honestly be pretty uneasy and bent out of shape in the OP's situation, for the reason stated: it was put on applications and would cause stress, wondering if it looked like it was a lie. I've never heard of it happening, but I agree Haapai, I would want written documentation about what happened and that if was an error on the school's end for sure at minimum. Not sure about the rest, there's no pay at stake and I'd rather stay off stages. I'll handle them if required, but speeches are the only things that make my knees shake from fright beforehand, heights don't do that to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 20:46:08 GMT -5
My daughter was valedictorian and my son was salutatorian in high school. They got their picture in the paper, a medal from the school, and my daughter got a valedictorian scholarship to the local university. (My son got a National Merit scholarship so that part didn't matter. But note that my daughter was the better student.)
In other words, there were things attached to the honor. I'm sure my kids didn't really enjoy doing the speech part. But that simply came with the territory.
The mother of the original salutatorian needs to talk with the principal. If that doesn't work, she needs to go to the board. (The father could do this just as well.) This isn't a "kid needs to speak up for him- or herself" sort of thing. The school violated their own rules. At a minimum, her child needs to be co-salutorian.
Few kids can stand up to adult authority figures to the extent needed here. Good students tend to be people pleasers, too. The parents need to step up and be parents. But blabbing and/or complaining to their friends just worsens the situation.
My two cents . . .
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 13, 2015 20:56:52 GMT -5
There area perks to being valedictorian or salutatorian At U of F, those two or more spots usually get in. Other colleges can be the same way. I'd not give it up just because some transfer mommy started bitching
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 13, 2015 20:58:16 GMT -5
Bitch back!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 13, 2015 21:13:20 GMT -5
Btw, even in the stone age when I graduated, non academic classes were non weighted so a kid could take pe or art or music and just enjoy without fear of losing a gpa over it. That also prevented someone who took easy classes from becoming valedictorian because their competition took harder classes. Even then colleges looked only at core classes.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Apr 13, 2015 21:53:21 GMT -5
I agree with Steph. I'm not sure if this is the current zeitgeist of the day - that nothing matters. Grad ceremonies don't matter, top honors don't matter. Pray tell - what does matter? And to whom? and who gets to decide on it?
I'm stunned that anyone can transfer in mid senior year and take that honor. If the school is not following its own rules, then the friend should definitely be as much a PITA as the transfer student mom who started this ball rolling.... It does matter that you do well in school. What doesn't matter after high school graduation is if you were ranked #2 or #3. Either one is pretty darn good. Once you go to college, you are in a whole new world. You get to start over, with a whole new group of people who didn't know you before college. My DS was #11 in his class, but not even in the top 5%. He went to a very small private school (40 students per grade). He got into the college he wanted and received an award for the top student in Economics at a school of >20,000 students. When he was getting all A's in his college business class, no one cared about those few B's in high school.
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 13, 2015 21:55:14 GMT -5
It seems unlikely that the label of "Salutatorian" will make any difference to this young man's college acceptance. He has great grades, has held down a job and battled Crohn's at the same time. Plus, on his college applications he stated he was the Salutatorian (which as several of us have mentioned, the school should back him on if questioned) since he believed he was at the time.
The reality is that the outcome of this kerfluffle will not impact his college acceptance. This is a great chance to talk to the son about the Big Picture and how to decide on picking and choosing battles.
(And frankly, unless we're talking about a fairly crappy high school, the difference in college acceptance rates between the #2 and #3 student is going to be immaterial.)
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 14, 2015 5:56:33 GMT -5
To me that isn't the point. Of course he will get into college. We give out trophies for breathing. But, then when someone actually EARNS a trophy or award or distinction, then suddenly it "doesn't matter".
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Apr 14, 2015 6:30:51 GMT -5
To me that isn't the point. Of course he will get into college. We give out trophies for breathing. But, then when someone actually EARNS a trophy or award or distinction, then suddenly it "doesn't matter". Maybe all the smart people are introverts, so it doesn't matter to them
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 14, 2015 6:39:05 GMT -5
To me that isn't the point. Of course he will get into college. We give out trophies for breathing. But, then when someone actually EARNS a trophy or award or distinction, then suddenly it "doesn't matter". Maybe all the smart people are introverts, so it doesn't matter to them If he Earned it, he earned it.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Apr 14, 2015 6:40:18 GMT -5
Maybe all the smart people are introverts, so it doesn't matter to them If he Earned it, he earned it. He did earn it, but it doesn't mean he cares
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 14, 2015 6:41:09 GMT -5
If he Earned it, he earned it. He did earn it, but it doesn't mean he cares It doesn't mean he doesn't care either.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Apr 14, 2015 6:41:41 GMT -5
He did earn it, but it doesn't mean he cares It doesn't mean he doesn't care either. I agree
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 14, 2015 6:42:55 GMT -5
But, so what? Maybe mom cares? If he earned it, then he should get the distinction. If the other kid won based on grade weights and school policy, then that is fair too. As long as everyone operates under the same rule. But, not sure why people need to belittle the effort to get to this point with a "doesn't matter" as if he should feel guilty for wanting to receive the award he rightly earned.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 14, 2015 6:43:49 GMT -5
We need to give credit, where credit is due. That is how we used to think.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Apr 14, 2015 6:44:33 GMT -5
But, so what? Maybe mom cares? If he earned it, then he should get the distinction. If the other kid won based on grade weights and school policy, then that is fair too. As long as everyone operates under the same rule. But, not sure why people need to belittle the effort to get to this point with a "doesn't matter" as if he should feel guilty for wanting to receive the award he rightly earned. This shouldn't be a factor in the equation.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Apr 14, 2015 6:46:45 GMT -5
We should also realize that even kids are individuals. He shouldn't feel guilty for wanting the recognition, nor should he feel pressured by mommy or anyone else to cause a stink about something (not saying that is happening in this case). As long as he understands the big picture about what is happening, at 17 or 18 he should be old enough to decide how he wants to handle it and can ask adults for help in the execution of whatever he decides.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 14, 2015 6:50:47 GMT -5
But, so what? Maybe mom cares? If he earned it, then he should get the distinction. If the other kid won based on grade weights and school policy, then that is fair too. As long as everyone operates under the same rule. But, not sure why people need to belittle the effort to get to this point with a "doesn't matter" as if he should feel guilty for wanting to receive the award he rightly earned. This shouldn't be a factor in the equation. Um, the "factor" is did he EARN this or not? That is the "factor". He either did or he didn't. If he did, then no, someone else should not be given that distinction because it wasn't earned.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Apr 14, 2015 6:54:26 GMT -5
I think we're basically on the same side but you can feel free to argue all you want. It appears the rules were not defined clearly, so we don't know who earned what. We do know they're both fairly intelligent. The squeaky wheel will likely win, I just think it's up to the kid to decide if he cares or not (either is fine).
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 14, 2015 7:11:13 GMT -5
I think we're basically on the same side but you can feel free to argue all you want. It appears the rules were not defined clearly, so we don't know who earned what. We do know they're both fairly intelligent. The squeaky wheel will likely win, I just think it's up to the kid to decide if he cares or not (either is fine). Funny but one rarely argues alone.
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 14, 2015 7:11:54 GMT -5
I think we're basically on the same side but you can feel free to argue all you want. It appears the rules were not defined clearly, so we don't know who earned what. We do know they're both fairly intelligent. The squeaky wheel will likely win, I just think it's up to the kid to decide if he cares or not (either is fine). Yes. My guess is that the written school policy on the calculation doesn't cover every possible scenario - such as transfer students - and the question of who the award goes to is open to some interpretation. If the policy specifically bars transfer students from receiving the award, then it would be a pretty easy fix for the parents or the student to just bring in the copy of the policy, have a discussion with the school and go from there. If the policy is silent and this is a question of interpretation, then again - this is a great chance to talk to a kid about Big Picture, what matters and picking battles.
If the policy is clear and bars transfer students from being Salutatorian and this is a battle that the student wants to fight, it's a great chance to guide him on how to do that - with facts and going to the right people, starting with the school principal. As a parent, it would be appropriate to work with him on his pitch, emphasizing being professional, respectful and prepared with the facts. As a parent, you'd want to set an example by doing the same things, not "bitching" or becoming the squeaky wheel yelling about how only locals should be considered for awards.
It's interesting that although people have slung insults against the parents of the transfer student, they advocate using the same tactics for the parents of the (now) #3 student. Also, people seem to think there is something inherently wrong with a new student receiving an award. Neither of those things make sense unless you think it's OK for "locals" to behave differently than "outsiders". These are public schools and they are open to anybody who lives within that district. It's bad enough to have to transfer schools during your senior year, why would we want to make it any harder on kids who have no control over where their parents choose to live? Existing students and parents should behave appropriately, as should new students and parents and all should fall under the same rules.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 14, 2015 7:13:07 GMT -5
We expect kids to follow the rules. To live under policies, rules and regs. The School also needs to follow its policies as well. And, since they have a category to designate these titles then they need to clearly follow their own policies and do what they say they are going to do. Or, maybe at the next School Board meetings, I will just shrug at the community and say "What does it matter? It doesn't matter. Nothing matters". We are all gonna die!!!!
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Apr 14, 2015 7:20:54 GMT -5
In an ideal world, if it comes to light that the policy is indeed unclear, it would be nice for the school to acknowledge said loop hole and perhaps deem both tied for 2nd. This solution may not be satisfactory to either party but could be a good solution.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 14, 2015 7:39:48 GMT -5
Look, if my son had won salutatorian, he'd have moved heaven and earth not to speak but I still would have wanted him to receive the honor. If you've earned it, it's yours, and it DOES matter to most people. I find the ones who didn't do well in school seem to be the ones that pooh pooh the importance of those that do. How you did in elementary placed you in middle school. How you did in middle school placed you in high school. How you did in high school placed you in the college you wanted and sometimes the program you desired.
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