Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 1:20:07 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 8:08:09 GMT -5
I wasn't going to post again, because I still haven't talked to her, but I wanted to clear a few things up. She's not "bitching" to the school. She's "bitching" to me, the same way she tells me a lot of stuff that goes on in her and her family's lives. She and her husband both went to the school when they were summoned (call at close to 1pm saying they needed to be there by 2:45, on a weekday of course), but her husband will handle any further communication with whoever. He's a much better communicator than she is in situations and settings like this.
And this student could have come from a school that's only a short drive from this one. There's an elementary school around the corner from me and another one that's less than a 5 minute drive in the other direction. We have a lot of schools, so many that they started closing some of them down a few years ago. All that to say, I doubt there's a "local" and "outsider" factor at play here. This student didn't necessarily move here from another city or even from the other side of this city to transfer schools.
FWIW, my friend said she has a wirtten copy of their policy for determining the valedictorian and salutatorian spots amd it says the student has to have attended that school 9th through 12th grade. Which is unfair to students that transfer, say in 10th grade, but it's the policy. She didn't mention whether it said anything about using weighted scores or not.
If I gave the impression that my friend is the type of person to run around yelling and cursing at people, I didn't mean to. When I say she doesn't communicate well if she gets upset or emotional, it means that she kind of loses her words and gets frustrated to the point that she's holding back tears. She's already upset about it, so her husband is going to do the talking.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 1:20:07 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 8:14:58 GMT -5
In an ideal world, if it comes to light that the policy is indeed unclear, it would be nice for the school to acknowledge said loop hole and perhaps deem both tied for 2nd. This solution may not be satisfactory to either party but could be a good solution. IMO, even if the policy is clear and they just screwed up, I think that at this point they should probably just have both of them as Salutatorians. Especially since it was officially announced and nothing has changed about the original kid's scores to make him fall in rank from where he was when they announced it.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Apr 14, 2015 8:44:13 GMT -5
Look, if my son had won salutatorian, he'd have moved heaven and earth not to speak but I still would have wanted him to receive the honor. If you've earned it, it's yours, and it DOES matter to most people. I find the ones who didn't do well in school seem to be the ones that pooh pooh the importance of those that do. How you did in elementary placed you in middle school. How you did in middle school placed you in high school. How you did in high school placed you in the college you wanted and sometimes the program you desired. I'm very good at public speaking as are both my kids, so desire to avoid making a speech doesn't play into any of my thought process.
I was a top student, National Merit Semifinalist, etc. and my boys have the potential to do the same if not better, so not being able to compete does not play into any of my thought process. I went to, and both my boys go to, a magnet type school where the students not only have to have a tested IQ of at least 130 to attend, they must demonstrate they are achieving several grade levels beyond their current grade or age to be admitted. The kid who is in last place ranking at this school may have better SAT and AP scores than the top student at the local district high school.
There are situations where being in certain ranges is helpful for future placement. And at college, your grades definitely make a difference in program acceptance and future jobs.
However, the idea that the difference between being ranked #2 or #3 in high school is going to make a significant difference in this kids' life, college acceptance or anything else is - IMHO - silly. His college apps are in (and they say he was Salutatorian.) He's not going any further in the public school system. For this particular situation, the issue is solely one of whether or not he personally finds value in this title. He may, or he may not.
As a parent, if it were my kid, the most important thing for me would be for him to do this evaluation for himself and understand the benefits, risks, downsides and effort involved on all sides of the equation. Then develop a reasonable course of action. Reasonable courses could include graciously congratulating the other kid yet still pursuing this with the school in a reasoned, professional manner, congratulating the other kid and letting it go, etc.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Apr 14, 2015 8:45:33 GMT -5
I think there is also perhaps some confusion on terms here. The valedictorian and salutatorian are not rankings in the class. They are simply the students selected to give the valedictory and salutatory speeches at graduation. Often this "honor" is given to the students in the top 2 spots in the graduating class. If they've already told the kids who is giving these speeches, they should just leave it the way it is. That need not have any affect on class rankings, that should still be calculated correctly even if it was announced incorrectly earlier. Heck around here you can forego giving the speech if you want to, they just name someone new. If they name you the valedictorian, and you opt not to give the speech, technically you're no longer the valedictorian...that doesn't change that you might be the #1 rank in your class.
|
|
milee
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2012 13:20:00 GMT -5
Posts: 12,344
|
Post by milee on Apr 14, 2015 8:46:22 GMT -5
LOL! Is this thread getting a bit too....existential? Maybe.
|
|
yogiii
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 19:38:00 GMT -5
Posts: 5,377
|
Post by yogiii on Apr 14, 2015 8:50:43 GMT -5
I think there is also perhaps some confusion on terms here. The valedictorian and salutatorian are not rankings in the class. They are simply the students selected to give the valedictory and salutatory speeches at graduation. Often this "honor" is given to the students in the top 2 spots in the graduating class. If they've already told the kids who is giving these speeches, they should just leave it the way it is. That need not have any affect on class rankings, that should still be calculated correctly even if it was announced incorrectly earlier. Heck around here you can forego giving the speech if you want to, they just name someone new. If they name you the valedictorian, and you opt not to give the speech, technically you're no longer the valedictorian...that doesn't change that you might be the #1 rank in your class. It was not like that at my school at all. Valedictorian was ranked #1, one in the same, you couldn't opt out of the speech.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 1:20:07 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 17:02:11 GMT -5
A lot of schools are going to multiple valedictorians/salutatorians. In large high schools (we have 650+ in our graduating class), the difference may be a few fractions of a point. We are going to some different structure next year. I don't remember what it is even though I teach seniors. I teach "regular" English (sometimes with a side of co-teaching special education students on a different track) so my kids aren't in the running.
I do know that the kids within whatever structure they are implementing are going to elect two of their group members to give speeches at graduation. They won't be called valedictorian, etc.
Kids do like to be the "best," Milee, so don't dismiss that aspect because it didn't matter to you. They like to hear their name called out in front of their peers for positive things. We all like recognition even when it embarrasses us.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Apr 14, 2015 17:13:41 GMT -5
No, they shouldn't both be the Salutatorian. Figure it out who earned it based on the Policy and announce it and apologize for being so stupid to announce it that early in the first place.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Apr 14, 2015 17:18:21 GMT -5
|
|
Annie7
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 8:42:14 GMT -5
Posts: 249
|
Post by Annie7 on Apr 15, 2015 14:17:06 GMT -5
I do know that the kids within whatever structure they are implementing are going to elect two of their group members to give speeches at graduation. They won't be called valedictorian, etc.
This is the way it is in our HS too. They don't really give out the class rankings. However the top 3 highest GPA holders are voted on by the Senior class. The winner gets to give the speech at graduation. My DS1 was the highest GPA (ever in the history of the school) but he was not the one to give the speech. The second highest kid did it.
On a side note - during graduation a girl sitting next to DS1 asked the person on her other side who had the highest GPA. That person told her he (DS1) was sitting next to her So, not everyone even knows who the highest GPA holder is.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Apr 15, 2015 15:19:36 GMT -5
You knew the top ten in my high school. I only know because the ten highest were sat according to rank. Everyone else sat alphabetically. I was an S so I was way in back and they came and got me. We were called first then it went alphabetical after that. I didn't have a chance to tell my parents so they were kind of stunned by me being out of order.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 1:20:07 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 16:34:35 GMT -5
I asked my friend about this today. The school is sticking with the weighted scores, which means the transfer student is #2 and her son is #3. Her son doesn't want to keep dealing with it, he just wants to graduate and be done with it. So they aren't going to push the issue anymore. I asked about the college applications and she said they got a letter from the school. I don't know the exact wording, but she said it says the school made a mistake and I guess the rest of it is enough to show that her son didn't intentionally misrepresent himself on his applications.
She's still disgusted with the school but she and her husband are letting it go now because their son just wants it to all be over with.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Apr 15, 2015 18:43:01 GMT -5
That's too bad. I think it's the wrong call but its not mine to make.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 12, 2024 1:20:07 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 19:55:45 GMT -5
That's too bad. I think it's the wrong call but its not mine to make. What would you do? I think what the kid wants matters too. He knows his parents have and will continue to stand up for him, but he's ready to let it go and move on. Would you keep pushing anyway?
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Apr 15, 2015 19:58:54 GMT -5
It sounds like the School made the decision.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,912
|
Post by zibazinski on Apr 15, 2015 20:06:27 GMT -5
Because it isn't right. Because some mom bitched and another mom caved, something that's wrong gets perpetrated. It says plenty.
|
|
taz157
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 20:50:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,940
|
Post by taz157 on Apr 15, 2015 20:14:48 GMT -5
That's too bad. I think it's the wrong call but its not mine to make.
|
|
973beachbum
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,501
|
Post by 973beachbum on Apr 16, 2015 7:31:51 GMT -5
Because it isn't right. Because some mom bitched and another mom caved, something that's wrong gets perpetrated. It says plenty. IMO people don't actually move on so much as stop fighting. This is the type of thing that in ten or twenty years the student or his parents will see a picture or hear the name of the transfer student who was made saludatorian and refer to him as the kid who "stole" the their honor. Just because someone stops fighting now doesn't mean it will ever be okay or forgotten.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Apr 16, 2015 8:45:24 GMT -5
No, they shouldn't both be the Salutatorian. Figure it out who earned it based on the Policy and announce it and apologize for being so stupid to announce it that early in the first place. Why though? There's almost zero impact to having 2 people both give the speech. It's not class ranking, it's speaking to the commencement audience...do people really care that much about that?
|
|
Value Buy
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 17:57:07 GMT -5
Posts: 18,680
Today's Mood: Getting better by the day!
Location: In the middle of enjoying retirement!
Favorite Drink: Zombie Dust from Three Floyd's brewery
Mini-Profile Name Color: e61975
Mini-Profile Text Color: 196ce6
|
Post by Value Buy on Apr 16, 2015 8:51:04 GMT -5
You knew the top ten in my high school. I only know because the ten highest were sat according to rank. Everyone else sat alphabetically. I was an S so I was way in back and they came and got me. We were called first then it went alphabetical after that. I didn't have a chance to tell my parents so they were kind of stunned by me being out of order. You were an "S" before you became a "Z"? Your slipping!
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Apr 16, 2015 9:34:24 GMT -5
No, they shouldn't both be the Salutatorian. Figure it out who earned it based on the Policy and announce it and apologize for being so stupid to announce it that early in the first place. Why though? There's almost zero impact to having 2 people both give the speech. It's not class ranking, it's speaking to the commencement audience...do people really care that much about that? The person that scores HIGHER is the Salutatorian. Not sure what is so difficult to understand about that? Or should we have 50 "valedictorians" too?
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Apr 16, 2015 9:42:40 GMT -5
The right thing to do is to look at the Policy and then determine who deserved the honor and apologize and announce it and then it is done.
|
|
movingforward
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 15, 2011 12:48:31 GMT -5
Posts: 8,386
|
Post by movingforward on Apr 16, 2015 9:48:05 GMT -5
But how long do you fight over something like this. The kid wants it to be over with and is probably embarrassed by the whole situation. Sometimes a person has to let things go and move on with life.
|
|
CarolinaKat
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 16:10:37 GMT -5
Posts: 6,364
|
Post by CarolinaKat on Apr 16, 2015 9:51:38 GMT -5
But how long do you fight over something like this. The kid wants it to be over with and is probably embarrassed by the whole situation. Sometimes a person has to let things go and move on with life. You fight until the kid says 'enough.' It's his honor.
|
|
movingforward
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 15, 2011 12:48:31 GMT -5
Posts: 8,386
|
Post by movingforward on Apr 16, 2015 9:52:52 GMT -5
Yep, and the kid has already said enough. People are making it more about what the parents want than what the kid wants.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Apr 16, 2015 9:55:52 GMT -5
Why though? There's almost zero impact to having 2 people both give the speech. It's not class ranking, it's speaking to the commencement audience...do people really care that much about that? The person that scores HIGHER is the Salutatorian. Not sure what is so difficult to understand about that? Or should we have 50 "valedictorians" too? No, the person who gives the salutatory is the salutatorian. In this case apparently they give it to the #2 in the class. That's simply a selection process though, not the definition. If 50 people were involved in giving the valedictory speech, then you'd have 50 valedictorians. If the #15 in the class gives the valedictory speech, they are the valedictorian. Some schools have the speech given by the class president, or a person particularly interested in giving that speech, or given to a special student they want to honor. How the speech-giver is selected could be anything. You're confusing the role with the criteria upon which the person is selected for the role. People who don't understand the system seem to want to think salutatorian is some academic honor...it's not. It's just a fancy sounding name many people misunderstand. It might as well be called "speech giver"...which is why I don't see the issue with saying "you can both give the speech". It's fine that the school chose not to, they have their own parameters for selecting the speech giver. I just don't see the big deal since it's just giving a speech. Frankly, I wouldn't care if the entire class participated.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Apr 16, 2015 9:59:47 GMT -5
It's given out in most schools as an academic honor. Sooo, if you want to choke on Webster, then have at it.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Apr 16, 2015 10:00:55 GMT -5
I really don't understand why there is always so much angst about allowing someone to receive an honor they actually earned? Amazing.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Apr 16, 2015 10:45:33 GMT -5
It's given out in most schools as an academic honor. Sooo, if you want to choke on Webster, then have at it. I know, it's terrible that I actually know what words mean, instead of whatever fictional definition you've given to a word. Maybe this is the problem with our educational system. There are actually people out there ignorant enough to think that Valedictorian and Salutatorian are academic honors. And when confronted with their ignorance, their response is that they've simply made up a different definition. Nobody EVER has to be wrong, when wrong, simply claim that you are right because you've changed the meanings of words to fit your cause.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Apr 16, 2015 10:55:06 GMT -5
I really don't understand why there is always so much angst about allowing someone to receive an honor they actually earned? Amazing. Because many of us don't consider talking to people at graduation to be an "honor". I was valedictorian, it wasn't a big deal. I had to do extra work writing a speech. I wouldn't have even done it except my parents wanted me to and paid me off. Giving the speech or not had no effect on me being ranked #1 in the class. I know for a fact the 2 classes before me, and the 2nd class after me had someone other than the #1 in class give the valedictory. As with many things, it's only a big deal to everyone who wishes it was them.
|
|