swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Mar 20, 2015 13:57:27 GMT -5
Thanks for the grammar lesson, you need to talk with autocorrect. And I'm over arguing with you. If you think there's no way for a drunk person to be raped then well I guess that's what you think. A drunk person can be raped...but a drunk person that gave consent was not raped. but that's not what the law says. Drunkeness can impair the ability to consent. Where that line is is a question of fact for the jury.
I don't want my kid to be testing that line.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 13:59:22 GMT -5
A drunk person can be raped...but a drunk person that gave consent was not raped. but that's not what the law says. Drunkeness can impair the ability to consent. Where that line is is a question of fact for the jury.
I don't want my kid to be testing that line.
There are plenty of laws that I disagree with. I find this law to be beyond stupid. I see it as a law looking to punish men for a woman's stupid choices. I'm not talking where she is unconscious and clearly unable to consent...FFS, no one would get fucked on a Friday or Saturday night if drunk people were off limits!
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 14:01:03 GMT -5
you said: and I'm wondering why you would ask that in response to my post. If you've been reading any of my posts, I haven't said anything close to "don't hold the bad drink makers responsible since the drinkers didn't have to drink them". Is there some sort of script running in here that causes "everyone should take responsibility for their actions and personal safety" to read "well, you deserve to be taken advantage of if you let your guard down"? They are not the same, regardless of how much you apparently want them to be. Explain to me the point of saying "Everyone should be responsible for their own safety" when I say "People should not get others drunk with the intent of taking advantage of them."
"People should not get others drunk with the intent of taking advantage of them." "Everyone should be responsible for their own safety"
To me that really reads like victim blaming.
AGAIN, it would be victim blaming if I only said "the drinker shouldn't have had the drinks." But that's not what I said, is it? Why is giving the drinker even a hint of responsibility victim blaming? And at what point do we absolve the drinker of all responsibility? Sometime before the end of the first drink?
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Mar 20, 2015 14:01:13 GMT -5
but that's not what the law says. Drunkeness can impair the ability to consent. Where that line is is a question of fact for the jury.
I don't want my kid to be testing that line.
There are plenty of laws that I disagree with. I find this law to be beyond stupid. I see it as a law looking to punish men for a woman's stupid choices. I'm not talking where she is unconscious and clearly unable to consent...FFS, no one would get fucked on a Friday or Saturday night if drunk people were off limits! whether or not I disagree with the law is irrelevant. it is currently the law. I don't want my kids arrested because of a misunderstanding of consent with a drunk person.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:01:43 GMT -5
So am I supposed to stop saying people should be held accountable if they purposely provide copious amounts of alcohol to someone with the intent of taking advantage of them? You are supposed to stop suggesting that the only person liable is the one providing the drinks, and that the one drinking them has no responsibility. Why do I have to say anything about the person doing the drinking? It is completely wrong to try to get someone drunk to take advantage of them. Unlike other conversations going on, I'm not in a grey area of 2 drunk kids getting together. I am talking about a situation of clear predatory behaviour. I don't see why I need to mention the behaviour of the prey.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:02:46 GMT -5
There are plenty of laws that I disagree with. I find this law to be beyond stupid. I see it as a law looking to punish men for a woman's stupid choices. I'm not talking where she is unconscious and clearly unable to consent...FFS, no one would get fucked on a Friday or Saturday night if drunk people were off limits! whether or not I disagree with the law is irrelevant. it is currently the law. I don't want my kids arrested because of a misunderstanding of consent with a drunk person. I'm not disagreeing keeping your kids safe...but I think there needs to be pushback on this law.
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Mar 20, 2015 14:03:52 GMT -5
whether or not I disagree with the law is irrelevant. it is currently the law. I don't want my kids arrested because of a misunderstanding of consent with a drunk person. I'm not disagreeing keeping your kids safe...but I think there needs to be pushback on this law. Good luck on that.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:04:13 GMT -5
You are supposed to stop suggesting that the only person liable is the one providing the drinks, and that the one drinking them has no responsibility. Why do I have to say anything about the person doing the drinking? It is completely wrong to try to get someone drunk to take advantage of them. Unlike other conversations going on, I'm not in a grey area of 2 drunk kids getting together. I am talking about a situation of clear predatory behaviour . I don't see why I need to mention the behaviour of the prey.I'm confused...is this guy pouring the drinks down her throat? Putting GHP in her drinks? How is he getting her to drink the drinks without her express consent to drink? I am honestly not following your logic....
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2015 14:04:25 GMT -5
but that's not what the law says. Drunkeness can impair the ability to consent. Where that line is is a question of fact for the jury.
I don't want my kid to be testing that line.
There are plenty of laws that I disagree with. I find this law to be beyond stupid. I see it as a law looking to punish men for a woman's stupid choices. I'm not talking where she is unconscious and clearly unable to consent...FFS, no one would get fucked on a Friday or Saturday night if drunk people were off limits! If you have to be drunk to have sex on Friday or Saturday night, maybe you are doing it wrong.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:05:22 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing keeping your kids safe...but I think there needs to be pushback on this law. Good luck on that.
I don't have boys so I don't have a monkey in the circus.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:06:06 GMT -5
There are plenty of laws that I disagree with. I find this law to be beyond stupid. I see it as a law looking to punish men for a woman's stupid choices. I'm not talking where she is unconscious and clearly unable to consent...FFS, no one would get fucked on a Friday or Saturday night if drunk people were off limits! If you have to be drunk to have sex on Friday or Saturday night, maybe you are doing it wrong.
I don't have to be drunk ever...I just happen to like to be drunk
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 14:06:16 GMT -5
"... getting someone drunk ..." I can understand it being a crime if you are arguing that they are being held down and having alcohol poured down their throat. I can understand it being a crime if you are arguing that they are having a drug other than the one that they are told is be offered inserted into their drink. But how does a person get someone drunk?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:08:29 GMT -5
I'm confused...is this guy pouring the drinks down her throat? Putting GHP in her drinks? How is he getting her to drink the drinks without her express consent to drink? I am honestly not following your logic.... Because when it's convenient for Later (and others of her ilk) women have no control or autonomy of their bodies and are incapable of making decisions. And that is why I will never label myself a feminist...I prefer to accept responsibility for my actions rather than blame some stupid guy for "preying on my stupid little self"....
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 14:11:28 GMT -5
And in a bar where almost everyone is drinking, is everyone a potential rapist/victim? I mean if people accepting drinks aren't responsible for their actions, then a man accepting a drink from a bartender and a woman accepting a drink from a bartender aren't responsible for their ensuing actions. So if they have sex, is it mutual rape? Or do the rapes cancel each other out?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 14:13:37 GMT -5
You are supposed to stop suggesting that the only person liable is the one providing the drinks, and that the one drinking them has no responsibility. Why do I have to say anything about the person doing the drinking? It is completely wrong to try to get someone drunk to take advantage of them. Unlike other conversations going on, I'm not in a grey area of 2 drunk kids getting together. I am talking about a situation of clear predatory behaviour. I don't see why I need to mention the behaviour of the prey. If the drink was drugged or the drinker was somehow coersed into drinking, then I'd agree with you.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Mar 20, 2015 14:14:22 GMT -5
I found the attachment in the Opening Post neither amusing or witty.
It paints women as air-headed idiots and men as animals with no control over their actions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:15:13 GMT -5
you said: and I'm wondering why you would ask that in response to my post. If you've been reading any of my posts, I haven't said anything close to "don't hold the bad drink makers responsible since the drinkers didn't have to drink them". Is there some sort of script running in here that causes "everyone should take responsibility for their actions and personal safety" to read "well, you deserve to be taken advantage of if you let your guard down"? They are not the same, regardless of how much you apparently want them to be. Explain to me the point of saying "Everyone should be responsible for their own safety" when I say "People should not get others drunk with the intent of taking advantage of them."
"People should not get others drunk with the intent of taking advantage of them." "Everyone should be responsible for their own safety"
To me that really reads like victim blaming.
And this is why I was hesitant (for about 2 seconds) to post earlier. I am completely uninterested in blaming the victim when he or she is violated by someone else. But I also believe people should take care to not put themselves in potentially bad situations. However, whether that person exercises that kind of care or not, it doesn't give anyone the right to violate them, nor do they "deserve it" if someone takes advantage of their vulnerability. I really don't understand why talking about taking reasonable care to avoid bad situations usually takes us down the path to victim blaming.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:16:46 GMT -5
I found the attachment in the Opening Post neither amusing or witty.
It paints women as air-headed idiots and men as animals with no control over their actions. Keep reading the thread because apparently women can't be trusted to even make a simple choice as when to stop drinking...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:17:08 GMT -5
Later, are you suggesting that a person can go out and drink whatever they want and have no responsibility for what they do while drinking? The responsibility lies solely upon the one 'providing' the drinks?
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Mar 20, 2015 14:20:12 GMT -5
I have read the entire thread, Miss Tequila. I'm really surprised at a few of the comments.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 20, 2015 14:20:25 GMT -5
Explain to me the point of saying "Everyone should be responsible for their own safety" when I say "People should not get others drunk with the intent of taking advantage of them."
"People should not get others drunk with the intent of taking advantage of them." "Everyone should be responsible for their own safety"
To me that really reads like victim blaming.
And this is why I was hesitant (for about 2 seconds) to post earlier. I am completely uninterested in blaming the victim when he or she is violated by someone else. But I also believe people should take care to not put themselves in potentially bad situations. However, whether that person exercises that kind of care or not, it doesn't give anyone the right to violate them, nor do they "deserve it" if someone takes advantage of their vulnerability. I really don't understand why talking about taking reasonable care to avoid bad situations usually takes us down the path to victim blaming. That is all I was saying about 8 pages back...but by saying that I became a victim blamer and rapist sympathizer.
Any women that is raped (truly raped...not "I got drunk and fucked a guy I wouldn't have spoken to sober so therefor I was raped") is a victim, whether her back choices put her in the position to get raped or not. If I put my suburban ass in the middle of the ghetto at 3 am and get shot, I am still a victim. My poor choices put me in a position where I got shot but the only person to blame is the person that shot me. But that sure as hell doesn't mean that I really should have not put myself in that position.
I find it offensive that women truly think other women are so stupid and incompetent that we need to create BS laws to protect us from ourselves.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 20, 2015 14:20:38 GMT -5
Later, are you suggesting that a person can go out and drink whatever they want and have no responsibility for what they do while drinking? only if the drinker is a woman.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:27:34 GMT -5
Because when it's convenient for Later (and others of her ilk) women have no control or autonomy of their bodies and are incapable of making decisions. And that is why I will never label myself a feminist...I prefer to accept responsibility for my actions rather than blame some stupid guy for "preying on my stupid little self"....
So you don't even think it is possible to get someone drunk? That anyone that drinks more than they realise, or is sensible, when being provided with free alcohol is stupid?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 20, 2015 14:28:48 GMT -5
A drunk person can be raped...but a drunk person that gave consent was not raped. but that's not what the law says. Drunkeness can impair the ability to consent. Where that line is is a question of fact for the jury.
I don't want my kid to be testing that line.
I agree with you Swamp, but forget about the law for a minute - what about basic decency?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:29:23 GMT -5
And that is why I will never label myself a feminist...I prefer to accept responsibility for my actions rather than blame some stupid guy for "preying on my stupid little self"....
So you don't even think it is possible to get someone drunk? That anyone that drinks more than they realise, or is sensible, when being provided with free alcohol is stupid? YOU are saying they are stupid... as you are saying they have no control over their behavior or decisions...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:30:28 GMT -5
So you don't even think it is possible to get someone drunk? That anyone that drinks more than they realise, or is sensible, when being provided with free alcohol is stupid? what does the cost of the drinks have to do with anything It is easier to lose track when you are not paying for drinks yourself.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:32:41 GMT -5
Boy brings take out and a bottle of wine to girl's house. Girl drinks 3/4 of a bottle of wine and they agree to have sex and do. Next morning she wishes they hadn't... She IS responsible for her decisions? Or he is responsible for her decisions?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 20, 2015 14:33:44 GMT -5
And that is why I will never label myself a feminist...I prefer to accept responsibility for my actions rather than blame some stupid guy for "preying on my stupid little self"....
So you don't even think it is possible to get someone drunk? ... No, they get themselves drunk unless the alcohol is poured down their throat forcefully.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2015 14:34:04 GMT -5
So you don't even think it is possible to get someone drunk? That anyone that drinks more than they realise, or is sensible, when being provided with free alcohol is stupid? YOU are saying they are stupid... as you are saying they have no control over their behavior or decisions... I am saying people can drink more than they realise or intend when someone is plying them with alcohol. That does not make them stupid, it makes them prey of predatory behaviour.
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swamp
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THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Mar 20, 2015 14:34:29 GMT -5
Real case: Bar tender gives a girl drinks, she's having a bad day, and he wants to "make her feel better." Makes them about 3/4 times stronger than a usual bar drinks. She has about 4 drinks that he gives her, so more like 12. A guy sitting at the bar makes some comment about "what are you trying to do, dude, kill her?"
She gets all sloppy drunk. Takes her up to the apartment above the bar. Attempts to have sex with her. He gets charged with rape.
Is he guilty of rape, or did she consent because she voluntarily drank what he gave her?
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